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Invisiblezorbman
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Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom
    #7341022 - 08/27/07 06:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yet another fine example of Republican family values:

Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) was arrested in June at a Minnesota airport by a plainclothes police officer investigating lewd conduct complaints in a men’s public restroom, according to an arrest report obtained by Roll Call Monday afternoon.

Craig’s arrest occurred just after noon on June 11 at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. On Aug. 8, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct in the Hennepin County District Court. He paid more than $500 in fines and fees, and a 10-day jail sentence was stayed. He also was given one year of probation with the court that began on Aug. 8.

A spokesman for Craig described the incident as a “he said/he said misunderstanding,” and said the office would release a fuller statement later Monday afternoon.

After he was arrested, Craig, who is married, was taken to the Airport Police Operations Center to be interviewed about the lewd conduct incident, according to the police report. At one point during the interview, Craig handed the plainclothes sergeant who arrested him a business card that identified him as a U.S. Senator and said, “What do you think about that?” the report states.

Craig was detained for approximately 45 minutes, interviewed, photographed, fingerprinted and released, and police prepared a formal complaint for interference with privacy and disorderly conduct.

According to the incident report, Sgt. Dave Karsnia was working as a plainclothes officer on June 11 investigating civilian complaints regarding sexual activity in the men’s public restroom in which Craig was arrested.

Airport police previously had made numerous arrests in the men’s restroom of the Northstar Crossing in the Lindbergh Terminal in connection with sexual activity.

Karsnia entered the bathroom at noon that day and about 13 minutes after taking a seat in a stall, he stated he could see “an older white male with grey hair standing outside my stall.”

The man, who lingered in front of the stall for two minutes, was later identified as Craig.

“I could see Craig look through the crack in the door from his position. Craig would look down at his hands, ‘fidget’ with his fingers, and then look through the crack into my stall again. Craig would repeat this cycle for about two minutes,” the report states.

Craig then entered the stall next to Karsnia’s and placed his roller bag against the front of the stall door.

“My experience has shown that individuals engaging in lewd conduct use their bags to block the view from the front of their stall,” Karsnia stated in his report. “From my seated position, I could observe the shoes and ankles of Craig seated to the left of me.”

Craig was wearing dress pants with black dress shoes.

“At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly. While this was occurring, the male in the stall to my right was still present. I could hear several unknown persons in the restroom that appeared to use the restroom for its intended use. The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area,” the report states.

Craig then proceeded to swipe his hand under the stall divider several times, and Karsnia noted in his report that “I could ... see Craig had a gold ring on his ring finger as his hand was on my side of the stall divider.”

Karsnia then held his police identification down by the floor so that Craig could see it.

“With my left hand near the floor, I pointed towards the exit. Craig responded, ‘No!’ I again pointed towards the exit. Craig exited the stall with his roller bags without flushing the toilet. ... Craig said he would not go. I told Craig that he was under arrest, he had to go, and that I didn’t want to make a scene. Craig then left the restroom.”

In a recorded interview after his arrest, Craig “either disagreed with me or ‘didn’t recall’ the events as they happened,” the report states.

Craig stated “that he has a wide stance when going to the bathroom and that his foot may have touched mine,” the report states. Craig also told the arresting officer that he reached down with his right hand to pick up a piece of paper that was on the floor.

“It should be noted that there was not a piece of paper on the bathroom floor, nor did Craig pick up a piece of paper,” the arresting officer said in the report.

On Aug. 8, the day he pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct in the Minnesota court, Craig appeared via satellite at a ceremony that took place in Idaho in which former Idaho federal Judge Randy Smith was invested into his new position as a judge on the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

In October 2006, Craig’s office publicly denied allegations that he was a homosexual made on a gay activist Web site — blogactive.com. Craig’s office told the Spokane Spokesman-Review that the charge was “completely ridiculous,” saying that the allegations had “no basis in fact.”

Steven T. Dennis contributed to this report.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1887377/posts


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (08/27/07 06:25 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7341097 - 08/27/07 06:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i don't know if he's ever made any anti-gay statements or policy recommendations, but without posting something to that effect.... what's your point? that larry craig is a hypocrite for being gay and republican? that republicans are hypocrites because some of them are anti-gay and some of them are gay? that you are ok with knocking someone for their sexual orientation as long as they are a republican?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7341122 - 08/27/07 06:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7341148 - 08/27/07 06:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
i don't know if he's ever made any anti-gay statements or policy recommendations, but without posting something to that effect.... what's your point? that larry craig is a hypocrite for being gay and republican? that republicans are hypocrites because some of them are anti-gay and some of them are gay? that you are ok with knocking someone for their sexual orientation as long as they are a republican?




Craig has supported quite a bit of anti-gay legislation.

Does his being a self-serving hypocrite mean nothing to you?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7341180 - 08/27/07 07:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> Does his being a self-serving hypocrite mean nothing to you?

Until you made the point, no. This is debate (mostly), not touchy feely time. As wilshire pointed out, until you take a position, by posting the article, you are nothing more than tabloid press. (paraphrased)

To be fair, I see that you did post one item of contention: "Yet another fine example of Republican family values" *grin*


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Seuss]
    #7341220 - 08/27/07 07:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The article I posted was a reprint of the original Roll Call article. Roll Call is certainly not a tabloid- it is the official newspaper of Capitol Hill.

Also I would avoid using the phrase "touchy feely time" in the context of this story. :grin:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7341234 - 08/27/07 07:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> Also I would avoid using the phrase "touchy feely time" in the context of this story. :grin:

*laugh*  I didn't want to take us tooo far off topic.  Is this the same yoyo that they caught a while back, or a new one?  (I saw the reference to June, so I suspect the same one from a while back...)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7341269 - 08/27/07 07:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It seems Dem's have this strange deal with sex????

