|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7391097 - 09/10/07 08:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If you get injured or get cancer and your insurance gives you a quarter million dollars in health services.... that money is coming from everyone else's premiums,THEN how are YOU not being the person you're complaing about? How are YOU not then being the the person that everyone else is paying for?
Imagine a lottery where you can pay $1 a week and have a chance to win a million dollars every week. Now a group of people come along and ask to be allowed to win the million, but they don't want to pay the $1 a week because "insert excuse here". Now you still have to pay your $1 per week for a chance to win, but the chances of you winning are much less because of all the people that play that aren't paying.
> How are YOU not then being the the person that everyone else is paying for?
Because I pay into the "cause" compared to everybody else that gets it for free. That is the difference.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7391763 - 09/10/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
>Because I pay into the "cause" compared to everybody else that gets it for free.
That's a valid complaint. In fact... that's one of the only complaints I have against illegal immigration. Illegals use are hospital services. I wouldn't care so much about it if they actually paid taxes instead of sending all their money overseas.
So as long as the people covered under a universal health care system are TAXPAYERS then you'd have no complaints? At least as far as giving all taxpayers the basic emergency and medical services to survive (emergency room, baby delivery, generic prescriptions, etc)?
Edited by BrAiN (09/10/07 01:32 PM)
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7392838 - 09/10/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
EVEN IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE you're paying for other people. How is it any different if we have a uniervsal health care system covered in taxes?
they are different in that under the private system, what you pay is based on your likely burden on health services (which is exactly what it should be based on) and in a government system, it's based on how much money you make.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7393168 - 09/10/07 06:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I thought this was going to be a rant about socialism. Instead I see a loser's lament. Will someone please explain to me why a group that has the least use for health care is so fucking gung ho to have to pay forever for something they may never need. Don't bother telling me that if it's "free" people will take better care of themselves. I was covered for 15 years by my ex wife's HMO, from 25 to 40. Guess how many times I went for a physical. ONCE. And that was when she said I was losing my hearing because of rock and roll (my hearing was better than hers, I just couldn't stand to listen to her).
And why the fuck does anybody think the government will perform this service more efficiently when absolutely nothing it does ever outperforms the private sector?
And why do so many of you think that this will be a boon to you? Are you so invested in your own future failure that you don't think you will be able to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES? Fucking losers before you even start. Ptooey, what a bunch of pussies.
--------------------
Edited by zappaisgod (09/10/07 06:43 PM)
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7393298 - 09/10/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So as long as the people covered under a universal health care system are TAXPAYERS then you'd have no complaints?
I would have one fewer complaint. There are still other issues... for example, if I choose to eat transfat soaked bread everyday for every meal, why should I get the same "government" health benefits as somebody that takes very good care of her body?
My real gripe with universal health care is that it is simply another "Robin Hood" movement; something which I find inherently unconstitutional. Nowhere in the US constitution does it give congress permission to take wealth/property from one group of the population just to give it to another group of the population. I would much rather see the government get smaller, and let me decide what to do with my money, rather than get bigger, and decide how best to spend my money for me. I would much rather spend $2400 a year on health care that I decide upon rather than giving the government $2400 a year in taxes and taking whatever health care they decide to return to me.
It amazes me that (in general) people will trust the government to look after their health care, and in the same breath condemn the government for faking Bin Laden tapes and executing the events of 9/11.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 19 days, 10 hours
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7393468 - 09/10/07 07:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
First of all you analogy doesn’t hold water, because assuming that the Lottery you are talking about is similar to any of the current state lotteries, you still have about a 1 in 300,000,000 chance to win regardless of how many people play. Second I think it is rather silly to compare winning the lottery to getting sick and “winning” the money required to make you healthy again. That might just be a semantic argument, so maybe it is just my preference.
Secondly all of the government funded health care be it veteran medical assistance, to the insurance given to our politicians is more efficient than ANY of the private insurance companies I have ever researched. So you could consider the efficiency savings as the $1 that everyone puts in.
More over the whole principal of insurance is to diversify risk among a large population of people. A single payer health care system would do that more efficiently, with fewer middlemen, less advertising, and more direct control, than any single private insurer could offer.
It blows my mind that anyone can trust the government enough to protect us from hostile nations, support the faith biased currency in our pockets, and implement a fair judicial body, but not support a states job to insure public health. At least in a government I have a say. Compare that to a corporate entity in which I have no say, and regularly makes money from denying coverage that is due. I say give me the government.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7393627 - 09/10/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said:
Quote:
So as long as the people covered under a universal health care system are TAXPAYERS then you'd have no complaints?
