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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling
    #7317240 - 08/21/07 11:51 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Let us assume that several Enlightened Masters have walked the earth. Let us also assume that each one could have fully opened the eyes of at least two disciples in a span of thirty or so years so that the disciples themselves became Enlightened Masters.

If an Enlightened Master could not open the eyes of at least two other people then I would postulate that he/she totally sucked as a Master and should have his/her certificate revoked.

In the short span of a few thousand years due to the the Law of Doubling, the entire world would become enlightened, wars would cease and peace would reign on our planet and it would be the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

However, as the maturity level of mankind seems to have been unaffected since we first made fire, I think it reasonable to assume that no Enlightened Masters have ever existed or they existed and were unable to transmit any useful knowledge.

Case closed. (Sorry Hue.)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7317267 - 08/21/07 11:58 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yep.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7317269 - 08/21/07 11:59 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps enlightenment cannot be "transmitted." :shrug:

IMO, if enlightenment is possible, it is not a permanent state one attains, but more of a flickering illumination that blinks out after a brief period.  Any effective method of enlightenment would be geared towards lengthening this period of illumination, and increasing awareness of the habits which extinguish it again.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7317356 - 08/21/07 12:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps enlightenment cannot be "transmitted."




I stated that was a possibility. If this IS the case, then we can dispense with ALL religion, gurus, swamis (sorry, Swami), spiritual books, seminars, camps, ashrams, monasteries, churches, temples, synagogues, televangelistas, and priest-altar boy sex.

Now, who wants to be initiated?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7317361 - 08/21/07 12:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Initiated? Will this involve wooden paddles and heavy drinking?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7317381 - 08/21/07 12:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Can't tell you ahead of time (however, be sure to bring a jar of mayonnaise, some flippers and a squirt gun). Are you in or out?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7317396 - 08/21/07 12:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You mean in and out don't you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7317403 - 08/21/07 12:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'll check my schedule & get back to you. :rolleyes:  :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7317413 - 08/21/07 12:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Don't worry, I'll watch the kids.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7317522 - 08/21/07 01:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Perhaps enlightenment cannot be "transmitted."




I stated that was a possibility. If this IS the case, then we can dispense with ALL religion, gurus, swamis (sorry, Swami), spiritual books, seminars, camps, ashrams, monasteries, churches, temples, synagogues, televangelistas, and priest-altar boy sex.

Now, who wants to be initiated?




I believe this is the case. But I believe you misunderstand the process. The things you listed are tools used in the process of attaining self-realization. They are not the direct transmission of enlightenment. Just because someone hands you a pen and a piece of paper, doesn't mean your homework is completed. It means you now have the tools to complete it yourself. Nobody else can do it for you, and this is why it cannot be transmitted.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7317542 - 08/21/07 01:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Well that makes sense except for the fact that we do not know if there is such a thing as "enlightenment". Can you honestly say you have ever met an enlightened being? And if you say you have how did you determine this, not being enlightened yourself?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7317563 - 08/21/07 01:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Dudely, it is like the Mayan Calendar and 2012 - it is 'common' knowledge. :rolleyes:


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7317573 - 08/21/07 01:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well that makes sense except for the fact that we do not know if there is such a thing as "enlightenment". Can you honestly say you have ever met an enlightened being? And if you say you have how did you determine this, not being enlightened yourself?




I don't think there is a final enlightened state. I think there are degrees to enlightenment, meaning that I think some people not only have obtained certain philosophical knowledge, but they have also realized this knowledge to the point where they have indeed destroyed any existential anxiety within themselves. I have met one person who I felt had reached this point.

Again, like I said in another thread, it doesn't matter. Sometimes, the people in the "dream of everyday life" aka the unaware, live life more fully than those who have become aware, because those who become aware spend a lot of time trying to rid themselves of the anxiety they took upon by becoming aware. Then, guess what, when they rid themselves of it, they return full circle back to the "dream of everyday life" style, but aware. Is the journey even neccessary? I don't know, and don't really care. I say we need to get back to basics, and just enjoy life.

