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InvisibleUna
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The effect of activated carbon on pinning
    #738105 - 07/11/02 03:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Agaricus bisporus, the button mushroom, only forms pins on a casing layer that has the bacteria Pseudomonas putida in it. Since most soils and peats have theis bacteria in them and the bacteria is unhampered by pasteurisation, almost any type of non-sterile casing will produce pins.

I've read somewhere (i believe in some German book about button mushroom growing) that experiments had shown that this species does not form pinheads on a sterilised casing soil, UNLESS avtivated carbon had been added.

I heard that in eastern parts of Europe button mushrooms, that normally require the presence of Pseudomonas putida, are cultivated with fine charcoal as a casing layer instead of the standard peat based one.

The charcoal somehow makes the presence of these bacteria unnecessary. Possibly some of the substances secreted by the mushroom mycelium are normally digested by these bacteria and this can be replaced by the charcoal which would absorb these substances.
This makes sense since Pseudomonas putida is commerically used for the sanitation of chemically contaminated soils.

Since more species are known to be dependent on certain microorganisms in the casing layer it might also be benificial to hard to grow psilocybian species, i'm thinking of Psilocye tampanensis in particular. Has there been any research into this matter or is it a totally unexplored area?
I've been searching the internet for documents in relation to the subject but i couldn't come up with anything.

Any thoughts?




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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Una]
    #738147 - 07/11/02 05:10 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That's a thought. . .that the pinning effect is caused by the bacteria digesting a mycelium-produced compund(s).
I had thought it would be a product of the bacteria that stimulate the mycelium to pin. . .I don't think it would be too tough to research what compounds P. putida produces in mixed culture, especially if it's been used as a decontaminating agent.
As far as the activated charcoal. . .that really makes sense, that it is the absorption/binding of certain mushroom compound(s) that provides the stimulatory effect. I wonder what activated carbon might be able to provide; Could it provide free carbon? Would regular charcoal [non-activated carbon] have a similar effect?
I'd be interested in looking into this furthur.


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Suntzu]
    #738174 - 07/11/02 05:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Here's a couple links that might be of interest. . . .
I found this observation all over the place, the bacteria has a chemical attraction to the mycelial exudate. One paper even said that the majority of Chantrelle fruitbody tissue has Pseudomonas stuck throughout.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1791431&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1791432&dopt=Abstract

Here's a clip from this place:

http://www.rollins.edu/chemistry/current_summer_projects.html

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Premature induction of fruiting body formation in the edible mushroom, Agaricus bisporus by the exogenous siderophore, ferrichrome A of Ustilago sphaerogena and pyoveridine-type siderophores from various strains of Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Pseudomonas fluorescens.

Of the commercially important genera of edible mushrooms, Agaricus bisporus (common name: white mushroom) constitutes about 70% of the annual world mushroom production. Little is understood about the factors involved in the initiation of the relatively short reproductive phase of the A. bisporus life cycle, that is the induction of formation of the harvestable sporophore or fruiting body of the fungus. Aerobic bacteria and fungi under nutritional stress of iron restriction, synthesis and secrete low molecular weight Fe(III)-specific chelating agents or siderophores that function to acquire and transport iron by high affinity energy dependent transport systems across the microbial membrane.

The objective of current research activity with A. bisporus is to examine the effect of exogenous siderophores on the induction of the harvestable, edible sporophore of A. bisporus. The hypothesis being examined is since these compounds are not biologically active in iron transport in A. bisporus mycelia, they can be used, if present in higher than threshold levels to create an iron restricted environment (sequester all of the iron) from vegetative mycelia of A. bisporus and perhaps prematurely induce their reproductive stage represented by the formation of the sporophore.

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This has promise. . .activated carbon WOULD reduce the amount of free iron floating around, possibly giving the same effect as a bacterial population that does the same.

Iron restriction in the casing layer might be part of the answer.



