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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7352579 - 08/30/07 04:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wow... this is one of the first times I have not agreed with you... as you said, "this isn't politics, it's biology".  Exactly.  If it is biology rather than politics, then why not let people decide on marriage rather than politicians?

> personally i don't feel that the government should recognize marriage at all.

I think this may be my point... *chuckle*  (Guess I should have read your entire post before making a reply. :grin:)


--------------------
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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7352742 - 08/30/07 04:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.




Have you ever heard of adoption?

I would much rather see a child raised in a loving gay couple's home than an abusive heterosexual one.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineDr_T
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7352876 - 08/30/07 05:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.




Have you ever heard of adoption?

I would much rather see a child raised in a loving gay couple's home than an abusive heterosexual one.




Lesbians can have kids without adopting. Gotta get some sperm somewhere, but it's not hard to find.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7353206 - 08/30/07 06:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

From a libertarian standpoint I totally understand not expanding hate crimes laws. It amounts to giving preference to one group and that is unconstitutional. But, the whole no gay marriage thing is stupid in my opinion. Who the hell cares if some flamers get a piece of paper between them and shit? Let the states deal with it.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7354148 - 08/30/07 10:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Look, Wilshire, on all other topics you are and intelligent well thought out contributor, but your argument doesn't make any sense at all:

Quote:

wilshire said:
look, this isn't politics, it's biology.


How so?
Quote:

part of the social structure of homo sapiens is a long-term commitment between one man and one woman, typically for the purpose of raising offspring, which require an investment of parental resources unheard of in other species.




And yet single parents raise children all the time. And Gay parents raise children all the time.

Quote:

it's not hatred of gays, or denying them of their rights, to recognize that a commited homosexual relationship is not a 'marriage' any more than it is to recognize that a homosexual couple cannot conceive children togother.




How do you figure? You are denying them the right to be married. How is that not a denial of rights? Marriage as a political and social institution is not dependent upon the ability of the couple to conceive. There are married couples that never have children, and their are married couples that adopt. You are the only person I have ever talked to who has implied that marriage and conception must go hand and hand. If I get married and chose to have kids I will adopt because I have diabetes and have no interest in passing on my genes. Should I be denied the right to get married because I have no interest in procreating?

Quote:

this isn't based on religious dogma. i have no problem with homosexuals in commited relationships or homosexuals living together as a couple (or more for all i care). but it is not a marriage.




Why is it not a marriage? What is a marriage? Isn't it simply a committed relationship that is recognized by the church of your choice and then in turn the government? Why should you, Wilshire, be able to determine what kinds of marriage different churches recognize? Should you be able to decide what else churches do for people?

Quote:

the government gives incentives for people to marry. this makes sense, because marriage has social benefits. the biggest social benefit is that a married couple tends to provide a much better environment for the raising of the next generation of citizens. because homosexual couples cannot concieve children (biology again, facts - not gaybashing) this does not apply to them.




The massive hole in your logic is that gay couples have many ways in which they can conceive or adopt and then in turn raise children.

Quote:

personally i don't feel that the government should recognize marriage at all.



I would be fine with that too, but as long as it does it is in violation of the most fundamentals notion of liberty if it passes a law stating that marriage is only for citizens that meet criteria X. This is the main point. I can't believe that people don't see this as a civil liberty issue, because to me it goes no further. If you are against Jim Crow laws, you should be against laws banning gay marriage. If you are for the bill of rights, you are against laws banning gay marriage. If you think gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married because it leads to an immoral family structure, than you believe it is the government's job to police the morality of citizens whose actions cause no ill effect on other citizens. That is how I see it and I see it as clear as day.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Edited by gluke bastid (08/30/07 11:07 PM)


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OfflineIrishTemper
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7354747 - 08/31/07 02:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hahahaha


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7356499 - 08/31/07 04:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And yet single parents raise children all the time. And Gay parents raise children all the time.

statistics show that the kids don't turn out as well as when they have a mother and a father in their lives. there is at least some defensible rationale for the government to recognize and provide incentives for marriage. i have never said that i support it doing so.

How do you figure? You are denying them the right to be married.

having their marriage, or committed homosexual relationship, be recognized by the state is not a right for anyone. if the state simply did not provide legal recognition for either type of relationship, would that violate anyone's rights?

Marriage as a political and social institution is not dependent upon the ability of the couple to conceive.

but it is dependent on the ability of the couple to contain one male human and one female human - by definition.

You are the only person I have ever talked to who has implied that marriage and conception must go hand and hand.

you didn't understand what i said.

