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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom
#7389014 - 09/09/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you post here because you are wise and want to try and express that wisdom through language in hopes that other people can learn from you? Is it wise to be trying to help people through such a limited medium as a message board?
Do you post here because you are uncertain of who you really are and your place in the world and debating intellectually makes you feel more secure? If you lost a debate, would your whole self-hood be in jeopardy?
Do you post here because you have come to certain conclusions in life and now you get amusement out of those who have not reached the same conclusions? Is it a mischievous game?
Do you lurk/post here to gain knowledge of ideas and concepts or to compare and get a new appreciation for your paradigm and someone else's paradigm?
I know I've seen these questions posed here before, but I think it is always interesting to ask these questions. I expect a lot of answers like "I post here because I am bored" and "why not?" but then I wonder if these people are being honest.
Now that I think of it, I think "Do you... because" is a wrong way to go about this. I guess the question is more of what is your attitude when making a post.
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rodfarva
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7389054 - 09/09/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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often, my most complicated thoughts are un palletable during everyday conversation. Normal interaction is usually limited to talking about events and other people. This is a non-embarassing place to discuss ideas. Thoughts about new ground are discussed the least between people in person.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7389321 - 09/09/07 07:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I post here because I have no self-restraint.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7389328 - 09/09/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I post for all those reasons. I doubt anyone posts for just one reason.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7389360 - 09/09/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I post here to save lost souls.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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Lion
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Grok]
#7389439 - 09/09/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can't tell whether you're being serious or not.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Lion]
#7389470 - 09/09/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's mostly why we all post here. I think that most of us think we have the best idea of what the "truth" is. I know I do that and it looks like just about everyones ego is hooked into that kind of gratification.
The interesting thing is when you look deeply into the bottom line reason why we feel the need to do this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7389482 - 09/09/07 07:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have no pretensions about saving anyone or passing on the truth to others. I think most of the posts I make here are just to get some kind of feedback so I'll know where I'm at in terms of the way I react to criticism, rejection, acceptance, etc. Sometimes I do think I'm being especially clever or being really helpful, but I accept that I'll only ever know the relevance of the things I say to me; they may or may not be useful to other people's paths.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Lion]
#7389556 - 09/09/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: I can't tell whether you're being serious or not.
Then consider yourself unsaved.
Quote:
Icelander said: The interesting thing is when you look deeply into the bottom line reason why we feel the need to do this.
I've been thinking about that a lot lately. Like what is our hangup with trying to get others to believe as we do. On a personal level I see myself doing this, and I understand why I do it...but looking at large scale belief assimilation forces, like the Mormon church. the media, etc...what drives this?
What it comes down to is that we all know that large groups of people with similar beliefs and therefore, likely, motivations, have a lot of power. Power to create change, which really is something we're all hung up on. How this power is used, the effect it has on leader's ego, and the changes that such groups seek are largely irrelevant. If you had the truth, and could get everyone on the planet on the same page...I dunno, doesn't that about make you God or something?
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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Lion
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Grok]
#7389630 - 09/09/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Then consider yourself unsaved.
:( 
Quote:
Power to create change, which really is something we're all hung up on.
Amen. I am so in love with the idea of having spiritual power: the power to be inscrutable, the power to drive others' egoic minds to their wits' end - to surrender.
The people with the real power are people who would never admit it and who would laugh at you if you praised them for it.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Lion]
#7389711 - 09/09/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have no pretensions about saving anyone or passing on the truth to others.
I suggest you look a little deeper.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7389737 - 09/09/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Grok]
#7389746 - 09/09/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've been thinking about that a lot lately. Like what is our hangup with trying to get others to believe as we do. On a personal level I see myself doing this, and I understand why I do it...but looking at large scale belief assimilation forces, like the Mormon church. the media, etc...what drives this?