EDIT: What I meant to type and forgot was that I don't think the term "enlightenment" is even neccessary. It describes the path, the only path, and that path is life. We are all enlightened, but some to a higher degree. We are all living life, some in a more fullfilling fashion. But regardless, we are all living life.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


Edited by jonathanseagull (08/21/07 01:37 PM)


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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #7317894 - 08/21/07 03:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by soulcircus (08/21/07 03:24 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7318037 - 08/21/07 04:10 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I agree.:thumbup: Good post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: soulcircus]
    #7318042 - 08/21/07 04:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

soulcircus said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well that makes sense except for the fact that we do not know if there is such a thing as "enlightenment". Can you honestly say you have ever met an enlightened being? And if you say you have how did you determine this, not being enlightened yourself?






not calling anything enlightenment...
but, don't we have the potential to be completely truthful and accepting of ourselves?





From all available evidence I would have to guess, NO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7318463 - 08/21/07 06:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Buddha never said he was 'enlightened', only that he was 'awake'. Even if there are teachers who are awake, that does not mean that everyone is going to want to wake up just like him/her. For example, the Buddha had serious thoughts about not teaching as he thought no one would be receptive to the truths he had awakened too. How naive to think that just because someone awakens, everyone else will want to do the same thing. Its not easy like flipping a light switch, the path to awakening is very difficult and requires a lot of perseverance, dedication. Its not for everyone thats for sure. All of this is why alot of people including myself are not awakened yet.


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Edited by Sinbad (08/21/07 07:32 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Sinbad]
    #7318738 - 08/21/07 07:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Sinbad]
    #7318765 - 08/21/07 07:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Buddha never said he was 'enlightened', only that he was 'awake'.




The Buddha spoke English? Nope. His exact words were recorded? Nope. You are just making shit up.

There are awesome tennis players and engineers and musicians etc. today because of modelling and handed down knowledge.

How different would the world be today if no masters had lived besides having fewer smug clubs to belong to? (Hint: A difference that makes no difference IS no difference.)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7318784 - 08/21/07 07:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Buddha spoke English? Nope.

Were you there? Nope. So you don't really know whether he spoke English or not do you? You are just making all that shit up.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7318809 - 08/21/07 07:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

My Dear Ice Cube:

First off, you know me better'n dat.

Secondly, check when Buddha lived, then check to see when England became a nation.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7318817 - 08/21/07 07:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Minor details in this magical world. :fairy:  :voila:  :meatspace:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7319774 - 08/21/07 11:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let us assume that several Enlightened Masters have walked the earth. Let us also assume that each one could have fully opened the eyes of at least two disciples in a span of thirty or so years so that the disciples themselves became Enlightened Masters.

If an Enlightened Master could not open the eyes of at least two other people then I would postulate that he/she totally sucked as a Master and should have his/her certificate revoked.

In the short span of a few thousand years due to the the Law of Doubling, the entire world would become enlightened, wars would cease and peace would reign on our planet and it would be the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

However, as the maturity level of mankind seems to have been unaffected since we first made fire, I think it reasonable to assume that no Enlightened Masters have ever existed or they existed and were unable to transmit any useful knowledge.

Case closed. (Sorry Hue.)




What about Masters of the Flying Guillotine?

According to the law of doubling, if even one master of the flying guillotine ever walked the earth, we'd all be pretty dead by now. But we'd still be impressed, because "Man," we'd say, "That guy had a flying guillotine."

Seriously though, there's a huge fault in the notion that there is some kind of ultimate achievement, some kind of spiritual goal that everyone has to look toward. We're all just existing here, and the "enlightened" seem to realize that above all else: the point of existence is to appreciate the beauty of existence. There is no game, no prize for the person who dies the most "enlightened". Anyone who tells you otherwise is caught up in the same stupid game that produces the most damaging, unfulfilling aspects of all kinds of religious thought.


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FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
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Offlineonlynow
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7320406 - 08/22/07 03:32 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Perhaps enlightenment cannot be "transmitted."




I stated that was a possibility. If this IS the case, then we can dispense with ALL religion, gurus, swamis (sorry, Swami), spiritual books, seminars, camps, ashrams, monasteries, churches, temples, synagogues, televangelistas, and priest-altar boy sex.

Now, who wants to be initiated?




I believe this is the case. But I believe you misunderstand the process. The things you listed are tools used in the process of attaining self-realization. They are not the direct transmission of enlightenment. Just because someone hands you a pen and a piece of paper, doesn't mean your homework is completed. It means you now have the tools to complete it yourself. Nobody else can do it for you, and this is why it cannot be transmitted.




i haven't read the rest of the thread, but this post alone is everything i wanted to say + more.

