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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Do other animals ponder existence?
    #7383658 - 09/08/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What do you guys think? Are humans the only ones capable of this? I'm mainly thinking about pets and domesticated animals here. You would think that they could look around in your house and ask themselves:

"How did all this shit get here?"
"How did I get here?"
"Why the fuck am I here?"

Or do they just not care? I mean, I don't know. Maybe I'm being a little too open minded on this one. I know we're supposed to be the only intelligent life forms here (or is it us and dolphins?) but it still seems like something worth a little thought.


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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383704 - 09/08/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Of course, there's no way we could ever really know... but I believe that we're the only ones that do. Honestly, I think that the difference between humans and even our closest ancestors (chimps, apparently) is greater than the difference between chimps and say, a bug, despite the DNA similarity. There's just something special about mankind.


--------------------
:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
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InvisibleTripityDooDaDay
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383709 - 09/08/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I find myself thinking about that a lot. Just what is it that makes us different? Why? What does it all mean?


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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383716 - 09/08/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We are Homo sapien sapien which means we can think about our own thinking. Obviously other animals can think but we are the only animals to be able to truly ponder our own mind and how it works etc. we are the only ones advanced enough to do this.

Thats not to say other species are stupid. Ravens can problem solve and we know that dolphins communicate etc. But nowhere near to the extent that we humans do. This doesn't me we shouldn't treat animals with the utmost respect because they are less intelligent.


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InvisibleSkunk420
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383736 - 09/08/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know they get lonely..but I am sure they do.


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OfflineJunkFood
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383748 - 09/08/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I put headphones on my cat the other day (at a very low volume as I realize cats have a very strong sense of hearing) and put on a cool song, but it seemed to be disturbing him :what:


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Invisibleivi
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383757 - 09/08/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are a way for the universe to know itself.


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: boxcarguy07]
    #7383783 - 09/08/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Especially destructive but with unlimited potential. There is nothing special about humanity. We overestimate ourselves. There are billions of better civilizations in the universe. We aren't that different from our ancestors, either. We only very recently became civilized. Humanity is special because we ponder our own mortality. It is a curse and a blessing at the same time. We create religions to avoid it. We create medicines to slow it down but we all die eventually.


--------------------
“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington



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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: ivi]
    #7383792 - 09/08/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, when I play piano or guitar, my dogs will come over and it seems like they're listening and it calms them down.

My belief is that the difference between humans and other animals is one impossible to measure scientifically... call it a "soul" or "spirit" if you will, but it is some manifestation of the divine... I believe the Gnostics refer to it as the divine spark.


--------------------
:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
            -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:psychsplit:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7383796 - 09/08/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)




"I meow therefore I Am"


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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: robbyberto]
    #7383798 - 09/08/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

robbyberto said:
There is nothing special about humanity.




Quote:

robbyberto said:
Humanity is special because...




???


--------------------
:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
            -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:psychsplit:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: boxcarguy07]
    #7383800 - 09/08/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

boxcarguy07 said:
There's just something special about mankind.




go ahead, keep telling yourself that



Quote:

trepanib said:
Obviously other animals can think but we are the only animals to be able to truly ponder our own mind and how it works etc. we are the only ones advanced enough to do this.





excluding brain sizes and readings, can you really prove that animals aren't able to? We will never be able to get inside an animal's head to the extent of knowing what it is thinking (shit, try doing this with another person and you'll see how difficult it truly would be)


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: boxcarguy07]
    #7383807 - 09/08/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Especially destructive but with unlimited potential. There is nothing special about humanity. We overestimate ourselves. There are billions of better civilizations in the universe. We aren't that different from our ancestors, either. We only very recently became civilized. Humanity is different from other creatures because we ponder our own mortality. It is a curse and a blessing at the same time. We create religions to avoid it. We create medicines to slow it down but we all die eventually.

Better now? Don't nitpick.


--------------------
“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington



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Offlinetrepanib
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: demiu5]
    #7383836 - 09/08/07 02:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

When's the last time you saw 2 animals scientifically studyung each other and their thoughts?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: trepanib]
    #7383845 - 09/08/07 02:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

When's the last time you saw a human spinning a web?