What it comes down to is that we all know that large groups of people with similar beliefs and therefore, likely, motivations, have a lot of power. Power to create change, which really is something we're all hung up on. How this power is used, the effect it has on leader's ego, and the changes that such groups seek are largely irrelevant. If you had the truth, and could get everyone on the planet on the same page...I dunno, doesn't that about make you God or something?
I have given this much thought and posted on this in the past. I think it's a form of death anxiety. The human unhealthy ego structure is verrrrrry fragile. It lives in fear of not being in total control of the self. It believes itself to be the whole of the self. Any threat (this includes being wrong about the most mundane things) is fear creating for an ego who defends its omnipotence by never being wrong about anything. Any unhealthy ego that has to face it's fallibility cannot uphold it's illusion of being the whole of the self. Only a perfect ego can convince itself that it will never end (die). Death is the egos biggest fear. This gets pretty subtle as the ego has many ways of convincing us that it doesn't think this way, but if you really study yourself you will find the thread and if you follow them you might just agree with what I'm proposing here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Lion]
#7389762 - 09/09/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: Thanks.
Yeah bro I'm recycling old material. It's like a late Sunday night standup set, the crowd is small and I just want to go home and get some sleep.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7389773 - 09/09/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm good at questioning whether my body might not really be immortal.
I think that's what the 2012 thing is about partly - people who don't want to have to experience physical death unless it is part of a great transformation of consciousness, the complete end of form and return to Oneness.
The ego is an aspect of the divine mind, unlimited consciousness: it is the Divine Mind's fear of death. It's what 'we' are. Shiiiiiiiit. And this trip is about shedding that fear, or surrending to it. We are all one.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7389797 - 09/09/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, what you are talking about is what I mean by ontological insecurity, I see you call it death anxiety.
I was reading up on some psychology last night, specifically a book called "the divided mind" about people with fragmented or fragile egos. Basically it said that the ego has a number of strategies for maintaining status quo. Some people can appear to disagree externally but their "inner self", their true beliefs remain untouched because they depersonalize themselves from reality so that they can convince themselves of any fantasy even if it is completely contrary to reality, reality being what is objectively true from the standpoint of a healthy ego. Something like that...
I'm jealous of people with such strong egos that they KNOW they will never die. I think this is what the real goal should be of psychological and spiritual development. A fragile ego doesn't know anything because it does not know itself. It only knows a number of beliefs about ITself and other THINGS. It's really a pity.
edit: In response to Bug, you cannot be a ONE until the ego has a solid base. Without a solid base you are always at the risk of being divided.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7389848 - 09/09/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's funny... I think it might actually come down to how many possibilities you can handle. Or maybe not handle, but willing to accept. An unhealthy ego is a terribly small closed loop, because it sucks everything into itself, reducing everything into one point. It's a paradox.. the more you take in to your self the less you can handle, go to fast too soon and you lose everyone. A healthy ego is always letting go, and so it expands into the surrounding area. A closed loop is a dot, and a dot is no more than a spot, a location. An open loop would be something like a wave, and a wave is so much more than a spot, it's more like a journey.
Nah, i'm just talking out of my ass now.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7389932 - 09/09/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I post here because I am a wise-ass.
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shakercee
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7391212 - 09/10/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you lurk/post here to gain knowledge of ideas and concepts or to compare and get a new appreciation for your paradigm and someone else's paradigm?
That's the one for me.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7391713 - 09/10/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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For me, the 'environment' here seems comforting
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392246 - 09/10/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm jealous of people with such strong egos that they KNOW they will never die.
I think you have it backwards. I would envy those who can fully accept the reality of their personal death and still live a life full of gusto and challenge without morbid attachment to their fear of death. As far as I know no one knows what happens after we die.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392286 - 09/10/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, I have to disagree. The ideal ego state is to exist without even having the concept of death in your inventory - to know that death is a myth and that we live and die every second. I don't believe one can live a life full of gusto and challenge without first completely disbelieving in death. The reason why people fear death is because they believe it actually happens and this paralyzes their will - everything becomes a possible threat that could kill them.
