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physical pain
    #7358308 -

When you are weak and in a lot of pain you will find out a lot about humanity.

The pain I refer to is any pain that causes significant distress and tension and is a challenge to your nervous system. The kind of pain which makes it impossible to relax.

When I was in a lot of pain from sculliosis, I was in significant distress and people kept telling me that I was selfish, close minded. When I told them about my back pain, they either didn't believe me and thought I was making excuses for various things. I couldn't prove that I was in pain so I forced myself to do things which only put my back in more pain for the sake of fulfilling my "responsibilities" which other people expected me to take on.

I turned psychotic because other people convinced me that I was wrong to feel the way I was feeling and so I believed it too and repressed the intense pain I was in. I tried to act the way I was suppose to be feeling which came off quite ridiculous. My reputation took a huge fall and people resented me for the state I was in, as if they were the victim who had to deal with the pain I was inflicting on them. After getting physical therapy for several months I became much healthier but I found a lot of people still thinking I was the same person as when I was in pain, even though I was acting much saner!

Never believe other people. Other people are ignorant/full of shit. Live life happily if you can, and when you no longer can, hope your family is around because most people won't put up with you.


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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7358438 -

When you are weak and in a lot of pain you will find out a lot about humanity.

But mostly you will find out a lot about yourself. If you look.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: physical pain [Re: Icelander]
    #7358666 -

:thumbup: I would say some of the best learning experiences I've had have come from what I perceived as intense physical pain.  Particularly around the turn of this past New Year.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: physical pain [Re: Lion]
    #7358671 -

That's interesting as it was the same for me at the turn of this year.:mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7358698 -

Do you think you could share some of these lessons or a general idea of what they were, bug? What were the lessons in regard to, your reactions, your perceptions?

One of the things I learned was that when your body tenses up and is in fight or flight mode, people will generally be more fearful of you regardless of your intentions. Two days ago a vertebrae slipped in my neck and I percieve myself being less aware and I feel like I'm not fully myself right now. In what ways do you think I can learn from this right now?

I feel like there is nothing to learn, just endure the pain until I go to my physical therapist.


--------------------

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7358799 -

i can totally understand that cus ive had to deal with a back problem for quite a long time now and its pretty much ruined everything and people tend to view it as if you dont try hard enough or as if its your own choice that youre in so much pain and cannot do what you should or want or need to be doing. its not something i like to talk about much but for the sake of responding here... in my case i wont be able to ever get better though, most likely ill have to stay like this the rest of my life. i have to say i have learned a hell of a lot from it and wouldnt be the same person at all today if i hadnt gone through it though.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:

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Re: physical pain [Re: Locus]
    #7358807 -

I remember some of your earlier posts. It seems you have had a long struggle here. I think it's awesome that you can get to that place where you know you have learned something important, the fucking hard way.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: physical pain [Re: Icelander]
    #7369832 -

Quote:


Do you think you could share some of these lessons or a general idea of what they were, bug? What were the lessons in regard to, your reactions, your perceptions?

One of the things I learned was that when your body tenses up and is in fight or flight mode, people will generally be more fearful of you regardless of your intentions. Two days ago a vertebrae slipped in my neck and I percieve myself being less aware and I feel like I'm not fully myself right now. In what ways do you think I can learn from this right now?

I feel like there is nothing to learn, just endure the pain until I go to my physical therapist. 


Severe and prolonged suffering is not worth lessons, if there are any, other than that it is to be avoided and that you may have empathy with others that suffer in the future.  Suffering can destroy wills, what is the lesson in that.

That's why people get tortured, not to teach them lessons, but to break them .. there is nothing Good in it.

I hope and pray that you Get Well Soon :smile:


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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Re: physical pain [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7370031 -

I disagree. Suffering can cut away a lot of the extraneous anxiety and hang-ups in your life and expose you to what is truly important: unconditional love for the people you spend your time with. It can also teach you not to take your health for granted, a valuable lesson. And prolonged suffering, if it does not lead to death, while I certainly wouldn't wish it on myself or anyone, can lead (or so I suspect from accounts I've read) to the most life-changing realization of all: that pain is an illusion.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: physical pain [Re: Lion]
    #7370157 -

Well I think we would have to disagree on that. Pain isn't an illusion as I am sure the poster of this thread (and millions of other people and sentient beings) will testify to (if they could). Even if one person comes to that decision it doesn't do much for the billions who have had miserable suffering and haven't seen such a realization.

