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Offlinewickedscepter
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Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy
    #7334128 - 08/25/07 09:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

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OfflineNychthemeronster
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: wickedscepter]
    #7334187 - 08/25/07 09:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You don't like him anymore because of his stance on one issue?

Could you be so short sighted?


--------------------
The lost art of liberty


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Offlinewickedscepter
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: Nychthemeronster]
    #7334209 - 08/25/07 09:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, it sort of makes me question how much he supports individual liberties like he says when he doesn't support a woman's right to choose. That's quite a contradiction eh?


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OfflineNychthemeronster
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: wickedscepter]
    #7334254 - 08/25/07 10:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hang on a second let me watch this video again...

In the course of any good speaker's presentation they have to be privy to
their audience or they eventually end up speaking to a wall of blank faces
that turn off and don't listen.

He is at a Republican fundraiser trying to make money.
Hes going to say things that appeal to Republicans.
That being said I don't hear him say anything about a woman's right to chose.

In this video Ron Paul is talking about laws regarding unborn fetuses not
regarding abortion, such as holding the Doctors involved responsible in the
case of accidents, as well as killing an unborn fetus in a violent act. Not in an
abortion situation.

He then goes on to talk about Roe vs. Wade. With a little bit of research you
can see that this supreme court decision rules that abortion is covered under
the constitutional right to privacy on the mothers part. Under this decision the
state and federal governments are restricted from passing laws that restrict
a woman's right to abort a fetus.

Ron Paul being a strict constitutionalist is opposed to this kind of ruling
because it has a carpeting effect and restricts the local state governments
from passing their own laws. This kind of a ruling technically violates the 10th
amendment because it is not explicitly spelled out in the constitution.

So what I got from this video is that Ron Paul is trying to defend individual
liberties by giving the power of such decisions to the local governments
instead of trying to make a one-size-fits-all regulation at the federal level that
would obviously not be effective.

Let me know if I missed something...


--------------------
The lost art of liberty


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: Nychthemeronster]
    #7334300 - 08/25/07 10:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think its interesting an anti-abortion guy is also anti-death penalty. Seems consistant to me.

Regradless, other than through supreme court appointments Ron Paul would not do anything to act on this belief. He is opposed to federal interference with state lawmaking. My guess is that he would appoint judges that overturn roe, but only on states' rights grounds


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: johnm214]
    #7334313 - 08/25/07 10:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The other thing is that I don't see how life can begin at conception, rather than when totepotency stops (at the earliest).
Up to that point you can create several people from that one embryo by splitting it, or combine several people into one person by fusing them.

This seems inconcsistant with the view of one soul one person.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: wickedscepter]
    #7334709 - 08/26/07 12:42 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wickedscepter said:
Well, it sort of makes me question how much he supports individual liberties like he says when he doesn't support a woman's right to choose. That's quite a contradiction eh?




few things:

1 - i'm anti-life/pro-abortion, however i'm not going to let this one issue make me not like Ron Paul. It's such a small issue, for such a crowded planet.

2 - a women DOES have a right to choose - whether or not to open her legs. If a recreational activity turned into more than expected, welcome to life - every aspect of it. Abortion does not take away the original choice

3 - there's always plan B, condoms, spermicide, adoption and welfare.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: kotik]
    #7335124 - 08/26/07 03:26 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

women can always chose to suck dick or take it in the ass instead which i feel is a very valid point in the direction that dumb bitches like to make men commit to shit all the time but can't commit to their own fetus/unborn child.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7335132 - 08/26/07 03:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

farthermore i found out why women are so happy its because they never grew up, which is why they all still like FUCKING CARTOONS!, always had everything done for them.

notice men grow up by being thrown into the world, while women grow up by getting knocked up and married.

sorry i had to upload this out of my mind before i lost it, everyone feel free to just ignore it.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (08/26/07 03:28 AM)


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OfflineStreetFreak
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Registered: 02/10/07
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: wickedscepter]
    #7335187 - 08/26/07 03:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wickedscepter said:
Well, it sort of makes me question how much he supports individual liberties like he says when he doesn't support a woman's right to choose. That's quite a contradiction eh?




I don't agree with abortion. This is why: Don't think if abortion is illegal the mother doesn't have the right to choose. She has the right to choose (most of the time unless raped etc.) to not get fucked. Having offspring is at the very nature of sex, yet many females get fucked and then choose to never even let their baby have the option of choosing. If the woman wants to choose, then do whats right. Don't go fucking around and get knocked up, and then abort the baby because of all the "problems" it would bring into their lives. Anyways, it doesn't really matter if abortion is illegal.. the extreme will get done what they see fit one way or another. Even if a kid is put up for adoption, I still consider it better than terminating it. Life is better than no life at all. At least he/she will find love this way.