I would have one fewer complaint. There are still other issues... for example, if I choose to eat transfat soaked bread everyday for every meal, why should I get the same "government" health benefits as somebody that takes very good care of her body?
My real gripe with universal health care is that it is simply another "Robin Hood" movement; something which I find inherently unconstitutional. Nowhere in the US constitution does it give congress permission to take wealth/property from one group of the population just to give it to another group of the population. I would much rather see the government get smaller, and let me decide what to do with my money, rather than get bigger, and decide how best to spend my money for me. I would much rather spend $2400 a year on health care that I decide upon rather than giving the government $2400 a year in taxes and taking whatever health care they decide to return to me.
It amazes me that (in general) people will trust the government to look after their health care, and in the same breath condemn the government for faking Bin Laden tapes and executing the events of 9/11.
Again.. how is this different from me paying thousands in tax dollars over my lifespan for fire services that I never use that goes towards an idiot that drops a cig and burns his housedown ... he doesn't get a bill.. and i end up paying for his shit.. how isn't that a robin hood idea where I just flip HIS bill?
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7393640 - 09/10/07 08:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
--
Edited by BrAiN (03/13/08 12:19 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: zappaisgod]
#7393656 - 09/10/07 08:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
--
Edited by BrAiN (03/13/08 12:20 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Smackshadow]
#7393729 - 09/10/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
--
Edited by BrAiN (03/13/08 12:20 PM)
|
allreadyused
The Liquor


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 480
Loc: Trailer Park, Nova Scotia
Last seen: 8 years, 23 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7394362 - 09/10/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I'm a Republican. The only chance I ever get to vote for them is in the primary elections. The big problem with the Repulicans it the party is controlled by religous conservatives; just as bad as islamic extremists if you ask me. Who bombs abortion clinics? I', really more of a liberterian but I like to vote in the primaries that's why I'm not registered as a liberterian. As far as universal healthcare I'm all for it. I like the idea of socialism but for it to work everybody in the country has to be on the same page and I don't think society has evolved to that point yet. In fact I know it hasen't. But I'm ok with the system we have now. I'm cool with capitalism though. I like the idea of having material posessions and in great abundance.
-------------------- Everything I say is for entertainment. Fuck the ASPCA
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7395134 - 09/11/07 04:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
> the insurance given to our politicians is more efficient than ANY of the private insurance companies
Since you bring up politicians, look at the disparity between retirement benefits for congress provided by the government versus retirement benefits for everybody else provided by the government. Look at health care and you will see that congress gets the best health care my tax money can buy. Comparing with the current system of retirement/social security to a system of government health care, it is easy to see that everybody else would get the crumbs that were left over after congress had their fix. Claiming that the existing health care that congress gets would extend to all citizens with the advent of universal health care is ludicrous.
> Again.. how is this different from me paying thousands in tax dollars over my lifespan for fire services
That is a different topic for another thread. You are assuming that I support tax dollars for fire services. (I don't have a problem with fire services for public property, but feel that their costs for use on private property should be reimbursed by the property owner rather than taken from taxes.)
> just FUCK the conversation about the whole humanitarian side for a second.
Why, exactly, should the government be forcing its citizens to be humanitarian? A government should be protecting its citizens right to be humanitarian if they so choose. Leave the humanitarian decisions with the communities, not with the federal government.
> At least in a government I have a say. Compare that to a corporate entity in which I have no say, and regularly makes money from denying coverage that is due. I say give me the government.
Personally, I don't need a babysitter to take care of me. I am mature enough to take care of myself. I don't understand people that want the government to act like mommy and daddy, telling them what medicines to take, what doctors to see, what time to get up, etc.
You have much more say with corporate entities that you are pretending. As a shareholder in a public company, you get to vote on company policy. Employees can get together and form unions to ensure their voices are heard. Consumers can boycott a companies goods.
With the government, you have no say, except to vote. Why are drugs illegal? Why are we at war in the middle east? Remember Bush saying something along the lines of "I don't listen to public opinion. I'm the decider and I do what I want." This is the voice you have in the government.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7395190 - 09/11/07 05:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You have much more say with corporate entities that you are pretending.
I'm sure you have more say with the government as well, if you stop pretending. If people would stand up they could change the whole establishment, but they chose to have a babysitter telling them what to do.
Shareholders and consumer boycott? So the vote of the wealthy should outweigh the vote of the poor? Sounds like a good democracy you've got going there.
I live in a nation with universal health care, and I can decide what doctor I want to see, what medicin I want to use. As a patient I also have a say.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Arp]
#7395225 - 09/11/07 06:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
> If people would stand up they could change the whole establishment
China, North Korea, Cuba, etc, all being great examples where the people stand up and change the whole establishment. Works really, really well.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7395261 - 09/11/07 06:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I thought Americans were better than letting things turn into a 3rd world style dictatorship?
