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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392246 - 09/10/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm jealous of people with such strong egos that they KNOW they will never die.

I think you have it backwards. I would envy those who can fully accept the reality of their personal death and still live a life full of gusto and challenge without morbid attachment to their fear of death. As far as I know no one knows what happens after we die.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392286 - 09/10/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, I have to disagree. The ideal ego state is to exist without even having the concept of death in your inventory - to know that death is a myth and that we live and die every second. I don't believe one can live a life full of gusto and challenge without first completely disbelieving in death. The reason why people fear death is because they believe it actually happens and this paralyzes their will - everything becomes a possible threat that could kill them.

It sounds like we are saying the same thing but from your words "fully accept the reality of their personal death" I get a sense of resignation. Like, you think that the way to get past the fear of death is to think about it and resign yourself to the conclusion "Okay, I'm going to die someday. This will motivate me to try and squeeze the most life out of every moment!" It just doesn't work that way, Icelander.

Death, at some point in one's life, has to be seen as an illusion and then they are no longer attached or detached from death because it doesn't even matter. Full acceptance of a lie is detrimental to one's mental state.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392288 - 09/10/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:

I'm jealous of people with such strong egos that they KNOW they will never die. I think this is what the real goal should be of psychological and spiritual development. A fragile ego doesn't know anything because it does not know itself. It only knows a number of beliefs about ITself and other THINGS. It's really a pity.





Please do not feel envious for any reason, especially of the deluded. All people die. The embodied ego-mind dies. The Eternal Present is available to anyone's awareness in varying degrees at any given moment. Only the Eternal dwells eternally. Egos are not eternalized. The human mind with its data base of experiences, stored as memory, perishes. Just as well. The egoic mind which boasts of going to Heaven simply harbors an idea in mind. Nobody goes anywhere and Heaven or Eternal Life is found in the Eternal Present if it is found at all. "The Kingdom of Heaven is spread out before you and people see it not." "Nirvana is Samsara, Samsara is Nirvana."

I used to believe (my first mistake) that longevity was important because it gave one 'more time' in which to become enlightened. I was wrong and it was Eckhart Tolle who showed me that I was wrong. Despite all my years of reading and contemplating, I learned that enlightenment is not attained, and therefore it does not depend on time. Enlightenment is Realized in each moment. It is the egoic mind which rejects the ecstatic Realization that, as Alan Watts wrote, 'This Is It,' because the ensuing ecstasis blows away (or, classically, 'blows out') the ego. Nirvana means 'blowing out,' like a candle flame, the obscuring egoic mind leaving the Pure Awareness of our true nature, Eternal Life. It is not our Eternal Life, it is simply Eternal Life. What the ego does not have is personal immortality, the delusion of multitudes of believers in most traditions.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392317 - 09/10/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)


No, I have to disagree. The ideal ego state is to exist without even having the concept of death in your inventory


Lets deal with only the things that are possible. What's the use in your statement if it isn't possible?

How do you know how things work for anyone but yourself?:tongue: I have found that the more I think deeply about death the less fear I have of it. Then the coping mechanisms I use to deal with death anxiety are more liberal and healthy as far as allowing me to take chances and fully live as I know that I am going to die for sure and it's a given. Death anxiety never goes away IMO. Some people just have better ways of coping with it then others. Life gets it's meaning from death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392376 - 09/10/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We all have egos though and it is impossible to live without an ego. Am I wrong to believe that more security in your ego brings more happiness because you know yourself and thus love yourself? Ego as in our mental foundation, which everything is filtered through.

To be enlightened you need to also be strong enough in the mind to know reality, if you become enlightened while you haven't quite figured things out for yourself you take on the assumption that you are Christ and this is a shaky foundation to rest on, be assured. The ego does not have personal immortality but to become enlightened, to reach any kind of enlightenment, you need a healthy ego (healthy body, healthy mind) or it seems you will lose touch with everything. It could be said that underneath our identities are Nothing. But that isn't true. Behind our identities are our personalities, which were formed in our early years. Behind the personality is Being...

Now, is it true that Being is always perfect and untouched? Or can you accept the possibility that at some level (down the rabbit hole we gooo), Being is decidedly fragmented and chaotic? What could be seen as the promise of enlightenment to a fragile ego could just as well lead to a frightening psychosis. What I mean is, maybe the One cannot always handle the light, it blinds them and they spend an eternity not in extacy but frightening realities.

Icelander: What I said is entirely possible, nothing is impossible :wink:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392434 - 09/10/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No, I have to disagree. The ideal ego state is to exist without even having the concept of death in your inventory - to know that death is a myth and that we live and die every second. I don't believe one can live a life full of gusto and challenge without first completely disbelieving in death. The reason why people fear death is because they believe it actually happens and this paralyzes their will - everything becomes a possible threat that could kill them.