It sounds like we are saying the same thing but from your words "fully accept the reality of their personal death" I get a sense of resignation. Like, you think that the way to get past the fear of death is to think about it and resign yourself to the conclusion "Okay, I'm going to die someday. This will motivate me to try and squeeze the most life out of every moment!" It just doesn't work that way, Icelander.
Death, at some point in one's life, has to be seen as an illusion and then they are no longer attached or detached from death because it doesn't even matter. Full acceptance of a lie is detrimental to one's mental state.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392288 - 09/10/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
I'm jealous of people with such strong egos that they KNOW they will never die. I think this is what the real goal should be of psychological and spiritual development. A fragile ego doesn't know anything because it does not know itself. It only knows a number of beliefs about ITself and other THINGS. It's really a pity.
Please do not feel envious for any reason, especially of the deluded. All people die. The embodied ego-mind dies. The Eternal Present is available to anyone's awareness in varying degrees at any given moment. Only the Eternal dwells eternally. Egos are not eternalized. The human mind with its data base of experiences, stored as memory, perishes. Just as well. The egoic mind which boasts of going to Heaven simply harbors an idea in mind. Nobody goes anywhere and Heaven or Eternal Life is found in the Eternal Present if it is found at all. "The Kingdom of Heaven is spread out before you and people see it not." "Nirvana is Samsara, Samsara is Nirvana."
I used to believe (my first mistake) that longevity was important because it gave one 'more time' in which to become enlightened. I was wrong and it was Eckhart Tolle who showed me that I was wrong. Despite all my years of reading and contemplating, I learned that enlightenment is not attained, and therefore it does not depend on time. Enlightenment is Realized in each moment. It is the egoic mind which rejects the ecstatic Realization that, as Alan Watts wrote, 'This Is It,' because the ensuing ecstasis blows away (or, classically, 'blows out') the ego. Nirvana means 'blowing out,' like a candle flame, the obscuring egoic mind leaving the Pure Awareness of our true nature, Eternal Life. It is not our Eternal Life, it is simply Eternal Life. What the ego does not have is personal immortality, the delusion of multitudes of believers in most traditions.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392317 - 09/10/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, I have to disagree. The ideal ego state is to exist without even having the concept of death in your inventory
Lets deal with only the things that are possible. What's the use in your statement if it isn't possible?
How do you know how things work for anyone but yourself? I have found that the more I think deeply about death the less fear I have of it. Then the coping mechanisms I use to deal with death anxiety are more liberal and healthy as far as allowing me to take chances and fully live as I know that I am going to die for sure and it's a given. Death anxiety never goes away IMO. Some people just have better ways of coping with it then others. Life gets it's meaning from death.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392376 - 09/10/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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We all have egos though and it is impossible to live without an ego. Am I wrong to believe that more security in your ego brings more happiness because you know yourself and thus love yourself? Ego as in our mental foundation, which everything is filtered through.
To be enlightened you need to also be strong enough in the mind to know reality, if you become enlightened while you haven't quite figured things out for yourself you take on the assumption that you are Christ and this is a shaky foundation to rest on, be assured. The ego does not have personal immortality but to become enlightened, to reach any kind of enlightenment, you need a healthy ego (healthy body, healthy mind) or it seems you will lose touch with everything. It could be said that underneath our identities are Nothing. But that isn't true. Behind our identities are our personalities, which were formed in our early years. Behind the personality is Being... Now, is it true that Being is always perfect and untouched? Or can you accept the possibility that at some level (down the rabbit hole we gooo), Being is decidedly fragmented and chaotic? What could be seen as the promise of enlightenment to a fragile ego could just as well lead to a frightening psychosis. What I mean is, maybe the One cannot always handle the light, it blinds them and they spend an eternity not in extacy but frightening realities.
Icelander: What I said is entirely possible, nothing is impossible
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392434 - 09/10/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
No, I have to disagree. The ideal ego state is to exist without even having the concept of death in your inventory - to know that death is a myth and that we live and die every second. I don't believe one can live a life full of gusto and challenge without first completely disbelieving in death. The reason why people fear death is because they believe it actually happens and this paralyzes their will - everything becomes a possible threat that could kill them.