When it involves themselves they say it's not important, but when it involves Republicans it's explosive!

The Republicans need to get rid of all these closet Homos!


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7341289 - 08/27/07 07:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> It seems Dem's have this strange deal with sex????

Hmmm... Next on C-SPAN2, heterosexual adultery vs homosexual adultery... which is a worse violation of family values!?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Seuss]
    #7341310 - 08/27/07 07:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:grin:


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7341314 - 08/27/07 07:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It seems Dem's have this strange deal with sex????

When it involves themselves they say it's not important, but when it involves Republicans it's explosive!




Do you not understand the concept of hypocrisy?

The GOP runs on family values so when they get caught not practicing what they preach, yes, it is very explosive. Makes perfect sense to me.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7341329 - 08/27/07 07:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Craig has supported quite a bit of anti-gay legislation.

oh. ok then. :smirk:


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7341346 - 08/27/07 07:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)





Crazy....

And the leading Presidential Republican Candidate 2008 is a Twice Divorced Cross-dressing gay loving roommates show-tune-dancing Manhattan dandy......

The Gay Old Party


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by lonestar2004 (08/27/07 10:11 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Seuss]
    #7341494 - 08/27/07 08:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Is this the same yoyo that they caught a while back, or a new one?




Not sure. They are all starting to blur together in my mind.

Evidently Craig felt he could espouse one set of views in public and act another way in private.

I guess he lives in his Own Private Idaho. :rotfl:


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OfflineDr_T
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7341535 - 08/27/07 08:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, this is another one. That guy was a Representative, Craig is a senator. A pretty cool one, for a Republican, I hope he comes out ok.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7341890 - 08/27/07 10:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

He was never arrested for homosexuality, he was arrested for lewd behavior in a public stall. Playing the homo card on this senator doesnt make what he did any less stupid, he should lose his job, most other people would.


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OfflineChesterCopperpot
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7342068 - 08/27/07 10:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Larry Craig has a 90%+ voting record as scored by the American Conservative Union while being homosexual (homosexuality is his right mind you, but Senators should not lie). Larry Craig is a representative of the people of Idaho while making sexual advances in public restrooms. Larry Craig supports the USA Patriot Act (a crime in and of itself). This is not a debate about gay rights, yes the man may have any sexual orientation that he wishes. The debate is over the absolute hypocrisy of the "leadership" in this country. I am not afraid to deplore a man who fights for the destruction of our privacy and freedoms, who lies to himself while believing in political movements that are against his own sexual orientation, and who is a PERVERT. These are the people that make public policy.....


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7342133 - 08/27/07 10:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ha, another one.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7343124 - 08/28/07 05:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Another do as I say, not as I do literal male Republican cocksucker.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #7343261 - 08/28/07 07:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheHateCamel said:
Ha, another one.




thats what i said... lol


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7345651 - 08/28/07 08:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Zorb, I was just going to make a post about this. I saw the headline on yahoo.com and said "Oh, this guy HAS to be Republican." For some strange reason, I just now heard about this Larry Craig situation. Or maybe it's just hard to keep track of how many gay republicans have been outed.

Oh, and I will definitely say that if you're Republican and you're gay, you're a hypocrite, no matter if you've personally pushed anti-gay legislation or not. It's like if a member of the KKK knocked up a black girl. You can't say that he's not a hypocrite just because you've never heard of any specific instance in which he has displayed racial hatred. If you're gay or if you like any illegal drugs and you're Republican, you're a hypocrite. There, I said it.

Hey, what's the gay Republican tally? Here are the ones I can remember........

  • Mark Gannon
  • Mark Foley
  • Ted Haggard
  • Bob Allen
  • Larry Craig


Did I miss anybody?






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Edited by Learyfan (08/28/07 08:11 PM)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Learyfan]
    #7345663 - 08/28/07 08:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Oh, and I will definitely say that if you're Republican and you're gay, you're a hypocrite, no matter if you've personally pushed anti-gay legislation or not. It's like if a member of the KKK knocked up a white girl.




You mean black girl. I'm sure our friends in the KKK knock up white girls all the time.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: it stars saddam]
    #7345671 - 08/28/07 08:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Haha, yeah, black girl. KKK knocks up black girl. Let me change that................






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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Learyfan]
    #7345792 - 08/28/07 08:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So if you are gay you cannot be a Republican? How do you figure that?

Are all the gays at this site http://gaypatriot.org/ hypocrites, then?



Phred


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Phred]
    #7345806 - 08/28/07 08:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
So if you are gay you cannot be a Republican? How do you figure that?

Are all the gays at this site http://gaypatriot.org/ hypocrites, then?



Phred




i think it just boils down to how he voted, no? if he voted against gay legislaton, he is a hypocrite. if he voted yes for legislation, then the only wrong thing he did here was committ a lewd public act. i don't understand what is so difficult for people to understand about this stuff...sometimes i think people try to see more to a situation than there really is.

EDIT: this wasn't addressed to you Phred. more of a universal bitching of everyone reading too much into this incident.


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Edited by Syle (08/28/07 08:51 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Phred]
    #7345929 - 08/28/07 09:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah they are. The underlying message from the Republicans in the 2004 election was "fuck them faggots". Anyone who is gay and stands in line with that bullshit is a hypocrite. I'm just sayin'. Think about it. It's funny like a jewish nazi is funny. It's irony on a base level. It's a hoot.

I love it when these assholes are outed. Hearing that another gay Republican has been outed like like Christmas to me. It gives me the same feeling I had as a child when I was about to open that first present underneath that tree. It's even more like Christmas in that once the package has been torn off, it's great, but it isn't a surprise. Only a repressed homosexual would hate gays as much as Republicans. So it isn't surprising to find that these men have been riding side-saddle.