Is that the best thing Americans can accomplish, is that what you are saying?
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Arp]
#7395277 - 09/11/07 06:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Not at all. I am saying that people (in general) have a lot less control over their governments that you seem to think. If it were so easy to "stand up" and "change the whole establishment", then these countries would have done so long ago. Although America has a representative democracy, the American citizens are just as impotent to make sweeping changes as the citizens in these other countries.
> I live in a nation with universal health care, and I can decide what doctor I want to see, what medicin I want to use.
You can see any specialist you want, no questions asked, no strings attached? You can use any medicine you wish, not having to select from a list of government approved medications? Both questions assuming that your government is paying for all expenses. I don't know where you live, but I doubt you have as much freedom as you are claiming. I could be wrong.
Edit: Found this, written in 1998, so a bit dated...
Quote:
All hospitals are teaching hospitals. For the patient, this means that when the doctor does his/her daily rounds he/she may be accompanied by a crowd of nurses and interns.
There is somewhat of an assembly line mentality among physicians that most Swedes do not question, but which can be hard for Americans to accept. Americans who are used to a personal physician or pediatrician, and who are used to taking responsibility for their own health, may have some difficulties adjusting to the Swedish system. Doctors are generally just parts of the assembly line, and one doctor can easily be exchanged for another. Patients are filed into the system, treated and sent home. Doctors in Sweden need not sell themselves to patients. Medical education does not emphasize interviewing and listening skills. They are not accustomed to patients questioning their prescribed treatments. Patients are not expected to know (or want to know) much about their diseases.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
Edited by Seuss (09/11/07 06:41 AM)
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7395349 - 09/11/07 07:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
That text you quoted is somewhat of a horror story and doesn't really reflect the reality. Perhaps it's not like going to a mall and picking your item of choice, but you're not forced to see any particular doctor. Usually one is assigned to your area, but if you want you can change to somebody else. That people would not question whoever physician they go to is because the doctors in general are considered very competent, and if necessary they send you to an expert in the particular field. Those experts include private practitioners (I don't know to what extent, but a great deal of the health system is private, but governmentally funded).
About picking your medicines. Mostly medication is determined by your condition, but there is always a dialog between the doctor and the patient where the patient can influence.
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: Seuss]
#7395380 - 09/11/07 07:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said:Personally, I don't need a babysitter to take care of me.
Touche.
Did I spell that right?
I don't either, but personally I think universal health care would have more economic benefit than the way the system is now. We'll never really know if the actual CARE of a gov't run system will be better, but we could at least, like I said before, have a CAPITALIST system of different agencies competing for the universaal taxpayer money. That way you still get the engenuity of a competitive capitalist system, but still have everyone covered.
I kind of like Bush's social security privitization plan. Whyy? Before we're STILL putting taxpayer money into it so it isn't a TOTALLY private system... we just have private companies running it. You can have a HYBRID system that still works.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7396820 - 09/11/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BrAiN said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I thought this was going to be a rant about socialism. Instead I see a loser's lament. Will someone please explain to me why a group that has the least use for health care is so fucking gung ho to have to pay forever for something they may never need. Don't bother telling me that if it's "free" people will take better care of themselves. I was covered for 15 years by my ex wife's HMO, from 25 to 40. Guess how many times I went for a physical. ONCE. And that was when she said I was losing my hearing because of rock and roll (my hearing was better than hers, I just couldn't stand to listen to her).
And why the fuck does anybody think the government will perform this service more efficiently when absolutely nothing it does ever outperforms the private sector?
And why do so many of you think that this will be a boon to you? Are you so invested in your own future failure that you don't think you will be able to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES? Fucking losers before you even start. Ptooey, what a bunch of pussies.
Not exactly a loser's lament. I cover both sidfes of the spectrum. I run my own business. I pay 100% of health insurance premiums for both my fiance (my employee) and I... and I pay for the BEST care I can get... I dish out 600 bucks a month for both of us. I rarely use health services because I'm healthy as a horse.. yet I don't mind paying the extra because I like the knowledge of knowing I have only 2000 dollars in maximum ot of pocket cost per year... and my fiance has big health problems which probably offset the cost that I pay.
I really don;t think anyone here has and MBA degree, but as far as I can tell.. it just makes sense to me that if I can get her problems taken care of NOW while she's in her mid 20's... it'll cost me LESS in the long run becuase she won't have her health issues neglected for 20 years until it's too late and she ends up sucking 50k a year in medicare anyways. Why not fix her while she's young which will make EVERYONE's health care cheaper?