Why is it not a marriage?

because it does not fit the definition. see above.

What is a marriage?

see above.

Why should you, Wilshire, be able to determine what kinds of marriage different churches recognize?

i'm not talking about what each church may call a marriage. i'm talking about which sort of relationship the state has a plausible rationale for recognizing. there is one for heterosexual couples because it's been shown statistically that children coming from families with a mother and father do better than those who don't. there are no such data suggesting that homosexual couples are better than single parents at raising children.

I would be fine with that too, but as long as it does it is in violation of the most fundamentals notion of liberty if it passes a law stating that marriage is only for citizens that meet criteria X

marriage is a man and a woman, by definition. it has nothing to do with politics or law. what definition of marriage do you use and where do you get yours from?

just so we're clear - i don't believe that the state has any place in deciding the definition of marriage (which is why i oppose it redefining marriage as any two loving adults). it should not recognize marriage at all. it's a completely private matter. i also have absolutely no concern with how or with whom any consenting adults choose to have sex (except me me and my bitches).


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OfflineDr_T
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7357351 - 08/31/07 09:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Marriage as a political and social institution is not dependent upon the ability of the couple to conceive.

but it is dependent on the ability of the couple to contain one male human and one female human - by definition.

[...]
you didn't understand what i said.




Who's definition? Billions and billions of people in this world- and many in the US- believe that marraige is one man and one or more women. Sounds like too much hassle for my tastes, but there you go.


--------------------
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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zorbman]
    #7359941 - 09/01/07 08:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Senator Larry Craig Resigns

Sorry I quit, says anti-gay senator arrested in airport toilet

Paul Harris in New York
Sunday September 2, 2007
The Observer

It all came to an end under a clear blue Idaho sky, in the harsh gaze of a dozen TV cameras. Senator Larry Craig, who started the week as a revered stalwart of the conservative wing of the Republican Party, ended it with his career in ruins as he announced his resignation yesterday.

It has been one of the most bizarre sex scandals to hit America and its ending carried that theme on. As the unfortunate senator went through the ritual of committing political suicide, a handful of protesters waved banners. 'Senator Craig is not gay. He is a pervert,' read one. Another asked: 'Do you know what stall your senator is in?'

That largely summed up the level of debate surrounding Craig's personal and political disaster after he was caught apparently attempting to solicit sex from a man in a Minneapolis airport toilet. The disaster for Craig was that the other party was an undercover police officer. For the married politician with a record of voting against gay rights, it was all over from the moment the news broke at the start of the week.

So, with his wife Suzanne beside him, Craig bowed to the inevitable yesterday and finally said the hardest words. 'I apologise for what I have caused. I am deeply sorry,' he told a crowd of reporters in the city of Boise, Idaho. He did not repeat his declaration that he was not gay but said: 'I have little control over what people choose to believe.'

The moment brought to a dramatic end one of the strangest examples of a seemingly endless list of Republicans who have fallen from grace and tarnished the party's self-proclaimed image as the guardian of America's public morality. They include Florida congressman Mark Foley, who stalked young male congressional messengers on the internet, and Louisiana senator David Vitter, who was caught using prostitutes.

The last few days in Washington as Craig's public and personal agony have played out have been odd to say the least. The airwaves have been dominated by a public debate on the whys and wherefores of men seeking sexual encounters in public toilets. Expressions such as 'cottaging', 'cruising' and 'the tearoom trade' have suddenly entered America's political lexicon. Much attention has focused on exactly what Craig was doing and if he really was seeking to procure sex when he sat down on the toilet.

The police version of events is simple. The toilet was known as a place where men came for sex. They would sit down in the stalls and use a recognisable series of foot movements and hand gestures to signal their intentions. That is, according to the police report, what Craig did.

He settled himself into the toilet, tapped his feet and moved his right foot over to touch that of the policeman in the next stall, and then slid his hand under the dividing wall. The policeman responded by showing Craig his badge. Craig was arrested. Or, as one unkind headline had it, he was 'flushed'.

Craig has steadfastly denied that he is either gay or was seeking sex. He said that the whole thing was a misunderstanding, claiming he had a 'wide stance' when sitting down and that led to him touching the police officer's foot. His hand movements, he said, had merely been a result of reaching down to retrieve some toilet paper.

The police were unimpressed by his version. In an excruciating taped recording of Craig's police interview the interrogating officer eventually gets annoyed at Craig's flat denials. 'I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I mean, people vote for you,' the officer says. Craig eventually pleaded guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct and - for a few months - thought that was the end of it.