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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Learyfan]
    #7345944 - 08/28/07 09:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you're gay or if you like any illegal drugs and you're Republican, you're a hypocrite. There, I said it.

and you're either using a different definition of the word 'hypocrite' than the rest of the english speaking world, or you are using faulty reasoning.

here: if larry craig has condemned homosexuals, and the claims made about his orientation are true, then he is a hypocrite. that's how it works.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7346004 - 08/28/07 09:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In calling himself a Republican, he has aligned himself with the party of gay bashing rednecks. He represents homophobic ignorance as a member of the GOP. He's working against everything that he is. So he's a hypocrite.






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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Learyfan]
    #7346037 - 08/28/07 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In calling himself a Republican, he has aligned himself with the party of gay bashing rednecks.

are all republicans gay bashing rednecks or not? is larry craig?

simple, simple logic here.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Learyfan]
    #7346041 - 08/28/07 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
In calling himself a Republican, he has aligned himself with the party of gay bashing rednecks. He represents homophobic ignorance as a member of the GOP. He's working against everything that he is. So he's a hypocrite.









You are ignorant. There is nothing about being gay that says you have to be stupid. Vilifying Jeff Gannon is homophobic. You're just jealous you don't have his package. In your mouth.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7346055 - 08/28/07 10:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I may be jealous, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to be stupid to be a Republican.






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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Learyfan]
    #7346098 - 08/28/07 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Astonishingly enough, the stupid Republicans manage to hold a roughly half share of control in spite of being outnumbered about 2 to 1 by true retards.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7346110 - 08/28/07 10:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I do not like Bill Clinton, but............

Check this out -Larry Craig 1999 on Bill Clinton.  He calls Clinton a "nasty, bad, naughty boy" because of the Monica affair.  Hypocrite!  :lol:






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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7346324 - 08/28/07 11:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

cripes, do you really not understand this issue at hand at all? people like you are reasons I rarely visit this forum...the stupidity is almost asphyxiating =.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Syle]
    #7346462 - 08/28/07 11:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
EDIT: this wasn't addressed to you Phred. more of a universal bitching of everyone reading too much into this incident.




On the contrary...isn't this becoming a pattern? Politicians who support policies that treat homosexuals as less than citizens getting caught soliciting gay sex? I seem to recall reading about such incidences in Savage Love more than once over the last year or so.

If this is part of a pattern than shit we aren't reading into it too much at all. Gay hating laws don't make any fucking sense, until something like this happens and you realize that the only reason people attack homosexuality is because they are in the closet and are, therefore, self hating. Guys like this should be metaphorically burned at the stake for all to see.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Syle]
    #7346516 - 08/29/07 12:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
cripes, do you really not understand this issue at hand at all? people like you are reasons I rarely visit this forum...the stupidity is almost asphyxiating =.




I understand that Senator Craig has exposed himself as a self-serving hypocrite.

What more is there to grasp?


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7347068 - 08/29/07 04:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Senator Craig is a good American.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Syle]
    #7347233 - 08/29/07 07:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> i think it just boils down to how he voted, no? if he voted against gay legislaton, he is a hypocrite.

I don't think this is enough. I am not arguing that the guy is a hypocrite or not; I don't have enough information to make a judgment. However, I don't think one has to be hypocritical to be gay and vote against gay legislation. For example, I am anti-abortion, but I would never vote in favor of anti-abortion legislation. Does that make me a hypocrite? No, as long as I am clear about my position. As a representative, my job is to represent the people, not to legislate my own moral values or just the people that voted for me. Again, I am not defending these guys, only saying that there is more to being a hypocrite than being caught in the act of gayness and being republican or even being gay and voting against gay legislation (whatever gay legislation happens to be).


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Seuss]
    #7347238 - 08/29/07 07:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Good point. The "anti-gay" legislation he voted for might have been of the "hate-crime" type that grants special privileges to certain groups and that is unconstitutional.

However, I find it funny how there have been rumors of his sexuality for years and then this incident happens and he claims, "I'm not gay". Sounds kind of fishy to me.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7347333 - 08/29/07 08:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> and he claims, "I'm not gay". Sounds kind of fishy to me.

Yep... agree with you there.

It is unfortunate that our society has created such a stigma towards homosexuality that people with homosexual tendencies would vote in a homophobic manner in order to avoid being associated with gay culture. You can almost feel the conflict in these guys; supporting "anti-gay" legislation trying to prove to themselves that they aren't gay. Oh well, I guess it gives us something unimportant to think about rather than pondering all the lives lost in the middle east.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7347484 - 08/29/07 09:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

all i an saying is, show me that he voted against gay legislation, and i will agree with all of you here that this is unacceptable from a congressman.

until then, what is there to talk about?


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Syle]
    #7347547 - 08/29/07 10:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
all i an saying is, show me that he voted against gay legislation, and i will agree with all of you here that this is unacceptable from a congressman.

until then, what is there to talk about?




The following is from a wiki article on article on Craig. The references provided for the material are from Craig's own website
Quote:


Craig supported the Federal Marriage Amendment, which barred extention of rights to same-sex couples; he voted for cloture on the amendment in both 2004 and 2006. However, in late 2006 he appeared to endorse the right of individual states to create same-sex civil unions, but said he would vote "yes" on an Idaho constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages when pressured to clarify his position by the anti-homosexual group Families for a Better Idaho.[19] Craig voted against cloture in 2002 which would have extended the federal definition of hate crimes to cover sexual orientation.[20]




I guess that he is not a "hypocrite" unless he is for the Federal Marriage Ammendment but then was also married to a man. I suppose for him, living in the closet and skulking around bathrooms for handjobs is a satisfying sexual existence, and the fact that he doesn't support the right of people with his orientation to commit to each other for life doesn't make him a hypocrite, it just makes him a homosexual, pathetic and horrendous asshole instead of just a heterosexual horrendous asshole.