It was Buddha who said life is suffering and ultimately to escape the physical pain in life is to get off the karmic wheel and avoid incarnation ... and he thought about it long and hard.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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Re: physical pain [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7370173 -

Buddha would classify pain as a delusion. And the karmic wheel he was referring to may have been a metaphor for the continual creation of a sense of self in this life rather than in a grander metaphysical sense. I.e. by clinging to your pain and deriving a sense of selfhood from it, you are creating your own suffering. By accepting your pain you see that it is a delusion. I think that is a fairly Buddhist sentiment.

If it has been your experience that pain is not an illusion, so be it. It is my opinion that pain in all manifestations is energy unaccepted by mind, nothing more - and that if mind accepts it, it ceases to be a problem.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7370268 -

EternalCowabunga said:
Never believe other people. Other people are ignorant/full of shit.


Well, you know, this is interesting, because for me, YOU are an-other person. Does that mean you are ignorant and full of shit?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: physical pain [Re: Lion]
    #7370280 -

bug said:
Buddha would classify pain as a delusion. And the karmic wheel he was referring to may have been a metaphor for the continual creation of a sense of self in this life rather than in a grander metaphysical sense. I.e. by clinging to your pain and deriving a sense of selfhood from it, you are creating your own suffering. By accepting your pain you see that it is a delusion. I think that is a fairly Buddhist sentiment.

If it has been your experience that pain is not an illusion, so be it. It is my opinion that pain in all manifestations is energy unaccepted by mind, nothing more - and that if mind accepts it, it ceases to be a problem.


In my experience, pain is created by our minds. We experience a sensation that we interpret as being unpleasant, and then our minds start spinning away, complaining about how much pain we are in, how much nicer it would be to not be in pain, comparing the perceived pain to other pains and other pleasures. As far as the self is concerned, all this spinning IS the self. All this mental activity creates what we experience as 'the self', through the process of our identification and our clinging.

But anyways, I find that if you just let go all the thoughts of pain or discomfort, and just really go deep into the physical sensations, removing the barriers that you've set up to protect yourself from it, then the pain becomes far less. The physical sensations are still there, but the pain is no longer that big of a deal. At least this has been my experiences with pain (especially the kind that develops when you sit completely still for long periods of time, man that is painful!)


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: physical pain [Re: dblaney]
    #7370321 -

Well I'm sure OfflineEternalCowabungaS will be happy to hear to that.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7370705 -

I am learning some newfound empathy and acceptance but this has been based on my realization that pain IS real and being unhealthy in body leads to being unhealthy in mind.

In a way, I think dblaney and cloudtripper and bug are all right. This pain is unpleasant but it's "not a huge deal" if I can accept it. On the other hand, I don't know what to call this if it isn't pain, and it's affecting my sleep and concentration and it is impossible to take deep breaths so I don't think it is an illusion in the sense that I could ignore it or embrace it and automatically become fully healthy again.

Quote:
if mind accepts it, it ceases to be a problem.


I have to respectfully disagree with this, as I have realized my accepting of this pain and tension without getting better in the past led to it getting much worse. I think the real way to deal with pain is to be fully aware of your life force and focus your mind on healing before anything else. If it was being unmindful which exabberated the problem it is important to be mindful in not repeating the same mistake again.

Now I'm going to go do some yoga :wink:


--------------------

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7370763 -

Quote:
if I can accept it.


Don't accept it. Acceptance like that is just the opposite of rejection. There is still much duality. If you don't reject the pain and you don't accept the pain, what is there you can do? Just observe it. Observe the physical sensations, without judging them as pleasant or unpleasant, and observe the way your mind reacts to them, also without judgment.

Quote:
I don't think it is an illusion in the sense that I could ignore it or embrace it and automatically become fully healthy again.


No, you're right.

Quote:
I don't know what to call this if it isn't pain


Call it pain. That's what it is, so don't call it anything else. But don't get caught up in the label. Pain is just a name for sensations. Let go of the attachment to the label, and just experience the reality. Let yourself dissolve into the sensations, into the experience, so that there is no one who experiences the pain, and no pain experienced, just the experience itself, without duality. Of course, this is not easy. But it does help with pain!

And yeah, see a doctor or something if you need to.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7370789 -

I love this quote. (And I think it is very relavant to this discussion.)