But you have the idea of death in your inventory, no matter how hard you pretend you don't. And death actually happens. I am not talking here about esoteric terms because nobody really knows what happens after death, of we still exist in some form or another or not. It feels that we do. But that's not the point. The point is that, in actual terms, from what we observe by living this life, this human experience, is that it ends someday. Liberation in my opinion comes from accepting the fact that this experience ends.
Quote:
It sounds like we are saying the same thing but from your words "fully accept the reality of their personal death" I get a sense of resignation. Like, you think that the way to get past the fear of death is to think about it and resign yourself to the conclusion "Okay, I'm going to die someday. This will motivate me to try and squeeze the most life out of every moment!" It just doesn't work that way, Icelander.
Resignation = submitting (as in submitting one's Will in the face of death)... which leads one to remain uninvolved in the present experience. This comes in contradiction with your following statement: "This will motivate me to try and squeeze the most life out of every moment!". It's only when we accept that our human experience has an end that we finally decide to fully live our lives and enjoy this present existence. What's wrong with "squeezing" the most life of every moment? From my own experience, this is an exhilarating experience. It's where we find joy and it's the best place from which we can set the most fit preferences regarding our lives, setting personal priorities, now that we're no longer limited by lies.
Quote:
Death, at some point in one's life, has to be seen as an illusion and then they are no longer attached or detached from death because it doesn't even matter. Full acceptance of a lie is detrimental to one's mental state.
I disagree. How does ignoring the obvious (death) make one unattached from it? Ignoring a matter doesn't make it go away. You yourself said it: "Full acceptance of a lie is detrimental to one's mental state.". Indulging in the thought that death doesn't exist, in this case, IS the lie.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392448 - 09/10/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can't argue with something that makes absolutely no sense to me. You certainly win this one.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392461 - 09/10/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is only a lie in the context in which you believe that death is real. Death is obvious to us, we know that our lives are going to end someday... but this is limiting to know this. It is possible to KNOW that we will not die and that we will live forever, and this can be just as liberating or restrictive as the belief that we will someday die.
I could accept death everyday but the thought, the knowledge that I will die does nothing to improve my life. As Icelander said, we all still have death anxiety. The choice to live life as full as you can, to squeeze the life out of every moment, has nothing to do with accepting death. It is more based on the attitude that whatever happens, I/you/we will still be here unscathed. So, if one can accept the reality that death cannot harm them, this would be beneficial to living one's life with a healthy ego.
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Icelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392475 - 09/10/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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but this is limiting to know this.
For you maybe.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392497 - 09/10/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Really the whole idea, the whole belief, could be wrapped up in anything. To believe that we die is limiting. It becomes reality just from saying it.
I think I see where you are coming from now, however. You are unconscious of the possibilities Here and Now and so like the idea that you will die someday, it makes things here seem less important, and thus you can create your own meaning.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392531 - 09/10/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is no credible evidence that we do not die, nor is there evidence that it will alter reality whatsoever to believe that we will/will not die. 
You keep saying "KNOW" as though it were more than a guess or wishful thinking to claim that death will not end the consciousness we currently experience as ourselves. If there IS something beyond our biological existence, it is certainly not indicated anywhere in this reality.
Quote:
So, if one can accept the reality that death cannot harm them, this would be beneficial to living one's life with a healthy ego.
Or living one's life within a delusion.
Edited by Veritas (09/10/07 04:27 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392572 - 09/10/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nuh uh!
Apparently you are unfamilar with Deepsix Chopra's book "Ageless Body; Timeless Mind" and Leonard Orr's "The Common Sense of Physical Immortality".
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7392623 - 09/10/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nope, if you do a search, I think you'll find that we discussed both books back when I first started posting here.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392635 - 09/10/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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To believe that we die is limiting. It becomes reality just from saying it.