Furthermore, this does have political significance, or at least irony that should cause the anti-gay crowd to stop and reconsider. If the people leading the march against homosexuality are in fact gay, or have gay daughters, it suggests that homosexuality is common and natural. If forcing people into the closet instead of allowing them to marry results in pervs in our bathrooms, maybe gay marriage is better for society.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Seuss]
    #7347564 - 08/29/07 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I don't think this is enough. I am not arguing that the guy is a hypocrite or not; I don't have enough information to make a judgment. However, I don't think one has to be hypocritical to be gay and vote against gay legislation. For example, I am anti-abortion, but I would never vote in favor of anti-abortion legislation. Does that make me a hypocrite? No, as long as I am clear about my position. As a representative, my job is to represent the people, not to legislate my own moral values or just the people that voted for me. Again, I am not defending these guys, only saying that there is more to being a hypocrite than being caught in the act of gayness and being republican or even being gay and voting against gay legislation (whatever gay legislation happens to be).




Ah but if you voted against the right to abortions but then received abortions in secrecy you would be a hypocrite. Voting against gay marriage and then seeking out gay sex is pretty close to being hypocritical. I doubt that Craig announced to "Families for a better Idaho" that he was against gay marriage but he was all in favor of getting his dick sucked by men in airport bathrooms.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7347589 - 08/29/07 10:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
If forcing people into the closet instead of allowing them to marry results in pervs in our bathrooms, maybe gay marriage is better for society.




Word up.

Maybe somebody should forward that to every Republican in both houses of Congress. If the goal is a safer society, getting creepy old perverts out of the restrooms is a good start.

Not that I have anything against old perverts- I hope to be one someday. :lol:


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Syle]
    #7348098 - 08/29/07 01:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Craig as well as every other republican politician in Idaho is against gay marriage and gay couples adopting. as well as being anti school...


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7348109 - 08/29/07 01:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The gay marriage thing annoys me.  We have much more important things to worry about and also I'm wondering why gay people want to get married.  Being married looks shitty and miserable and then when you get divorced the lawyers and your ex-spouse can take a bunch of your money.  Sounds like a bum deal to me.  :shrug:

The social conservatives want the federal government to use its power to ban gay marriage.  The homo's want the federal government to us its power to legalize it.  I assert that the federal government has no authoirty in the realm of marriage...it's a state matter.  So, leave it to the states.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7348203 - 08/29/07 01:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
The gay marriage thing annoys me. We have much more important things to worry about and also I'm wondering why gay people want to get married. Being married looks shitty and miserable and then when you get divorced the lawyers and your ex-spouse can take a bunch of your money. Sounds like a bum deal to me.

The social conservatives want the federal government to use its power to ban gay marriage. The homo's want the federal government to us its power to legalize it. I assert that the federal government has no authoirty in the realm of marriage...it's a state matter. So, leave it to the states.




Doesn't matter that marriage is stupid. As long as the federal government recognizes marriage betweeen a man and a woman it needs to recognize marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. This is a civil rights issue plain and simple. If you want to get rid of marriage being recognized by the govt alltogether thats fine with me. But as long as the government is giving people tax and health care breaks for being married they need to include every citizen.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7348394 - 08/29/07 02:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

either way...regardless of whether he's a hypocrite or not, he's still trying to signal to men in an airport bathroom that he wants to have sex with them. can't we all just agree that he is a creepy pervert? and even if anyone is supposed to believe that the cop is a complete liar, and craig really does use the bathroom "in a wide stance" then the guy is a fucking weirdo. seriously, who the hell takes a shit with their legs spread so far apart that their feet are in the next stall over?

the guy got caught being the fag he is and he won't own up to his homosexuality because then he would be a hypocrite, not to mention he wouldn't get reelected. in fact, he'd probably be forced to resign.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7348477 - 08/29/07 03:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

One thing that might help the Republican party is if they would stop feeling the need to kiss the ring of the Jerry Fallwells and Pat Robertsons of the world.

If you don't make holier-than-thou claims you don't get exposed as being human like most people on the planet.

Ironically, the GOP in using the religious right to gain power has sold its soul in the process. Organized religion needs to stay out of politics- it corrupts both the political process and religion itself.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7348651 - 08/29/07 04:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I will be more than happy if you would direct me to the Democrat who has made a statement that it is OK to solicit anonymous sex with a stranger in an airport restroom. I think even Dems are holier than that. Except Jim McGreavy, of course. He is exactly that holy. Holy holy holy stick your roly poly in my....eh, it's beyond me.

I don't care that this dumb mutt is a homo, but I bet that won't play real well in Idaho. Too bad. But surfing for sausage in a restroom is pretty fucked no matter what the gender. Please go away you incredible moron.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7348672 - 08/29/07 04:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't get why these Queers like to have sex in public restrooms. :shrug:

NASTY!  i cant stand taking a shit in a public restroom let alone having SEX in one.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7348713 - 08/29/07 04:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I will be more than happy if you would direct me to the Democrat who has made a statement that it is OK to solicit anonymous sex with a stranger in an airport restroom.




Nice strawman. Of course they are not cool with it but democrats are not generally known to loudly trumpet their religous views or put bumper stickers like "Moral Majority" on their cars.


