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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineLion
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One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe
    #7389521 - 09/09/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think this is one of the biggest lies we tell ourselves: That by being unhappy, by feeling sorry for ourselves, we will get what we want; If we wallow in self-loathing enough, if we curse the Heavens for putting us here, we'll get our way. It can be really subtle, a comfortable little bit of self-pity, or it can be an all-out depression that you refuse to shake yourself out of.

Try to become aware of whether you do this or not. I know I do.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7389557 - 09/09/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think I'm lucky and I think I'm pretty neato!


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OfflineViveka
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7389590 - 09/09/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's even more sinister than that. I think many people adopt a victim disposition, not necesarily "on purpose", but there are definitely lots of choices made along the way. This victimhood actually gives people power over others, or at least a sense of power. People can use their victimology to exploit the empathy of others. They may also use it to manipulate those around them or ply others to their will according to the predictable dynamics of human behavior. Almost everyone has one or more experiences in their life that can set them up to potentially adopt victimhood. It is critical that we are aware of this and we root any trace of this victimology from our psyche.

It seems the best choice is to always take accountability for one's own situation, for even if one has been subject to the tyranny of another, no one else can truly take responsibility for your life than you.


Also, your post made me think of something else. I know that when I was an adolescent and would indulge in negativity or victimhood, I constantly saw the opportunity to let just let it go, even if only for the time being, but I would almost always choose to perpetuate it and hold on to it. Reflecting back on it, I think it was because at some level I felt that if I could just express the anguish by my thoughts and actions at the right time or right place, I might find resolution...somehow.


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OfflineLion
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Viveka]
    #7389618 - 09/09/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:smile: :thumbup: Good thoughts.

I am guilty of this a lot of the time.

I heard a great story the other day, though I cannot vouch for its accuracy because I didn't do any research.  It was related to me thusly:

Pema Chodron, the Vajrayana Buddhist who is a famous author and the leader of the Gampo Abbey monastery, was on her way to the airport, when two men assailed her intending to rape her.

Immediately she took control.  "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect.  The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly.  She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7389660 - 09/09/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think that you express deep seated insecurities.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7389690 - 09/09/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ditto for you.

:shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7389699 - 09/09/07 08:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Pema Chodron, the Vajrayana Buddhist who is a famous author and the leader of the Gampo Abbey monastery, was on her way to the airport, when two men assailed her intending to rape her.

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.


Don't you just love those urban legends.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7389703 - 09/09/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Ditto for you.

:shrug:




Excellent comeback.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7390241 - 09/09/07 11:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I think that you express deep seated insecurities.




Let's not personalize the discussion, please.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7390409 - 09/10/07 12:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

if im not mistaken, i believe that having fits of depression / pity / etc. can be an addiction, like cutting, or smoking, or overeating - all of which are unhealthy.

It's simply a period of losing control, then regaining it - or better example, a buildup of stress, and release (more importantly, release of endorphins and the like).


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinenaysayer
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: kotik]
    #7390694 - 09/10/07 03:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Another lie i believe we tell ourselves: That the unhappy are living any less than the happy. By being unhappy we are missing out on something, and wasting time. I personally don't believe in wasted time.


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Invisiblecloudtripper
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Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: naysayer]
    #7391143 - 09/10/07 09:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.




No, hospital treatment for internal injuries, no life long scares, no children as a result, amazing. What shame it isn't like that for all rape _victims_. Now, was it due to her actions that she was raped in the first place do you think ?

Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391178 - 09/10/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No, hospital treatment for internal injuries, no life long scares, no children as a result, amazing. What shame it isn't like that for all rape _victims




:whoa:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391207 - 09/10/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
Quote:

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility. 




No, hospital treatment for internal injuries, no life long scares, no children as a result, amazing.  What shame it isn't like that for all rape _victims_.  Now, was it due to her actions that she was raped in the first place do you think ?

Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.




:thumbup:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391227 - 09/10/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
Now, was it due to her actions that she was raped in the first place do you think ?




No. Rape only manifests due to the choice of the rapist.

Quote:


Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.




And what is that, their identity of victimhood? What good is that?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391314 - 09/10/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.




The last thing they have left?  :confused:  You mean everything they had before they were raped is gone?  Now they can only identify themselves permanently as victims, and receive pity from the rest of humanity?  This simply makes no sense to me.

No, someone who is raped did not cause themself to be raped, anymore than a child causes themself to be abused, or a civilian causes themself to be bombed during a war.  They are experiencing a course of events in which they happen to have been included.  Does this mean that their identity has now been determined?

The point here is not to blame people for events beyond their control, but to discuss what they might choose to do afterward.


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Invisiblecloudtripper
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7391452 - 09/10/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The last thing they have left? :confused: You mean everything they had before they were raped is gone? Now they can only identify themselves permanently as victims, and receive pity from the rest of humanity? This simply makes no sense to me.

No, someone who is raped did not cause themself to be raped, anymore than a child causes themself to be abused, or a civilian causes themself to be bombed during a war. They are experiencing a course of events in which they happen to have been included. Does this mean that their identity has now been determined?

The point here is not to blame people for events beyond their control, but to discuss what they might choose to do afterward. 




Sure, but to say they arn't victims or are victims due to their own bad choices (ie their own fault) is to take away the recongination of what has happened (which is important to them) and then possibly to take the help and support that a victim needs.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391635 - 09/10/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who has said that someone who has an event forced on them, whether that event is rape, being run over by a drunk driver, being shot by an armed robber or being abused by a parent or partner, is at fault for the event?  If I am struck by lightning while biking home after work, am I somehow a victim of bad weather?  Or am I at fault for biking home?  :confused:

Why is it beneficial in any way for someone to identify themself, or by identified by others, as a victim?  How will removing the event from one's identity result in a loss of help or support in dealing with the aftermath of the event?

Let's take the example of being run over by a drunk driver--will the hospital's Emergency Room turn away the injured party if they fail to say "I am a victim of a drunk driver"?  If they seek counseling later in order to resolve their feelings about the event, will the counselor reject them as a client if they do not claim victim status?

Do you understand the point?  No one truly benefits from claiming to be a victim, and recovering from traumatic events is not furthered by establishing who is the victim and who is the perpetrator.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7391732 - 09/10/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Who has said that someone who has an event forced on them, whether that event is rape, being run over by a drunk driver, being shot by an armed robber or being abused by a parent or partner, is at fault for the event?




This crazy lady.

Quote:

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.




Quote:

Why is it beneficial in any way for someone to identify themself, or by identified by others, as a victim?




Because that is what they are. This should've invade and define their entire identity, but to claim that someone who was raped is not a victim seems violently absurd. I can't imagine anything more coldhearted and cruel than telling a victim of sexual abuse that nothing wrong was done to them.

Unfortunately, I know more than one person who has been raped (one out of seven women is raped in their lifetime.) The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7391746 - 09/10/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.




Are you saying that one requisite for a woman to reach the top is to have been raped or physically abused? :confused:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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