And does it become reality for a mouse because they say it?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392640 - 09/10/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Being familiar with the title and author does not constitute an understanding of the contents.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7392653 - 09/10/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So you're saying you don't understand those books? Maybe you could read them again as you might have grown in understanding in the last couple of years.
(yeah right)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7392672 - 09/10/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
And does it become reality for a mouse because they say it?
WTF do you think "Squeek, squeek!" in mousese means?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392684 - 09/10/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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A mouse dies because it basically runs into death, it doesn't balance itself. There is no logical reason why humans have to die.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392700 - 09/10/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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And is there a logical reason for mice to die?  What's the difference?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392708 - 09/10/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mice don't have an imagination which can transcend our own perception of it. We do
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392726 - 09/10/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually, there are several logical reasons why humans have to die, you are just unaware of those reasons.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7392733 - 09/10/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: And is there a logical reason for mice to die?  What's the difference?
Why do you think Vulcans live much longer than humans? LOGIC, baby!
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7392735 - 09/10/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Being familiar with the title and author does not constitute an understanding of the contents.
I've read them. What do you want to know?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392737 - 09/10/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Actually, there are several logical reasons why humans have to die, you are just unaware of those reasons.
Please enlighten me.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392742 - 09/10/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'll let Dr. Universe do it for me:
Why do we die?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7392748 - 09/10/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: And is there a logical reason for mice to die?  What's the difference?
Why do you think Vulcans live much longer than humans? LOGIC, baby!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392750 - 09/10/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Actually, there are several logical reasons why humans have to die...
The #1 reason some humans have to die is because of pissing Shmoopy off!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392757 - 09/10/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Being familiar with the title and author does not constitute an understanding of the contents.
I've read them. What do you want to know?
Why you wasted your time?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392760 - 09/10/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't believe in getting my answers from a website on the internet called "Dr. Universe". If I believe that we can live forever, and you believe it, we will bring it closer to reality. Why defend a negative belief, let's strive for something better and support each other.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392780 - 09/10/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: A mouse dies because it basically runs into death, it doesn't balance itself. There is no logical reason why humans have to die.
Really, where do you get this nonsense? Does it just come to you?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392790 - 09/10/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why defend a negative belief,
Death is not a negative belief. You are exhibiting death anxiety by denying death and dealing with it in a fear based way IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7392791 - 09/10/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Have you never seen a rodent with its neck snapped by a mousetrap? That is called 'running into death'.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7392796 - 09/10/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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He was not balanced.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392797 - 09/10/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I don't believe in getting my answers from a website on the internet called "Dr. Universe". If I believe that we can live forever, and you believe it, we will bring it closer to reality. Why defend a negative belief, let's strive for something better and support each other.
Sorry, I won't bother you with the facts again.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392809 - 09/10/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Facts are possibilities. To state a fact is to declare a possibility as the truth. There is a 99.999% chance we will die because so many of us believe in death that it manifests itself everywhere in our physical world. We cause everything that happens in this Universe, I apologize if this is hard to digest.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392810 - 09/10/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are f-i-n-a-l-l-y getting with The Program. How many years has it taken you?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392816 - 09/10/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Facts are possibilities. To state a fact is to declare a possibility as the truth. There is a 99.999% chance we will die because so many of us believe in death that it manifests itself everywhere in our physical world. We cause everything that happens in this Universe, I apologize if this is hard to digest.
You bet bullshit is hard to digest. That's why the bull shit it out. It was worthless.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392823 - 09/10/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bullshit is worthless, from your point of view then? What does this have to do with my post?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392836 - 09/10/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your post is total Bullshit IMO. Not one bit of substantiating evidence for it. It's not easy to debate someone who doesn't feel the need to present evidence for their statements but instead creates them out of whole cloth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392861 - 09/10/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am sorry you see things that way. In science, many things are hypothesized or seen as highly probable before they are ever tested in the lab. It is not widely accepted, but it is nonetheless valid, to be able to create something and then prove it again later. This is what is great about science - the ability to prove something over and over again.