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OfflineStreetFreak
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: kotik]
    #7335192 - 08/26/07 04:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

wickedscepter said:
Well, it sort of makes me question how much he supports individual liberties like he says when he doesn't support a woman's right to choose. That's quite a contradiction eh?




few things:

1 - i'm anti-life/pro-abortion, however i'm not going to let this one issue make me not like Ron Paul. It's such a small issue, for such a crowded planet.

2 - a women DOES have a right to choose - whether or not to open her legs. If a recreational activity turned into more than expected, welcome to life - every aspect of it. Abortion does not take away the original choice

3 - there's always plan B, condoms, spermicide, adoption and welfare.




I didn't see this post before I posted, but I agree with points 2 & 3.

It's only a small issue though, to the ones that are not having to go through it.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: wickedscepter]
    #7335448 - 08/26/07 07:47 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Abortion does not take away the original choice




The original choice might not have been to get knocked up, and people do make mistakes.

What's the reason you would care about some random unborn?
There are millions of children starving. You can always help them if preventing death means so much to you?

I think Ron needs to say those things in order to stand a chance among the republican crowd. Many religious fanatics are waiting for their Messiah


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: Arp]
    #7335712 - 08/26/07 11:46 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Did any of you catch the jist of him not wanting federaly funded abortions? I know I don't want to pay for some chicks cop out.The whole "right to choose" thing is true everyone has a right to choose even women who want to end the life they allowed to begin, there is no reason I should pay for her choice.
As for when life begins....it is fucking incredible the aguement even exists. At fertilization the cells are alive, yes they can divide into twins, triplets or remain a single blastocyte but the fact remains an aborton kills it. So we have folks arguing about basicaly when the soul enters the picture like it defines the issue. Acording to some beliefs it is at 42 days.I know a chick who aborted a six month old baby. why aren't she and the doctor murderers?.
Boil it down, most chicks don't have a clue they are pregnant for a couple weeks to a couple months then it takes time to get in to the clinic so by the time the baby is killed it has formed into a lil human and it is A-OK cause it was a woman's choice.
If I slammed into her car on the way to the clinic and killed the baby I could be charged with murder or manslaughter. This is schizophrenic law and there are many other solutions to women who don't want their sexual consequences that don't involve killing another human in progress.That there is even arguement about this is amazing.
BTW Hey dudes guess what? you stick it in that problem is half yours. So she opened her legs, you stuck it in. You made a choice to possibly make life also.
So quit with the open leg arguement and man up! There probably would not be as many abortions if men were responsible for there choice also. Just another symptom of how life is cheap now. Time was a child was a great gift not a burden and problem to be removed. Sad how callous we have become tword the most innocent and how we have catered to the irresponsibility of both men and women's sexuality
WR
PS I am no religious zealot or fanatical anti-abortion guy, but christ on a crutch killing humans in progress is fucking wrong. No matter how you cloak the aguement in when "Life" begins the fact is it ends with abortion and that cheapens life. So how low are we willing to go on the value of life? Look around and see they way it is wasted these days. Abortion is just one of many ways found to make our lives less meaningful and valuable.
WR


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OfflineNychthemeronster
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: Nychthemeronster]
    #7335882 - 08/26/07 12:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

What disappoints me most about this issue is how much attention it
draws away from other more important issues. Its such a big cloud of misdirection.
Houdini would be proud.

I have a good friend of mine whose favorite saying is 'to each his own'.
What no one seems to realize in this grand argument is that not everyone is
going to agree with your particular beliefs, and you won't agree with
everyone else's beliefs.

The whole point of local governments is so that the people of each region can
make a decision that is best for those people. Everyone seems to be saying
"Fuck your beliefs I'm the one thats correct" and we try to make some
ultimatum that everyone will be forced to live under.

Why does everybody think that somebody most likely thousands of miles
away in some office in D.C. is going to be able to create a system that fits
with everyones beliefs and values?? Federalism at its best...


--------------------
The lost art of liberty


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: whiterasta]
    #7335894 - 08/26/07 12:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Will, you kindly point me in the direction of any evidence that even remotely illustrates what a "soul" is and why anybody should believe that such a thing is in any sense real. Outside of fever dreams, that is. "I can fly, I can fly."


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7336132 - 08/26/07 02:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

quote]zappaisgod said:
Will, you kindly point me in the direction of any evidence that even remotely illustrates what a "soul" is and why anybody should believe that such a thing is in any sense real.  Outside of fever dreams, that is.  "I can fly, I can fly."




Mentioned in response to:
Quote:

The other thing is that I don't see how life can begin at conception, rather than when totepotency stops (at the earliest).
Up to that point you can create several people from that one embryo by splitting it, or combine several people into one person by fusing them.

