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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7391858 - 09/10/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So if someone else chooses to cause me harm, I must now redefine myself by their actions? No, someone who is raped is NOT to blame for the actions of the rapist, but they are responsible for how they choose to explain the experience to themself. If they choose to say "I am A VICTIM," they have just given over their power and selfhood to someone else. If they say "I experienced a harmful and difficult event," they retain their power & can choose to define themselves by their own terms.

Yes, rape is a crime. No one who has been raped is to blame for what their attacker chose to do. No one on this thread has claimed otherwise. The story (which I doubt is true) of Pema Chodron's behavior towards the men who raped her is about choosing how we respond to the events we cannot control. Responsibility is not about blame, but about personal choice and internal power.


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OfflineLion
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392175 - 09/10/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Because that is what they are. This should've invade and define their entire identity, but to claim that someone who was raped is not a victim seems violently absurd.


People who have been raped are not victims - a victim is not who that person is. They are human beings who have been victimized - past tense. Creating an identity out of that victimization leads only to further suffering.

Not meaning to preach, as I do myself have several incidents in my life, particularly involving the legal system, which make me feel like a victim. It is hard for me to let go of these things, trifling though they are compared to something like rape, but letting go is indeed the way to...go.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Edited by Lion (09/10/07 02:51 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: shakercee]
    #7392422 - 09/10/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
Quote:

The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.




Are you saying that one requisite for a woman to reach the top is to have been raped or physically abused? :confused:




No! I am saying women who accept they were victims of a terrible crime do much better than women who believe they're responsible for being sexually assaulted. (You'd be surprised how many people blame themselves rather than the rapist.)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392450 - 09/10/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There was a typo which makes an incredible difference in what I said.

"This should've invade and define their entire identity..." was supposed to read, "This shouldn't invade and define their entire identity..."

No, people should not redefine themselves as victims, but they should realize they've been a victim of a crime. You can consider yourself a victim without that label consuming your entire identity.

On the other hand, from what I can observe, most people end up redefining themselves in some way or another after being sexually assaulted, whether they intend to or not. It is such an intense and traumatic experience that to not have your outlook on life forever changed by it seems miraculous.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392561 - 09/10/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Again, I simply do not see the benefit of labeling oneself a victim.  :shrug:  Is it not enough to recognize that you've survived a difficult experience?  There have been many events in my life which could be described as victimization, yet I do not call myself a victim.  It is a powerless term, with no endpoint and no possibility of resolution.  :thumbdown:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392578 - 09/10/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

There have been many events in my life which could be described as victimization, yet I do not call myself a victim.




This sentence contradicts itself?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392617 - 09/10/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No it doesn't.
Choosing not to consider yourself a victim, even if this is what you were at a moment it time influences in a very powerful and obvious way your state of mind. I think it coincides with the moment when one is claiming back his power and strength, which would be otherwise vanish if one would have chosen to consider that they are victims.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392683 - 09/10/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No contradiction.  I said that the events could be described as victimization, not that I did describe them as such.  They were just crappy things that happened, and I was involved. :shrug:

I suppose it is just my preference to veer away from the passive stance. When I consider my circumstances, past and present, it seems more powerful to frame events as opportunities to respond.  Victimhood is a passive reaction to difficult circumstances, and that approach does not work for me.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392714 - 09/10/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can a dead 9/11 victim reframe the incident in their mind to become a non-victim?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392720 - 09/10/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mind?  What mind?  :wink:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392763 - 09/10/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for making my point. It IS possible to be a victim.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392769 - 09/10/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

To whomever,

Once been a victim doesn't mean that in the future, in same circumstances, one still will be a victim.
So this is only making one a victim in the past, not in the present, regarding something what happened.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7392792 - 09/10/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes but you live in the present, not in the past.
Also thinking that you were once were a victim means that you can always find a "refuge" in that frame, any time something unfortunate happens to you.
The victim mentality is highly addictive to the psyche and any indulgence towards it can make one take huge steps backwards in difficult moments.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392804 - 09/10/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Thanks for making my point. It IS possible to be a victim.




No, I think that the point was that it is not possible to think when you're dead.  :lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392815 - 09/10/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

For some that is a Herculean task while alive. :yesnod:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392845 - 09/10/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7392868 - 09/10/07 05:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Once having been a victim imho reduces the chances of being a victim again, 'in general'.
So once a victim, now an opponent ? :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7392910 - 09/10/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well not really.
I mean I do agree with you on the fact that once you've gone through something tough, you learn something and then you try to do your best to prevent it from happening again.
But why to label yourself as a victim? Cause that's what I was arguing about.
You can learn your lessons without considering yourself a victim. It just draws too many self destructive attitudes and thoughts if you do so.
Someone who considers him/her self a victim would have the impulse to generalize it, live in the shadow of the past as a current and constant reminder for every discomfort they might encounter. This is not a desirable attitude.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7392953 - 09/10/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All my replies were meant to not consider oneself a victim in the now, of course :smile: They meant the opposite. To not forget once one was a victim, but now, never again :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7393011 - 09/10/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Bug: "If we wallow in self-loathing enough, if we curse the Heavens for putting us here, we'll get our way."

No need to curse the heavens...
Why not find these shapshifting reptilian alien bloodlines??:uptosomething:
Set your sites right??:evil:
Hey if King Cuppa turns out to be bogus.
I'll have set my sites safely on nothing.:boxerface:
Problem solves itself.:shrug:
I want to learn how to spit fireballs.:idea:


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