"The spiritual arrogance and disgust in a man who has suffered deeply — how profoundly men can suffer almost determines their order of rank — his chilling certainty, with which he is thoroughly soaked and coloured, that thanks to his suffering he knows more than the cleverest and wisest can know, that he has known and at some point been "at home" in many terrible far-off worlds, about which "you know nothing!" . . . this spiritual and silent arrogance of the sufferer, this pride of the one chosen to know, of the "initiate," of the one who has almost been sacrificed, who needs all kinds of disguises to protect himself from contact with prying and compassionate hands and, in general, from everything which is not his equal in pain. Profound suffering ennobles; it separates."
-- Friedrick Nietzsche

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Re: physical pain [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7370876 -

Quote:
Buddha would classify pain as a delusion. And the karmic wheel he was referring to may have been a metaphor for the continual creation of a sense of self in this life rather than in a grander metaphysical sense. I.e. by clinging to your pain and deriving a sense of selfhood from it, you are creating your own suffering. By accepting your pain you see that it is a delusion. I think that is a fairly Buddhist sentiment.

If it has been your experience that pain is not an illusion, so be it. It is my opinion that pain in all manifestations is energy unaccepted by mind, nothing more - and that if mind accepts it, it ceases to be a problem. Buddha would classify pain as a delusion. And the karmic wheel he was referring to may have been a metaphor for the continual creation of a sense of self in this life rather than in a grander metaphysical sense. I.e. by clinging to your pain and deriving a sense of selfhood from it, you are creating your own suffering. By accepting your pain you see that it is a delusion. I think that is a fairly Buddhist sentiment.



So in that case you could undergo for example surgery without anesthetic ? Torture without pain ?

Buddha believed that life was suffering and that physical pain was karmic, to escape physical pain was to escape incarnation, not to see it as an illusion. If it where an illusion, that would have provided him with a much easier why out of the problem of suffering. I have seen nothing to suggest that he saw physicl pain as an illusion, to the contrary.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.

Edited by cloudtripper (09/05/07 01:40 PM)

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Re: physical pain [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7371480 -

Sounds like a valuable lesson to me.
There will always be people, as well as situations, which have the ability to make one thing that there's something wrong with them.
This is split in two: it is true that those from the outside play their role in making one feel confused, depressed or psychotic, but it's also true that the individual who believes things like that does that at the account of his own choice. This happens when one is doubt about who he is, and at the "threat" of being considered a freak or an outsider, he chooses to conform.
That's exactly why I said that your experience is a great lesson for life, because it can make you become aware of the fact that you made your own choice to conform to other people's interpretations of who you were, and also that you suffered all the consequences, realizing what happens if you lose contact with who you really are.

Quote:
Never believe other people. Other people are ignorant/full of shit. Live life happily if you can, and when you no longer can, hope your family is around because most people won't put up with you.


I don't think that's such a good concept to think that you should never trust other people. And think this comes from making a confusion between trusting and blindly following other's people's path. There are people to be trusted, loved, people that have interesting and valuable things to say and if you shut yourself off from everybody, you risk in losing important lessons as well as lots of fun and great feelings.
I'd suggest you to be more selective about the people you choose to spend time with, get to know who they are, but, most important, get to know who YOU are. Because the more you become aware of yourself, the more you'll be able to make the difference between those who deserve your attention and trust and those who don't.
Also relying on the family is not something that one should take for granted because life has proven so. By creating at attachment to the idea of family and what it's "duty" is to you, you can end up even more hurt and confused. Idealizing the roles of the family is something that's mainly socially imposed and which in real life works entirely different and creates a lot of unnecessary drama.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: physical pain [Re: Lion]
    #7371646 -

bug said:
It is my opinion that pain in all manifestations is energy unaccepted by mind, nothing more - and that if mind accepts it, it ceases to be a problem.


Pain is usually a warning sign that something is wrong physiologically, and does travel as energy signals right to your brain....

Pain is an illusion....?  Then everything you see, hear, smell, taste, (feel), is also an illusion....?
It doesn't make it "right" just because Maynard puts it in a song ya~ know....  :wink:  :tongue:

There is a difference between not sensing something, and (trying to) ignore the fact that you ARE sensing something....    :wink:
Have you ever been in some serious pain for a period of time....? 
If not, either you have some mad skills, or you are just plain lucky....    :smirk:

But then, there are different levels of everything for everyone.... 
So, who is to say what "everyone" can and can't do....    :ohwell:
I would LOVE to have the ability to "ignore the illusion of pain" - without meds....  :wink:

The things that I have learned about pain, is a person can take a lot of it, and it is delightful when it goes away....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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