I don't know what her problems are but I do know that an MBA is not who should be figuring into the equation. Aside from that, I am clearly not speaking about some one idiosyncratic case but to the larger young healthy population that seems to be clamoring for this. Neither I nor my ex wife ever received anywhere near value. Nor did anyone I know. But that is also idiosyncratic, my own small personal knowledge. I don't think that "fixing her while she's young" should entail the least bit of input from gummint. Put it in gummint hands and they just might say they'd rather pay later and hope she dies beforehand. I'm just saying.Quote:
Plus... I don;t know if you guys know it, but as a business owner I know this. If I pay you 400 bucks a month, you pay about 80 of that in taxes. I, as a business owner, have to pay 130 bucks on TOP of that in my own taxes on what I pay you. We already have a system in the U.S. where we get taxed 50-60% of our income, we just don't realize it because the corporation pays MOST of the taxes. A LARGE chunk of that goes to workman's compensation.
This is ANOTHER tax we're already paying for that goes directly to a universal health care system. So on top of the 100 a month YOU already pay in premiums... Most companies will match your 100 and raise you 50, an extra 150, like I said, they could have paid you in salary. So you're already getting fucked out of 250 bucks. Add another in 50 dollars that your company pays a month in workman's comp which is based on a % of how much your salary is, and you're really paying 300 dollars in health insurance... you just don't know if because it only FEELS like you're getting charged 100.
300 bucks a month. That's a lot of money you didn't even know you were getting fucked out of in the first place.
If universal health care were enacted... even if you paid 200% more in health insurance premiums than you do now (which, for most americans i 100 a month), you'd be paying 300 a month, which is the amount your're REALLY paying already. Like I said. You just get screwed out of it so stealthily, you don't even know it.. like a sorority chick on roofies at a rave.
Just remember this. On average. It costs most a company 180% of your salary to employ you. If you ger paid 20K a yearl Your company, between health insurance they cover, taxes (which goes partly towards workman's comp) and extra benefits is basically forking out 36K a year. abou 5K of that ends up eventually in some sort of health care system.
Ummmmm no, employers, though saddled with an extra tax bill for Fica, don't pay that much more. First of all, workman's comp is not a tax and second of all the rates are not simply determined by the payroll. They vary wildly depending on what the employee does. A roofer pays a huge percentage for the guys on the roof but almost nothing for office personnel. Matching FICA is around 7.5% so the total for FICA (soc sec + medicare) around 15%, half of which is shown as a deduction from the employees pay. Unemployment is a percentage, usually around 5, of the first 6 or 7 K in gross pay. Disability is negligible. Of the almost 15% that is FICA only 3% is medicare. Workmen's comp is not health insurance by any stretch, it is liability insurance for the company. Thus only about 3% is actually taken for health insurance currently and the only beneficiaries of that are the elderly and the indigent. Out of a $400 check about $12, counting employer contributions, goes for any kind of socialized medicine. Unemployment rates are determined by employer history and out of a $400 gross check would end up being only around 1-2% annually. Where did you come up with those numbers? As a construction contractor my break even point is about 133% of gross payroll and that's with a 15% comp rate and overhead for filing. 180%? Bullshit.
--------------------
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger


Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
|
Re: To all republicans: a quick rant about socialism [Re: BrAiN]
#7397062 - 09/11/07 04:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BrAiN said: A question for all those AGAINST paying a little extra in taxes for UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, to all your republicans who think socialism is evil and lazy: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgetting to turn your oven off and having taxpayers pay your $50,000 in services in perfectly fine as long as the cost is YOUR OWN FAULT.... right? I mean.... I don't hear you conservatives complaining about the way your taxes get sent to fire departments.
But getting cancer by accident which ISN'T YOUR FAULT and having taxpayers pay your $50,000 bill must mean you're a socialist, communist weasel who hates America, right?
That makes perfect sense.
Fucking asshole hypocrates.
-> BrAiN -> registered libertarian
* socialism can be a great tool for american when helping fellow citizens in time of need.
* socialism is wrong when it is used to help welfare queens crank out babies just to get another check to pay the bills
------------------------
Do you really think health care taxes would cost any more than the 300 dollars a month in health insurance you pay NOW?
-------------------------
Don't you think that insuring a young, poor person now so they can get preventative care for cancer for $5,000 will cost you LESS in premiums than waiting until that poor person finally can AFFORD care than waiting until that person has a descent job at the age of 50, and having your premiums pay for all his $50,000 a year health care coverage now that he's insured by YOUR company?
-------------------- You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
|