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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineLion
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Solitary enlightenment
    #7317448 - 08/21/07 01:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

WTF. If Enlightenment means non-duality, then how can you be enlightened while the people you know are not? Is it true that you can only go as fast as the slowest kids in class? There's probably something to that.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Lion]
    #7317498 - 08/21/07 01:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Because everyone is already enlightened. Everyone is already not enlightened. You realize that there really is no difference, and the difference doesn't matter. LIVE!


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Lion]
    #7317508 - 08/21/07 01:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe enlightenment is an illusion. Maybe it has to do with death anxiety. Maybe everything just is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Lion]
    #7318282 - 08/21/07 05:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It is non-dual, but only the enlightened realize the non-duality.
Hey, I used to be as opaque as a chunk of coal, but I'm much closer to being a diamond-body. Light is beginning to pass through me, whereas it used to be stopped by my unconscious nature. Becoming conscious means being transparent to the Light. Ultimately, there is only Light - manifest and Unmanifest. Coal and diamonds are temporary manifestations and as ephemeral as clouds in the clear and boundless sky.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Lion]
    #7318400 - 08/21/07 05:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

so many words...

you can't "what-if" your way to enlightenment.
but you can "if" your way to confusion.

the words are just pointers to a way that is not fixed


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7318751 - 08/21/07 07:25 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It is non-dual, but only the enlightened realize the non-duality.
Hey, I used to be as opaque as a chunk of coal, but I'm much closer to being a  diamond-body. Light is beginning to pass through me, whereas it used to be stopped by my unconscious nature. Becoming conscious means being transparent to the Light. Ultimately, there is only Light - manifest and Unmanifest. Coal and diamonds are temporary manifestations and as ephemeral as clouds in the clear and boundless sky.




Yeah, me too. I'm almost there. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7320687 - 08/22/07 07:46 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Maybe enlightenment is an illusion. Maybe it has to do with death anxiety. Maybe everything just is.




"[To] the ego, death is always just around the corner. In this mind-identified state, fear of death affects every aspect of your life. For example, even such a trivial and 'normal' thing as the compulsive need to be right in an argument and make the other person wrong - defending the mental position with which you have identified - is due to the fear of death. If you identify with a mental position, then if you are wrong, your mind-based sense of self is seriously threatened by annihilation. So you as the ego cannot afford to be wrong. To be wrong is to die."

Page 36, The Power of Now


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7321253 - 08/22/07 01:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Zactly my point. Enlightenment also can be the Egos need for immortality. If we become enlightened then we are beyond life and death.

But really as no one is enlightened as far as we know, it most likely is a ploy and an ego defense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7321719 - 08/22/07 03:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
as far as we know




Speak for yourself :wink:


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7321842 - 08/22/07 03:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry oh enlightened one. Everyone except jonathanseagull.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7322060 - 08/22/07 04:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Don't be so nay-saying. I've noticed at times of trial that although I might be nervous and anxious - as Tolle says, emotions are the body's reaction to thoughts - there is this Calm Center that seems to be watching the whole psychosomatic drama. To the extent that I (paradoxically) Identify with that Center, I Experience Enlightenment. It is not turned-on full-time, but I'm like a fluorescent tube that is blinking on and off before it lights up. Now, these moments used to be dependent on psychedelic-samadhis, but I've come to Realize that they shine through my everyday mind as well.

It is just not OK to say to oneself or another "I am enlightened," because the "I" is always gonna be interpreted as the ego talking about itself, not the ego talking about Being. So the only honest way to communicate Enlightenment is by Being Enlightened around others. It seems to be a 'field effect' - sometimes animals see it best. I've talked squirrels out of trees, been allowed by a car-clipped chipmunk to pick him up, put him in the bushes and scratch his tummy to his enjoyment, and a large pelican allowed me to put my arm around him while a friend removed a fish hook and line from his neck - all happened in spontaneous moments with wild animals (not park critters). I spoke to the pelican to convey 'vibes,' and emulated squirrel chatter, but I rather think that diminished ego and immersion in Being was what was communicated.