If something is never seen as a possibility it will never be seen to manifest itself in reality.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392869 - 09/10/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Facts are possibilities. To state a fact is to declare a possibility as the truth. There is a 99.999% chance we will die because so many of us believe in death that it manifests itself everywhere in our physical world. We cause everything that happens in this Universe, I apologize if this is hard to digest.
This is beyond "hard to digest." We create death because we believe in it, and mice create death because they are not in balance? C'mon, this is bunk. We are biological entities, born to die, just like all the other biological entities on this planet.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
#7392923 - 09/10/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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[...born to die...] aehm...born to live.
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backfromthedead
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7392930 - 09/10/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey, I know exactly what you are talking about. This is what I feel 2012 is really getting at. Finding the lid. The ability to live within any reality of your choosing. For the benefit of you. Information is crazy. Those that haven't had their realities significantly shaken don't know how fragile they really are. And replaceable. Perhaps. Once this is known its about building a replacement belief system, and entering, if you will. IMO. Believers have a head start. Literally real or not, it loads the bases.
Suppose you control the dream, if you've practiced or have sufficient belief in what seems. As the DMT drowns your life in hallucination(?) Might your next stage be one of your own determination?? Suppose what seems is beans. And these beliefs are just dreams. Might as well elevate your being in the time between.

Oh... I post here because I'm fucking nuts. 
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7393059 - 09/10/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey backfromthedead, glad to see at least someone understands what I'm talking about. We need something more immanentizing than human language. Maybe in 2012 we will learn the ability to sing objects into existence like Terrence Mckenna's machine elves 
The language we use now keeps us in this dense collective conscious reality (or maybe it doesn't), I do not see this kind of consciousness as our future reality.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7393115 - 09/10/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Immanentizing? Did you sing this word into being?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7393133 - 09/10/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That is what the word means and that is what I did.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7393139 - 09/10/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It ain't over till the Fat Machine Elf sings?
Gloooooooooo-ooooooo-oooooo-oooria
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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backfromthedead
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7393174 - 09/10/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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"We need something more immanentizing than human language. Maybe in 2012 we will learn the ability to sing objects into existence like Terrence Mckenna's machine elves "
Indeed. I think it already works. On the screen inside, right?? This is the main stage. Who is headlining tonight?? Are you running the projector?? Surround system?? Backstage pass?? Stand by for sound check.
"The language we use now keeps us in this dense collective conscious reality (or maybe it doesn't), I do not see this kind of consciousness as our future reality."
I hear ya. Its the accepted meanings of words that tile it over. I've found that most words radiate meaning in all ways. Like a ball of potential energy. I love that. I feel that though they are mostly stale, the way in which they are used can be magic. Like a precisely placed collection of mirrors all collectively casting reflected light onto some 'area' that is otherwise shadowed by... Whatever the fuck it is. I often try to listen to conversations without hearing any meaning. Just to listen to the mouth noises that stand in place of these rich, complex, interwoven landscapes of idea. Ultimately what you are transferring is the divine, IMO. The Word is God.
Prophets, IMO, were just good at lighting up people's Christmas trees.
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7395594 - 09/11/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey, you know, even J.K. Rowling had enough of Harry Potter, and she has ended the series. A book without an end, a movie without end would be boring don't ya think. Death makes life interesting. Period.. Nature know what's best.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7395720 - 09/11/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anything is possible. But that is nothing worth debating. That is food for the mysticism forum where one can forgo debate in favor of dreaming of what is possible however unlikely.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#7395750 - 09/11/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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They should allow debate in MRP forum. Dunno why it should be always Aye, aye, aye.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: shakercee]
#7395774 - 09/11/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That forum is for those that do not feel up to having their ideas challenged. That's a good place for those folk. There is no reason why one should have to debate if that's not their gig, but this forum is for debate and one should come here ready to defend their ideas with some kind of evidence and a little bit of common sense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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