This seems inconcsistant with the view of one soul one person.






According to some hindu beliefs the "soul" enters the fetus at 42 days, Were you not in such a hurry to bitch smack me you would have caught the reference.
Why do I find it totaly predictable you would not grok the concept of soul? Perhaps it is the strictly linear thought you use? When you can point out what your essence is you may get it. My essence is my soul it is the gestalt of my physical body and my mental processes. It does not change with mood or emotion as it is the whole of ones being, physical and mental, together in gestalt creating more than the sum of the parts. The hindus say this occurs around 42 days post conception. Christians say it happens at conception. I don't claim to know when the gestalt of mental and physical begins but it does happen or we would have found where consciousness arises from by now as a localized structure of the nervous system. But it is non -localized and a function of the gestalt of mental and physical components and the social/material portion of the soul.
Now cut and paste your arguement about my pie eyed dreaming:biggrin:
WR


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: whiterasta]
    #7336252 - 08/26/07 02:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
quote]zappaisgod said:
Will, you kindly point me in the direction of any evidence that even remotely illustrates what a "soul" is and why anybody should believe that such a thing is in any sense real.  Outside of fever dreams, that is.  "I can fly, I can fly."




Mentioned in response to:
Quote:

The other thing is that I don't see how life can begin at conception, rather than when totepotency stops (at the earliest).
Up to that point you can create several people from that one embryo by splitting it, or combine several people into one person by fusing them.

This seems inconcsistant with the view of one soul one person.







No, it wasn't specifically that sentence.  It was rather this one:
Quote:

So we have folks arguing about basicaly when the soul enters the picture like it defines the issue.





You seem to accept without question that there is in fact an easter bunny, er, I mean soul.
Quote:



According to some hindu beliefs the "soul" enters the fetus at 42 days, Were you not in such a hurry to bitch smack me you would have caught the reference.




I do not care what Hindu beliefs are outside of a curiosity about general nonsense.
Quote:


Why do I find it totaly predictable you would not grok the concept of soul? Perhaps it is the strictly linear thought you use? When you can point out what your essence is you may get it. My essence is my soul it is the gestalt of my physical body and my mental processes. It does not change with mood or emotion as it is the whole of ones being, physical and mental, together in gestalt creating more than the sum of the parts. The hindus say this occurs around 42 days post conception. Christians say it happens at conception. I don't claim to know when the gestalt of mental and physical begins but it does happen or we would have found where consciousness arises from by now as a localized structure of the nervous system. But it is non -localized and a function of the gestalt of mental and physical components and the social/material portion of the soul.
Now cut and paste your arguement about my pie eyed dreaming:biggrin:
WR




As expected you cannot provide any evidence of a soul (or, now, "essence" or "gestalt".  Next we'll hear "ego" and "id") other than that you wish it to exist.  Vonnegut's Universal Will To Become, as it were.  Quaint but useless.

30 years ago I was in college studying psychology.  Consciousness was my specific interest (I still consider psychoanalysis and all it's ridiculous permutations to be a religion).  The field was woefully inadequate.  Since then great strides have been made.  There will be no physical singulate gyrus of consciousness although there do seem to be some centers that are particularly important in the visual cortex and the language and memory areas.  I would direct you to Francis Crick's book "The Astonishing Hypothesis" and some of Pinker's work.

The failure of psychology to currently describe consciousness does not in any way validate the existence of a "soul".  Or Easter bunny.  Though the Romans thought that thunder was the gods bowling it did not actually make it anything other than the result of a bolt of electricity expanding air molecules.  Ignorance does not present evidence of the truth of nonsense.

Now I have read what you said that acknowledges the nonlocalized nature of this "soul".  And yet you avoid describing what you mean by "soul".  Because it seems different from the commonly applied meaning.  At any rate, there is a very strong argument made in cognitive psychology about consciousness not being realized until well after the actual birth (months).  Julian Jaynes might well argue even longer, I don't really remember his precise argument.

So, what is this soul and what makes you think there is one?


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: whiterasta]
    #7336264 - 08/26/07 03:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

No religion will make this "soul" suffer. Hindus reincarnate & Christians go to heaven (if you never get to sin, it should be straight way up).


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: Arp]
    #7336288 - 08/26/07 03:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

And Islamic nuts get 72 virgins when they martyr themselves. IT'S ALL TRUE!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ron Paul - I really wanted to like this guy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7336414 - 08/26/07 03:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

*Not directed any anyone in particular*

This is a very interesting tangent, but it's also WAY off topic.

Let's get back to Ron Paul and take the religion and psychoanalysis to a new thread in P&S, please.

TY


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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