I used to wish for wild birds to land on me while meditating on acid in the woods (seeking a sign of deep peace). It seemed that critters used to draw closer in the trees, and I wondered 'did they see my 'rainbow body?'

As BE HERE NOW says: "You are the desire to be enlightened - You are enlightened." Now, I am not speaking here of myself, or more precisely, of my ego. My Self includes everyone's Self or Being - that Calm Center that I spoke of above that is common to ALL of us. Not something my ego and all it's experiences has attained, but the awareness of Being illuminated by Being. It is simple and it is experiential, but again, it is not right to proclaim it vocally because something seems diminished by doing so. Even if it is NOT our ego talking, others project ego onto the proclaimer and react to their own projection! It's called projective identification. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that some real Enlightenment that flashes forth through this cyberspace!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7322067 - 08/22/07 05:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Much better!  :rofl:


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlineonlynow
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7322238 - 08/22/07 05:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It is non-dual, but only the enlightened realize the non-duality.
Hey, I used to be as opaque as a chunk of coal, but I'm much closer to being a diamond-body. Light is beginning to pass through me, whereas it used to be stopped by my unconscious nature. Becoming conscious means being transparent to the Light. Ultimately, there is only Light - manifest and Unmanifest. Coal and diamonds are temporary manifestations and as ephemeral as clouds in the clear and boundless sky.




seen this craziness?

http://www.akasha.de/~aton/LBT.html


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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Offlineonlynow
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7322254 - 08/22/07 06:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:Even if it is NOT our ego talking, others project ego onto the proclaimer and react to their own projection! It's called projective identification.




thats a new term to me... thanx! :sun:


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: onlynow]
    #7322371 - 08/22/07 06:28 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have now. Craziness it is.

"Take your meditations and your preparations and ram them up your snout!"
-Frank Zappa in 'Cosmic Debris'


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Offlineonlynow
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7322379 - 08/22/07 06:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:lol::thumbup:


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7323378 - 08/22/07 10:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

While I agree that there can be a calm center and a feeling of someone watching the scene as I also have experienced. I can not tell what that is. This may not be enlightenment but some aspect of mind. I just don't know and just because people have been saying it is enlightenment, soul, or Atman, certainly don't make it so.

I am really not a nay sayer, I'm a somewhat rational and honest person about things that I cannot be sure of and I say so.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #7323504 - 08/22/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

everyone knows what its like to observe - to be detached
but you can observe that observer right?
and then detach even more...

is there a limit to how far this can go?


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: Epigallo]
    #7323548 - 08/22/07 11:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
everyone knows what its like to observe - to be detached
but you can observe that observer right?
and then detach even more...

is there a limit to how far this can go?




You can't go very far because you are always here. The limit to how far you can detach from yourself is, in my opinion, decided by how much you choose to not be in the present moment. Even if you do this consistently for a long time and "push the boundaries" you will never be very far from the center. Unless I am confused and you don't really mean detatchment but realization?

When I used to meditate often I was able to reach this calm center more easily and I understand why people say it is enlightenment, or our essential selves.. empathy and understanding increases tenfold and I felt more like myself, to me it felt like the calmness of being around 7 or 8 years old, starting to slow down but not robotosized by education and media. I was the same person who sat down to start meditating but I could SEE everything more clearly. It wasn't detatchment, it was being fully in the moment.


--------------------


Edited by EternalCowabunga (08/22/07 11:43 PM)


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Solitary enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7323596 - 08/22/07 11:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

well...no, not realization
like how you can "listen" to yourself listening
but then you notice the person listening to listening
maybe not in such discrete steps,
but further down the chain of being

so detachment means a change in identification
not detachment from the present moment

and I was wondering if there is a limit to how far you can go in this respect


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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