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OfflineOi812
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Suntzu]
    #1160276 - 12/21/02 02:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I just went out and bought some stuff to do my 5050+ casing and the only crushed oyster shells I could find was a package that had flaked charcoal added to the shells. A friend pointed me to this thread. So would the charcoal have any drawbacks when included with the oyster shells? Would you guys risk using this stuff with your mix or just say f it and use just the hydrated lime alone?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Oi812]
    #1160294 - 12/21/02 02:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I cannot imagine that adding activated charcol would cause any harm, as long as it is clean and fresh. Activated charcol loves to grab aromatic hydrocarbons, among many others... If I were still growing, I would love to give this a try and see what happens.

An easy source of clean activated charcol is the pet store... they use it in some fish tank filters. A small bag is a few bucks, though the particle size is rather large. A quick spin in the spice grinder (or mill if you have one) will fix that problem up.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Una]
    #3043144 - 08/24/04 09:21 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Any results in, Una? I though it might also be beneficial for indoor attempts on P. azurescens and P. cyanescens.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Una]
    #3043183 - 08/24/04 09:45 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

http://www2.hri.ac.uk/view_article.php?c...hers=go&page2=4

"A wide range of casing materials was tested for their ability to support initials under sterile conditions. Activated charcoal, coal, lignite and zeolite all produced initials under sterile conditions. The results indicate that some of these adsorbent casing materials can replace the effect of the stimulatory bacteria, possibly by adsorbing inhibitory compounds produced by the mushroom mycelium which prevent it from fruiting. "


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Una]
    #3044147 - 08/24/04 02:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Agaricus bisporus does not need light to trigger massive pinning although it does use the other triggers, IMO this bacteria/AC maybe only beneficial to non-phototropic species, I see no benefit to cubies what so ever. Now in nature Tamps occurrence is limited to certain regions so what makes the Tampa area different? Trade winds, any things manmade like factories (long ago) or should I say biproducts or any type of natural occurrence like decomposing shell bacteria? I'm sure soil analysis has been done extensively but there is a regional link that needs to be looked into deeper (something must be getting overlooked?) Just adding my $.02 :smile:


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Una]
    #3047256 - 08/25/04 03:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I had experimented with activated charcoal as a casing layer additive in the past with Ps. Cubensis. While I would like to say it improved pinsets, I have no conclusive evidence that it is actually beneficial. It is not hard to get good pinsets with cubensis as it is, so I abandoned the experiments.

Quote:

Anno said:
I though it might also be beneficial for indoor attempts on P. azurescens and P. cyanescens.




This however just sparked my interest in the subject again, which may lead me to future experiments...


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Una]
    #3064574 - 08/29/04 11:02 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This could maybe the step in the right direction of morel cultivation as well. Hence why they love growing in burnt out woods. I have used coal in my experiments but I think a fine layer of activated charcoal would maybe be better.


Which reminds me Anno I found a couple morel cultures that I set aside for you in my fridge. Not sure how viable they are. You still interested?


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3067166 - 08/30/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SHEIKofSHIITAKE said:
This could maybe the step in the right direction of morel cultivation as well. Hence why they love growing in burnt out woods.




Interesting you mention that. I used activated charcoal in the agar medium when I was cloning them last spring. In any case, the difficulty with cultivating morels is in providing the correct environmental conditions, rather than substrate. It is very easy to get mycelium to grow and produce sclerotia, but the conditions needed to trigger primordia are much more difficult and complicated IMO... Especially since I must wait until spring to see the results of this years experiments...

I do not have the capability to try indoor cultivation at this time, but I love morels so much perhaps someday I will...


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: ATWAR]
    #3067670 - 08/30/04 02:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I have found that there is no need for adding it to the agar though.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3072681 - 08/31/04 06:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>Which reminds me Anno I found a couple morel cultures that I set aside for you in
>my fridge. Not sure how viable they are. You still interested?

Definitely!


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OfflineYSr
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: Anno]
    #3209275 - 10/03/04 09:45 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How much activated charcoal is added?

YSr


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The effect of activated carbon on pinning [Re: YSr]
    #3209610 - 10/03/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Not sure, perhaps 5% by volume?


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