But that was before news broke about the incident earlier this week. Then things got nasty. And funny. And strange.

The American news media quickly turned its full investigative talents to the issue, with one television news programme staging a re-enactment of the scene by newsreaders to see if Craig's version of events was credible. The issue has also become fodder for tabloids and late-night comedians.

The New York Post has dubbed Craig 'the potty pol' in its stories. But that is the least of it. Chat show host David Letterman quipped: 'Several prominent Republicans are calling on Senator Larry Craig to resign. And a couple are asking for his phone number.' Meanwhile, Letterman's rival, Jay Leno, added: 'His wife said she first became suspicious because every time he had to use the bathroom he would fly to Minneapolis.'

In most scandals, the target tries to ride out the storm. Denials are issued. Families stand by. Colleagues support. Sometimes it works. Often it does not. But in the Craig case there was an immediate race to disown the politician. Craig's career was not so much shot down in flames as vaporised.

Senior Republicans pulled no punches and raced to disassociate themselves from him, including presidential hopefuls John McCain and Mitt Romney, whose White House ambitions Craig had supported. 'Frankly, it's disgusting,' Romney said of a man who had been his friend and colleague at the start of the week. Democrats did little but stand by, probably laughing quietly.

The sheer ugliness of the Republican reaction has even led to expressions of sympathy from some unusual sources. Religious conservative Pat Buchanan - hardly a friend of closeted gay men - spoke out in shock. 'Rarely has a United States senator fallen so fast from grace or been so completely abandoned,' he said.

Former top Republican Tom DeLay also backed Craig and said he was being unfairly hounded. Such sentiments would perhaps have carried more weight if DeLay had not been forced to resign in 2005 amid charges of violating campaign financing laws.

It is certainly true that the Craig case has thrown a spotlight on some serious issues. The first is the idea of entrapment in law enforcement. Craig complained during his police interview that the officer had entrapped him. If he had been seeking sex, the encounter would have been entirely consensual. Some civil rights experts also point out that police do not seek to entrap heterosexual men or women into having anonymous sex in the toilets, for example, of a nightclub.

As it was, Craig has been arrested for merely touching the foot of an undercover police officer who was seeking to have his foot tapped. The incident has also shown just how anti-gay the Republican party can instinctively be, especially with a presidential nomination process under way in which religious conservatives play a prominent role.

The party has plenty of disgraced politicians who have kept their jobs. Just look at Vitter. His phone number appeared in the 'DC Madam' scandal and he confessed to using prostitutes. For several surreal weeks, Vitter - who campaigns on 'family values' - was trailed around Congress, pursued by television cameras. But he kept his job.

Or there is Senator Ted Stevens, a Republican whose home has been raided by the FBI and is the subject of a criminal investigation into bribery. Yet he remains head of a top Senate finance committee.

Yet Craig's hamfisted attempt at toilet sex, if such it was, instantly ended his political life. 'Apparently, in the view of the Republican party, there is nothing more serious than a member attempting to engage in gay sex,' said Melanie Sloan, executive director of the watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. Craig now knows this, to his cost.

observer.guardian.co.uk


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7360804 - 09/02/07 03:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Another fudge-packer bites the dust.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361748 - 09/02/07 01:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"If he had been seeking sex, the encounter would have been entirely consensual. Some civil rights experts also point out that police do not seek to entrap heterosexual men or women into having anonymous sex in the toilets, for example, of a nightclub."

yeah. i don't really see why what he did should be illegal. is it illegal to try to get laid? if you're gay?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7361770 - 09/02/07 01:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I see no reason why what he did was committing a crime. The officer played along (acording to the state's position). Untill it becomes clear that the defendant intended to engage in sex in the public place, there is no crime- the conduct is permissable first amendment expression.

If corporations have a first amendment right to donate to politicians, than you can solicit sex (without course language or offensive conduct) in public places. I understand that the state can limit the conduct occuring in the bathroom, but they cannot prohibit nonverbal signals or whatnot.

Can you not pickup a girl at the bar? Sure you can- you just can't be intimate there. Same thing here, untill its clear he was harrasing an uniterested party, intended to engage in sex in the bathroom, or reasonably caused someone to be afraid, he commits nothing thats a crime.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: johnm214]
    #7361789 - 09/02/07 01:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

All the talk of marriage boils down to an equal protection argument. All citizens should have the equal protection of the law. Gays should be able to enjoy the same privledges to marry (and the legal rights that come with it) that straights do. Simple as that.