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Edited by zorbman (08/29/07 05:08 PM)


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7349058 - 08/29/07 06:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Craig supported the Federal Marriage Amendment, which barred extention of rights to same-sex couples

not anti-gay. a marriage is a union between a man and a woman. there is nothing at all political about that, it's just a fact. that's what a marriage is and has been for thousands of years around the entire world.

Craig voted against cloture in 2002 which would have extended the federal definition of hate crimes to cover sexual orientation.

again, not anti-gay. hate crime laws are a bad idea. you can be opposed to expanding them without being in any way opposed to those to whom they are indended to give special recognition.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7349241 - 08/29/07 07:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Craig supported the Federal Marriage Amendment, which barred extention of rights to same-sex couples

not anti-gay. a marriage is a union between a man and a woman. there is nothing at all political about that, it's just a fact. that's what a marriage is and has been for thousands of years around the entire world.

Craig voted against cloture in 2002 which would have extended the federal definition of hate crimes to cover sexual orientation.

again, not anti-gay. hate crime laws are a bad idea. you can be opposed to expanding them without being in any way opposed to those to whom they are indended to give special recognition.





IMO the Democrats and their loyal moonbats could care less about Gay Rights.

ITS ALL ABOUT POWER!

If the Democrats can force many republican resignations for all kinds of SINS (divorced, drug users, adulterers, abortion recipients, gamblers) They could hold a very large electoral advantage.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7349443 - 08/29/07 08:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

you know, i wouldnt care if my congressman was gay. really, i wouldnt.

but I would care if that gay congressman was soliciting sex in public restrooms. I hold politicians to higher standards than that. at least get yourself a respectable prostitute, jesus.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: kotik]
    #7349610 - 08/29/07 09:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That right there is the crux of the biscuit.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: kotik]
    #7350024 - 08/29/07 11:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
you know, i wouldnt care if my congressman was gay. really, i wouldnt.

but I would care if that gay congressman was soliciting sex in public restrooms. I hold politicians to higher standards than that. at least get yourself a respectable prostitute, jesus.




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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7350050 - 08/30/07 12:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Craig supported the Federal Marriage Amendment, which barred extention of rights to same-sex couples

not anti-gay. a marriage is a union between a man and a woman. there is nothing at all political about that, it's just a fact. that's what a marriage is and has been for thousands of years around the entire world.

Craig voted against cloture in 2002 which would have extended the federal definition of hate crimes to cover sexual orientation.

again, not anti-gay. hate crime laws are a bad idea. you can be opposed to expanding them without being in any way opposed to those to whom they are indended to give special recognition.


:thumbup:


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7351087 - 08/30/07 11:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Craig supported the Federal Marriage Amendment, which barred extention of rights to same-sex couples

not anti-gay. a marriage is a union between a man and a woman. there is nothing at all political about that, it's just a fact. that's what a marriage is and has been for thousands of years around the entire world.




Nope. A law that blocks gay people from getting married based on sexual orientation is "anti-gay," because it blocks them access from a right that other citizens are free to practice. Just because something has been a certain way for thousands of years does not mean it is
A) Right
B) Just
C) Incongrous with the notion of individual liberty

A law that says heterosexual citizens can enjoy marriage while homosexual citizens can't is a violation of civil liberty. There is no other logical way to look at it. Gay marriage should be legal because it does not infringe on the rights of any people outside of the marriage. The only argument you can make against gay marriage is based on religious dogma. If you are in favor of the government deciding what is moral and what is immoral, you might as well move to a country run by religious fundamentalists or communists.

Quote:

Craig voted against cloture in 2002 which would have extended the federal definition of hate crimes to cover sexual orientation.

again, not anti-gay. hate crime laws are a bad idea. you can be opposed to expanding them without being in any way opposed to those to whom they are indended to give special recognition.




I agree entirely, except for your conclusion that it means that Ron Paul's stance is not anti-gay. The hate crime issue is not really relevant to the main issue at hand, I.E. gay marriage.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7352469 - 08/30/07 05:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nope. A law that blocks gay people from getting married based on sexual orientation is "anti-gay," because it blocks them access from a right that other citizens are free to practice.

look, this isn't politics, it's biology. part of the social structure of homo sapiens is a long-term commitment between one man and one woman, typically for the purpose of raising offspring, which require an investment of parental resources unheard of in other species.

it's not hatred of gays, or denying them of their rights, to recognize that a commited homosexual relationship is not a 'marriage' any more than it is to recognize that a homosexual couple cannot conceive children togother.

this isn't based on religious dogma. i have no problem with homosexuals in commited relationships or homosexuals living together as a couple (or more for all i care). but it is not a marriage.

the government gives incentives for people to marry. this makes sense, because marriage has social benefits. the biggest social benefit is that a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.

personally i don't feel that the government should recognize marriage at all. there is a slight reason (stated above) for the government to recognize and provide incentives in favor of marriage, but there is absolutely none for it to recognize homosexual couples.

The hate crime issue is not really relevant to the main issue at hand, I.E. gay marriage.

the post to which i was responding brought up larry craig's vote against expansion of hate crime laws as an example of an anti-gay voting record.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7352579 - 08/30/07 06:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wow... this is one of the first times I have not agreed with you... as you said, "this isn't politics, it's biology".  Exactly.  If it is biology rather than politics, then why not let people decide on marriage rather than politicians?

> personally i don't feel that the government should recognize marriage at all.

I think this may be my point... *chuckle*  (Guess I should have read your entire post before making a reply. :grin:)


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7352742 - 08/30/07 06:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.




Have you ever heard of adoption?

I would much rather see a child raised in a loving gay couple's home than an abusive heterosexual one.


--------------------
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7352876 - 08/30/07 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.




Have you ever heard of adoption?

I would much rather see a child raised in a loving gay couple's home than an abusive heterosexual one.