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Asante]
    #7383851 - 09/08/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl2:


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Offlinetrepanib
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Asante]
    #7383916 - 09/08/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Actually during the last ropes course I was on.


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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Asante]
    #7383971 - 09/08/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
"I meow therefore I Am"




:dielaughing:


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7384153 - 09/08/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nobody knows, people who think they know are stupid


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7384616 - 09/08/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well we are about a million times more advanced that any other animal.
How can you not think we are special ? OUr minds are so beyond any other organism. We are the apex of biological evolution.


--------------------
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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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OfflineJunkFood
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #7384628 - 09/08/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The people saying we're not special are just being wiseasses :smirk:


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Offlinemoosehead
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7384630 - 09/08/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Nobody knows, people who think they know are stupid




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Offlinetrepanib
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: moosehead]
    #7384636 - 09/08/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

People do know, you might not, but people in the brain and cognitive science department at MIT do.


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #7384654 - 09/08/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Because we're still fighting over land, archaic religions, and are devastating are planet. I swear I'm not a smelly hippie.


Edited by robbyberto (09/08/07 05:21 PM)


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Offlinemoosehead
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: trepanib]
    #7384720 - 09/08/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no they dont dude. they can see that this area is lit up, and that this synaps is firing and that is about it. you can not tell what the fuck is going on.


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Offlinetrepanib
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: moosehead]
    #7384770 - 09/08/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well you have to have so many synapses firing in order to have comprehension of certain ideas, like your own consciousness. So yeah they know a lot more than that.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: trepanib]
    #7385317 - 09/08/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trepanib said:
Well you have to have so many synapses firing in order to have comprehension of certain ideas, like your own consciousness. So yeah they know a lot more than that.




that is what they say, but again, there is no way to know for sure that animals don't have higher cognitive functions without actually being inside their minds.

who says that maybe a rat only needs one or two synapses to fire to have decision-making thoughts as opposed to humans which would need more? these are things they can't tell you for certain


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7385357 - 09/08/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no

humans have this weird dis/ability where they can think about thinking :|


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Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7385361 - 09/08/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hapPy birthday!


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Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: demiu5]
    #7385979 - 09/08/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

who says that maybe a rat only needs one or two synapses to fire to have decision-making thoughts as opposed to humans which would need more?


Emergent properties (which self awareness may be) and how far they stray from basic principles is proportional to the complexity of the system.  So more complexity = stronger emergence = higher level of consciousness. 

This is just the theory (of course), so before all the hippies start going off about how we can never know anything let me tell them scientists already know that we cant know anything absolutely.  :tongue:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7386000 - 09/08/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

who says that maybe a rat only needs one or two synapses to fire to have decision-making thoughts as opposed to humans which would need more?


Emergent properties (which self awareness may be) and how far they stray from basic principles is proportional to the complexity of the system.  So more complexity = stronger emergence = higher level of consciousness. 

This is just the theory (of course)...scientists already know that we cant know anything absolutely.  :tongue:




but this is all based on observation and comparison, not experience.  But thank you for being the first in this thread to admit the second block of text you typed


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: demiu5]
    #7386025 - 09/08/07 10:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

but this is all based on observation and comparison, not experience.


I don't think there is a difference between observation and experience! But in any case, observation/experience is the best we got (for now) to explain existence. So why not use it?

I wonder how many people here think computers could hypothetically ponder existence? I do. If they get complex enough self-aware properties could emerge out of them.


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Invisibleindica
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7386055 - 09/08/07 11:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

animals are smarter than humans. they know to run when there is a tsunami


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Offlineshitfacedme
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7386112 - 09/08/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JunkFood said:
I put headphones on my cat the other day (at a very low volume as I realize cats have a very strong sense of hearing) and put on a cool song, but it seemed to be disturbing him :what:




when did you realize they had a strong sense of hearing?
:lol:


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Do other animals ponder existence? [Re: shitfacedme]
    #7386198 - 09/08/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's possible for animals to ponder existence. Maybe they're thinking in images and not in soem sort of language, they're remembering and thinking about food, about why they eat, etc. I could imagine that, because what do animals think about when they're at rest and doing nothing? It can't just be blank up there.

But what they truly ponder we may never know. :o


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