But whatever your position, I agree with McCain- it is a state issue, and the feds have no buisness interfereing through legislation, except to the extent they clarify how different schemes in different states work while the couple are outside the state they married in. This latter point is arguably a right that must be recognized by another state, under the full-faith and credit clause, but I'll defer on that to someone who knows more about it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: wilshire]
    #7361810 - 09/02/07 01:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i don't really see why what he did should be illegal

Because he was trying to do it in a public toilet.

I have NO problem with people doing whatever consentual thing they want in their bedroom, but c'mon, not in an airport toilet.

There are plenty of gay hookup sites on the internet where he can find what he's looking for without freaking out little kids trying to pee while he and his friend jerk off in the stall next to the urinal.

I have gay friends who've explained how this works. It's never just about making contact. Some jerking and sometimes touching and sucking usually happens before it moves somewhere more private. There's a sense of risk that adds to the whole scene and this is why some guys look for ass in a public place instead of online or in a gay club.

But to be clear, these people are a tiny minority of the gay subculture, just like weird straight people are a small minority too. The majority of gays seek each other out in appropriate ways.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361875 - 09/02/07 01:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ya know, I hadn't thought of the notion that he wasn't expressing any provable desire to get a hummer or whatever right there. He may have been feeling the guy out to make a date at a no-tell. Which doesn't make him any less of a pitiful asshole, but where was the crime? Why did this retard think it would just blow away if he pleaded to DC?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361882 - 09/02/07 02:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But what did he do? I have no problem convicting him of intent to engage in sex in a bathroom, but did he preform actions that could prove that? I dont' think so.

Picking up someone in a bathroom is discusting, but not illegal. Harrasing someone, pursuing them after they turn you down, loitering after you've done your buisness, and actually intending to engage in sex there are all legitimate crimes. Simply asking someone out is not.

I'm just saying that I can't believe he intended to have sex in the bathroom (beyond a reasonable doubt) and I would find him not guilty (w/ the evidence I know now). You have the right to ask someone out. The officer played along with him, played footsie, tapped his foot, et cet- so the guy continued.

I think its gross, but untill there's something showing the man was intending to have sex (or harrased a non-consenting flirting target) there is no crime.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: Diploid]
    #7361900 - 09/02/07 02:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
i don't really see why what he did should be illegal

Because he was trying to do it in a public toilet.

I have NO problem with people doing whatever consentual thing they want in their bedroom, but c'mon, not in an airport toilet.

There are plenty of gay hookup sites on the internet where he can find what he's looking for without freaking out little kids trying to pee while he and his friend jerk off in the stall next to the urinal.

I have gay friends who've explained how this works. It's never just about making contact. Some jerking and sometimes touching and sucking usually happens before it moves somewhere more private. There a sense of risk that adds to the whole scene and this is why some guys look for ass in a public place instead of online or in a gay club.

But to be clear, these people are a tiny minority of the gay subculture, just like weird straight people are a small minority too. The majority of gays seek each other out in appropriate ways.




I'm not normally prone to side with conspirisists, but why does this thing stink?
It smacks of someone wanting this guy out of the way of something.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: hummermania00]
    #7361951 - 09/02/07 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, the timing of the release is a bit suspicious. Like in the Foley case when they sat on revealing it until it was too late to select another candidate. Feh, another moron removed. Although I do think he should have fought it. I also think he shouldn't have been such a scummy liar. Man up, be a homo if you want. Homos have a better shot at being elected than atheists.


--------------------


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7362056 - 09/02/07 03:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well, the timing of the release is a bit suspicious. Like in the Foley case when they sat on revealing it until it was too late to select another candidate. Feh, another moron removed. Although I do think he should have fought it. I also think he shouldn't have been such a scummy liar. Man up, be a homo if you want. Homos have a better shot at being elected than atheists.




Yep, I agree with you there.
Seems to be an all too frequent pattern of: do something - get caught - deny it - get caught lying also - quit.
The stakes of political position must be high indeed.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republican Senator Larry Craig arrested in men's bathroom [Re: hummermania00]
    #7362151 - 09/02/07 04:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yep... Like Congressman Ney from ohio- tied to abramoff. Denied the charges, promised to seek relection, filed the paperwork to seek relection and went campaigining, then just dropped everything and pled guilty.

I hate that shit. At least if the guy messed up he could just say so and I'd be more likely to forgive him.

Like Clinton. If he just would have told the truth, or refused to answer, the whole blowjob-gate thing would have been worth nothing (other than the civil lawsuit) instead he decided to perjur himself over an incident that was pretty much irrelevant.

Dumb politicians should just admit when they make a mistake, stop showboating.


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