Lesbians can have kids without adopting. Gotta get some sperm somewhere, but it's not hard to find.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7353206 - 08/30/07 08:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

From a libertarian standpoint I totally understand not expanding hate crimes laws. It amounts to giving preference to one group and that is unconstitutional. But, the whole no gay marriage thing is stupid in my opinion. Who the hell cares if some flamers get a piece of paper between them and shit? Let the states deal with it.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7354148 - 08/31/07 12:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Look, Wilshire, on all other topics you are and intelligent well thought out contributor, but your argument doesn't make any sense at all:

Quote:

wilshire said:
look, this isn't politics, it's biology.


How so?
Quote:

part of the social structure of homo sapiens is a long-term commitment between one man and one woman, typically for the purpose of raising offspring, which require an investment of parental resources unheard of in other species.




And yet single parents raise children all the time. And Gay parents raise children all the time.

Quote:

it's not hatred of gays, or denying them of their rights, to recognize that a commited homosexual relationship is not a 'marriage' any more than it is to recognize that a homosexual couple cannot conceive children togother.




How do you figure? You are denying them the right to be married. How is that not a denial of rights? Marriage as a political and social institution is not dependent upon the ability of the couple to conceive. There are married couples that never have children, and their are married couples that adopt. You are the only person I have ever talked to who has implied that marriage and conception must go hand and hand. If I get married and chose to have kids I will adopt because I have diabetes and have no interest in passing on my genes. Should I be denied the right to get married because I have no interest in procreating?

Quote:

this isn't based on religious dogma. i have no problem with homosexuals in commited relationships or homosexuals living together as a couple (or more for all i care). but it is not a marriage.




Why is it not a marriage? What is a marriage? Isn't it simply a committed relationship that is recognized by the church of your choice and then in turn the government? Why should you, Wilshire, be able to determine what kinds of marriage different churches recognize? Should you be able to decide what else churches do for people?

Quote:

the government gives incentives for people to marry. this makes sense, because marriage has social benefits. the biggest social benefit is that a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.




The massive hole in your logic is that gay couples have many ways in which they can conceive or adopt and then in turn raise children.

Quote:

personally i don't feel that the government should recognize marriage at all.



I would be fine with that too, but as long as it does it is in violation of the most fundamentals notion of liberty if it passes a law stating that marriage is only for citizens that meet criteria X. This is the main point. I can't believe that people don't see this as a civil liberty issue, because to me it goes no further. If you are against Jim Crow laws, you should be against laws banning gay marriage. If you are for the bill of rights, you are against laws banning gay marriage. If you think gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married because it leads to an immoral family structure, than you believe it is the government's job to police the morality of citizens whose actions cause no ill effect on other citizens. That is how I see it and I see it as clear as day.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Edited by gluke bastid (08/31/07 01:07 AM)


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OfflineIrishTemper
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7354747 - 08/31/07 04:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hahahaha


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7356499 - 08/31/07 06:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And yet single parents raise children all the time. And Gay parents raise children all the time.

statistics show that the kids don't turn out as well as when they have a mother and a father in their lives. there is at least some defensible rationale for the government to recognize and provide incentives for marriage. i have never said that i support it doing so.

How do you figure? You are denying them the right to be married.

having their marriage, or committed homosexual relationship, be recognized by the state is not a right for anyone. if the state simply did not provide legal recognition for either type of relationship, would that violate anyone's rights?

Marriage as a political and social institution is not dependent upon the ability of the couple to conceive.

but it is dependent on the ability of the couple to contain one male human and one female human - by definition.

You are the only person I have ever talked to who has implied that marriage and conception must go hand and hand.

you didn't understand what i said.

Why is it not a marriage?

because it does not fit the definition. see above.

What is a marriage?

see above.

Why should you, Wilshire, be able to determine what kinds of marriage different churches recognize?

i'm not talking about what each church may call a marriage. i'm talking about which sort of relationship the state has a plausible rationale for recognizing. there is one for heterosexual couples because it's been shown statistically that children coming from families with a mother and father do better than those who don't. there are no such data suggesting that homosexual couples are better than single parents at raising children.

I would be fine with that too, but as long as it does it is in violation of the most fundamentals notion of liberty if it passes a law stating that marriage is only for citizens that meet criteria X

marriage is a man and a woman, by definition. it has nothing to do with politics or law. what definition of marriage do you use and where do you get yours from?

just so we're clear - i don't believe that the state has any place in deciding the definition of marriage (which is why i oppose it redefining marriage as any two loving adults). it should not recognize marriage at all. it's a completely private matter. i also have absolutely no concern with how or with whom any consenting adults choose to have sex (except me me and my bitches).


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OfflineDr_T
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7357351 - 08/31/07 11:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Marriage as a political and social institution is not dependent upon the ability of the couple to conceive.

but it is dependent on the ability of the couple to contain one male human and one female human - by definition.

[...]
you didn't understand what i said.




Who's definition? Billions and billions of people in this world- and many in the US- believe that marraige is one man and one or more women. Sounds like too much hassle for my tastes, but there you go.


--------------------
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7359941 - 09/01/07 10:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Senator Larry Craig Resigns

Sorry I quit, says anti-gay senator arrested in airport toilet

Paul Harris in New York
Sunday September 2, 2007
The Observer

It all came to an end under a clear blue Idaho sky, in the harsh gaze of a dozen TV cameras. Senator Larry Craig, who started the week as a revered stalwart of the conservative wing of the Republican Party, ended it with his career in ruins as he announced his resignation yesterday.

It has been one of the most bizarre sex scandals to hit America and its ending carried that theme on. As the unfortunate senator went through the ritual of committing political suicide, a handful of protesters waved banners. 'Senator Craig is not gay. He is a pervert,' read one. Another asked: 'Do you know what stall your senator is in?'