But you have the idea of death in your inventory, no matter how hard you pretend you don't. And death actually happens. I am not talking here about esoteric terms because nobody really knows what happens after death, of we still exist in some form or another or not. It feels that we do. But that's not the point. The point is that, in actual terms, from what we observe by living this life, this human experience, is that it ends someday. Liberation in my opinion comes from accepting the fact that this experience ends.

Quote:

It sounds like we are saying the same thing but from your words "fully accept the reality of their personal death" I get a sense of resignation. Like, you think that the way to get past the fear of death is to think about it and resign yourself to the conclusion "Okay, I'm going to die someday. This will motivate me to try and squeeze the most life out of every moment!" It just doesn't work that way, Icelander.




Resignation = submitting (as in submitting one's Will in the face of death)... which leads one to remain uninvolved in the present experience. This comes in contradiction with your following statement: "This will motivate me to try and squeeze the most life out of every moment!".
It's only when we accept that our human experience has an end that we finally decide to fully live our lives and enjoy this present existence. What's wrong with "squeezing" the most life of every moment? From my own experience, this is an exhilarating experience. It's where we find joy and it's the best place from which we can set the most fit preferences regarding our lives, setting personal priorities, now that we're no longer limited by lies.

Quote:

Death, at some point in one's life, has to be seen as an illusion and then they are no longer attached or detached from death because it doesn't even matter. Full acceptance of a lie is detrimental to one's mental state.




I disagree.
How does ignoring the obvious (death) make one unattached from it? Ignoring a matter doesn't make it go away. You yourself said it: "Full acceptance of a lie is detrimental to one's mental state.". Indulging in the thought that death doesn't exist, in this case, IS the lie.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392448 - 09/10/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can't argue with something that makes absolutely no sense to me.:whoa: You certainly win this one.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392461 - 09/10/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It is only a lie in the context in which you believe that death is real. Death is obvious to us, we know that our lives are going to end someday... but this is limiting to know this. It is possible to KNOW that we will not die and that we will live forever, and this can be just as liberating or restrictive as the belief that we will someday die.

I could accept death everyday but the thought, the knowledge that I will die does nothing to improve my life. As Icelander said, we all still have death anxiety. The choice to live life as full as you can, to squeeze the life out of every moment, has nothing to do with accepting death. It is more based on the attitude that whatever happens, I/you/we will still be here unscathed. So, if one can accept the reality that death cannot harm them, this would be beneficial to living one's life with a healthy ego.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392475 - 09/10/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

but this is limiting to know this.

For you maybe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392497 - 09/10/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Really the whole idea, the whole belief, could be wrapped up in anything. To believe that we die is limiting. It becomes reality just from saying it.

I think I see where you are coming from now, however. You are unconscious of the possibilities Here and Now and so like the idea that you will die someday, it makes things here seem less important, and thus you can create your own meaning.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392531 - 09/10/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is no credible evidence that we do not die, nor is there evidence that it will alter reality whatsoever to believe that we will/will not die.  :shrug:

You keep saying "KNOW" as though it were more than a guess or wishful thinking to claim that death will not end the consciousness we currently experience as ourselves.  If there IS something beyond our biological existence, it is certainly not indicated anywhere in this reality.

Quote:

So, if one can accept the reality that death cannot harm them, this would be beneficial to living one's life with a healthy ego.





Or living one's life within a delusion.  :shrug:


Edited by Veritas (09/10/07 04:27 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
    #7392572 - 09/10/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nuh uh!

Apparently you are unfamilar with Deepsix Chopra's book "Ageless Body; Timeless Mind" and Leonard Orr's "The Common Sense of Physical Immortality".


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392623 - 09/10/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nope, if you do a search, I think you'll find that we discussed both books back when I first started posting here.  :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392635 - 09/10/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

To believe that we die is limiting. It becomes reality just from saying it.

And does it become reality for a mouse because they say it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Veritas]
    #7392640 - 09/10/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Being familiar with the title and author does not constitute an understanding of the contents. :razz:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392653 - 09/10/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So you're saying you don't understand those books? Maybe you could read them again as you might have grown in understanding in the last couple of years.



(yeah right)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: Icelander]
    #7392672 - 09/10/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And does it become reality for a mouse because they say it?





WTF do you think "Squeek, squeek!" in mousese means?


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392684 - 09/10/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A mouse dies because it basically runs into death, it doesn't balance itself. There is no logical reason why humans have to die.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392700 - 09/10/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And is there a logical reason for mice to die? :lol:
What's the difference?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Ontological Insecurity or Sharing Wisdom [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7392708 - 09/10/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mice don't have an imagination which can transcend our own perception of it. We do :wink:


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