That largely summed up the level of debate surrounding Craig's personal and political disaster after he was caught apparently attempting to solicit sex from a man in a Minneapolis airport toilet. The disaster for Craig was that the other party was an undercover police officer. For the married politician with a record of voting against gay rights, it was all over from the moment the news broke at the start of the week.

So, with his wife Suzanne beside him, Craig bowed to the inevitable yesterday and finally said the hardest words. 'I apologise for what I have caused. I am deeply sorry,' he told a crowd of reporters in the city of Boise, Idaho. He did not repeat his declaration that he was not gay but said: 'I have little control over what people choose to believe.'

The moment brought to a dramatic end one of the strangest examples of a seemingly endless list of Republicans who have fallen from grace and tarnished the party's self-proclaimed image as the guardian of America's public morality. They include Florida congressman Mark Foley, who stalked young male congressional messengers on the internet, and Louisiana senator David Vitter, who was caught using prostitutes.

The last few days in Washington as Craig's public and personal agony have played out have been odd to say the least. The airwaves have been dominated by a public debate on the whys and wherefores of men seeking sexual encounters in public toilets. Expressions such as 'cottaging', 'cruising' and 'the tearoom trade' have suddenly entered America's political lexicon. Much attention has focused on exactly what Craig was doing and if he really was seeking to procure sex when he sat down on the toilet.

The police version of events is simple. The toilet was known as a place where men came for sex. They would sit down in the stalls and use a recognisable series of foot movements and hand gestures to signal their intentions. That is, according to the police report, what Craig did.

He settled himself into the toilet, tapped his feet and moved his right foot over to touch that of the policeman in the next stall, and then slid his hand under the dividing wall. The policeman responded by showing Craig his badge. Craig was arrested. Or, as one unkind headline had it, he was 'flushed'.

Craig has steadfastly denied that he is either gay or was seeking sex. He said that the whole thing was a misunderstanding, claiming he had a 'wide stance' when sitting down and that led to him touching the police officer's foot. His hand movements, he said, had merely been a result of reaching down to retrieve some toilet paper.

The police were unimpressed by his version. In an excruciating taped recording of Craig's police interview the interrogating officer eventually gets annoyed at Craig's flat denials. 'I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I mean, people vote for you,' the officer says. Craig eventually pleaded guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct and - for a few months - thought that was the end of it.

But that was before news broke about the incident earlier this week. Then things got nasty. And funny. And strange.

The American news media quickly turned its full investigative talents to the issue, with one television news programme staging a re-enactment of the scene by newsreaders to see if Craig's version of events was credible. The issue has also become fodder for tabloids and late-night comedians.

The New York Post has dubbed Craig 'the potty pol' in its stories. But that is the least of it. Chat show host David Letterman quipped: 'Several prominent Republicans are calling on Senator Larry Craig to resign. And a couple are asking for his phone number.' Meanwhile, Letterman's rival, Jay Leno, added: 'His wife said she first became suspicious because every time he had to use the bathroom he would fly to Minneapolis.'

In most scandals, the target tries to ride out the storm. Denials are issued. Families stand by. Colleagues support. Sometimes it works. Often it does not. But in the Craig case there was an immediate race to disown the politician. Craig's career was not so much shot down in flames as vaporised.

Senior Republicans pulled no punches and raced to disassociate themselves from him, including presidential hopefuls John McCain and Mitt Romney, whose White House ambitions Craig had supported. 'Frankly, it's disgusting,' Romney said of a man who had been his friend and colleague at the start of the week. Democrats did little but stand by, probably laughing quietly.

The sheer ugliness of the Republican reaction has even led to expressions of sympathy from some unusual sources. Religious conservative Pat Buchanan - hardly a friend of closeted gay men - spoke out in shock. 'Rarely has a United States senator fallen so fast from grace or been so completely abandoned,' he said.

Former top Republican Tom DeLay also backed Craig and said he was being unfairly hounded. Such sentiments would perhaps have carried more weight if DeLay had not been forced to resign in 2005 amid charges of violating campaign financing laws.

It is certainly true that the Craig case has thrown a spotlight on some serious issues. The first is the idea of entrapment in law enforcement. Craig complained during his police interview that the officer had entrapped him. If he had been seeking sex, the encounter would have been entirely consensual. Some civil rights experts also point out that police do not seek to entrap heterosexual men or women into having anonymous sex in the toilets, for example, of a nightclub.

As it was, Craig has been arrested for merely touching the foot of an undercover police officer who was seeking to have his foot tapped. The incident has also shown just how anti-gay the Republican party can instinctively be, especially with a presidential nomination process under way in which religious conservatives play a prominent role.

The party has plenty of disgraced politicians who have kept their jobs. Just look at Vitter. His phone number appeared in the 'DC Madam' scandal and he confessed to using prostitutes. For several surreal weeks, Vitter - who campaigns on 'family values' - was trailed around Congress, pursued by television cameras. But he kept his job.

Or there is Senator Ted Stevens, a Republican whose home has been raided by the FBI and is the subject of a criminal investigation into bribery. Yet he remains head of a top Senate finance committee.

Yet Craig's hamfisted attempt at toilet sex, if such it was, instantly ended his political life. 'Apparently, in the view of the Republican party, there is nothing more serious than a member attempting to engage in gay sex,' said Melanie Sloan, executive director of the watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. Craig now knows this, to his cost.

observer.guardian.co.uk


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7360804 - 09/02/07 05:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Another fudge-packer bites the dust.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361748 - 09/02/07 03:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"If he had been seeking sex, the encounter would have been entirely consensual. Some civil rights experts also point out that police do not seek to entrap heterosexual men or women into having anonymous sex in the toilets, for example, of a nightclub."

yeah. i don't really see why what he did should be illegal. is it illegal to try to get laid? if you're gay?


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7361770 - 09/02/07 03:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I see no reason why what he did was committing a crime. The officer played along (acording to the state's position). Untill it becomes clear that the defendant intended to engage in sex in the public place, there is no crime- the conduct is permissable first amendment expression.

If corporations have a first amendment right to donate to politicians, than you can solicit sex (without course language or offensive conduct) in public places. I understand that the state can limit the conduct occuring in the bathroom, but they cannot prohibit nonverbal signals or whatnot.

Can you not pickup a girl at the bar? Sure you can- you just can't be intimate there. Same thing here, untill its clear he was harrasing an uniterested party, intended to engage in sex in the bathroom, or reasonably caused someone to be afraid, he commits nothing thats a crime.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: johnm214]
    #7361789 - 09/02/07 03:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

All the talk of marriage boils down to an equal protection argument. All citizens should have the equal protection of the law. Gays should be able to enjoy the same privledges to marry (and the legal rights that come with it) that straights do. Simple as that.

But whatever your position, I agree with McCain- it is a state issue, and the feds have no buisness interfereing through legislation, except to the extent they clarify how different schemes in different states work while the couple are outside the state they married in. This latter point is arguably a right that must be recognized by another state, under the full-faith and credit clause, but I'll defer on that to someone who knows more about it.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7361810 - 09/02/07 03:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i don't really see why what he did should be illegal

Because he was trying to do it in a public toilet.

I have NO problem with people doing whatever consentual thing they want in their bedroom, but c'mon, not in an airport toilet.

There are plenty of gay hookup sites on the internet where he can find what he's looking for without freaking out little kids trying to pee while he and his friend jerk off in the stall next to the urinal.

I have gay friends who've explained how this works. It's never just about making contact. Some jerking and sometimes touching and sucking usually happens before it moves somewhere more private. There's a sense of risk that adds to the whole scene and this is why some guys look for ass in a public place instead of online or in a gay club.

But to be clear, these people are a tiny minority of the gay subculture, just like weird straight people are a small minority too. The majority of gays seek each other out in appropriate ways.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361875 - 09/02/07 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ya know, I hadn't thought of the notion that he wasn't expressing any provable desire to get a hummer or whatever right there. He may have been feeling the guy out to make a date at a no-tell. Which doesn't make him any less of a pitiful asshole, but where was the crime? Why did this retard think it would just blow away if he pleaded to DC?


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361882 - 09/02/07 04:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But what did he do? I have no problem convicting him of intent to engage in sex in a bathroom, but did he preform actions that could prove that? I dont' think so.

Picking up someone in a bathroom is discusting, but not illegal. Harrasing someone, pursuing them after they turn you down, loitering after you've done your buisness, and actually intending to engage in sex there are all legitimate crimes. Simply asking someone out is not.

I'm just saying that I can't believe he intended to have sex in the bathroom (beyond a reasonable doubt) and I would find him not guilty (w/ the evidence I know now). You have the right to ask someone out. The officer played along with him, played footsie, tapped his foot, et cet- so the guy continued.

I think its gross, but untill there's something showing the man was intending to have sex (or harrased a non-consenting flirting target) there is no crime.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361900 - 09/02/07 04:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
i don't really see why what he did should be illegal

Because he was trying to do it in a public toilet.

I have NO problem with people doing whatever consentual thing they want in their bedroom, but c'mon, not in an airport toilet.

There are plenty of gay hookup sites on the internet where he can find what he's looking for without freaking out little kids trying to pee while he and his friend jerk off in the stall next to the urinal.

I have gay friends who've explained how this works. It's never just about making contact. Some jerking and sometimes touching and sucking usually happens before it moves somewhere more private. There a sense of risk that adds to the whole scene and this is why some guys look for ass in a public place instead of online or in a gay club.

But to be clear, these people are a tiny minority of the gay subculture, just like weird straight people are a small minority too. The majority of gays seek each other out in appropriate ways.




I'm not normally prone to side with conspirisists, but why does this thing stink?
It smacks of someone wanting this guy out of the way of something.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: hummermania00]
    #7361951 - 09/02/07 04:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, the timing of the release is a bit suspicious. Like in the Foley case when they sat on revealing it until it was too late to select another candidate. Feh, another moron removed. Although I do think he should have fought it. I also think he shouldn't have been such a scummy liar. Man up, be a homo if you want. Homos have a better shot at being elected than atheists.


--------------------


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7362056 - 09/02/07 05:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well, the timing of the release is a bit suspicious. Like in the Foley case when they sat on revealing it until it was too late to select another candidate. Feh, another moron removed. Although I do think he should have fought it. I also think he shouldn't have been such a scummy liar. Man up, be a homo if you want. Homos have a better shot at being elected than atheists.




Yep, I agree with you there.
Seems to be an all too frequent pattern of: do something - get caught - deny it - get caught lying also - quit.
The stakes of political position must be high indeed.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: hummermania00]
    #7362151 - 09/02/07 06:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yep... Like Congressman Ney from ohio- tied to abramoff. Denied the charges, promised to seek relection, filed the paperwork to seek relection and went campaigining, then just dropped everything and pled guilty.

I hate that shit. At least if the guy messed up he could just say so and I'd be more likely to forgive him.

Like Clinton. If he just would have told the truth, or refused to answer, the whole blowjob-gate thing would have been worth nothing (other than the civil lawsuit) instead he decided to perjur himself over an incident that was pretty much irrelevant.

Dumb politicians should just admit when they make a mistake, stop showboating.


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