Orgone, your logic to me sounds obscure and your original post tells me you hardly have an understanding or experience of self-realization.

but of course that is just my perspective...

i'm "Ignorant, puerile, and a thief!", who would listen to my petty words?


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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Offlineonlynow
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7320408 - 08/22/07 03:35 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well that makes sense except for the fact that we do not know if there is such a thing as "enlightenment". Can you honestly say you have ever met an enlightened being? And if you say you have how did you determine this, not being enlightened yourself?




I don't think there is a final enlightened state.  I think there are degrees to enlightenment, meaning that I think some people not only have obtained certain philosophical knowledge, but they have also realized this knowledge to the point where they have indeed destroyed any existential anxiety within themselves.  I have met one person who I felt had reached this point.

Again, like I said in another thread, it doesn't matter.  Sometimes, the people in the "dream of everyday life" aka the unaware, live life more fully than those who have become aware, because those who become aware spend a lot of time trying to rid themselves of the anxiety they took upon by becoming aware.  Then, guess what, when they rid themselves of it, they return full circle back to the "dream of everyday life" style, but aware.  Is the journey even neccessary?  I don't know, and don't really care.  I say we need to get back to basics, and just enjoy life.

EDIT:  What I meant to type and forgot was that I don't think the term "enlightenment" is even neccessary.  It describes the path, the only path, and that path is life.  We are all enlightened, but some to a higher degree.  We are all living life, some in a more fullfilling fashion.  But regardless, we are all living life.




couldn't have said it better myself :thumbup:


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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Offlineonlynow
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: onlynow]
    #7320412 - 08/22/07 03:37 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

wow this thread is full of life :sun:

/talks to myself summore


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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: onlynow]
    #7320787 - 08/22/07 09:29 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

OrgoneConclusion, are we also assuming that peace is associated with enlightenment?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7320800 - 08/22/07 09:41 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Do you even know what the word 'Buddha' means Orgone?

It is written down in a Sutra (really can't be bothered to find the citation) that the Buddha met a man on the road who asked questions like 'Are you a God' etc, to which Buddha answered 'No'. The man then asked something like 'Well what are you', the Buddha then replied 'I am awake'. You can choose yourself whether or not to accept whether this really took place, thats your choice. :shrug:


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Edited by Sinbad (08/22/07 10:04 AM)


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: onlynow]
    #7320864 - 08/22/07 10:20 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

onlynow said:
Orgone, your logic to me sounds obscure and your original post tells me you hardly have an understanding or experience of self-realization.





This forum is not the venue in which to make these types of statments - read the forum rules. Speculating as to the personal nature of other posters is agansit the rules and serve as a detriment to the discussion of the philosophical/spiritual ideas presented. Please take a note of this and act in accordance with this understanding in the future, thank you.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7320880 - 08/22/07 10:29 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

On a side-note, I believe Fireworks_god has just demonstrated proper use of the flying guillotine.



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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Sinbad]
    #7321296 - 08/22/07 01:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

(Not just to Sinbad) As per usual, there is no real rebuttal to my point that the world has remained seemingly unaffected in any positive way from the teachings of any masters.

Most all of people of advanced civilizations can read, write and do basic math showing a real ability to learn and pass on knowledge, yet the 'spiritual' teachings are ineffectual on society-at-large after all this time.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: onlynow]
    #7321320 - 08/22/07 01:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i'm "Ignorant, puerile, and a thief!", who would listen to my petty words?




:shrug:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321388 - 08/22/07 01:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
(Not just to Sinbad) As per usual, there is no real rebuttal to my point that the world has remained seemingly unaffected in any positive way from the teachings of any masters.

Most all of people of advanced civilizations can read, write and do basic math showing a real ability to learn and pass on knowledge, yet the 'spiritual' teachings are ineffectual on society-at-large after all this time.



You forgot about all those 'one man religions' like christianity, moslemism, (budhism,) all those crazy gurus ending with *mahadhimhamidaha*, ah, let's also take Hitler and dictators into the game, uh and don't forget the pharaos.

Where people fail to get nature, they just impose some supernaturality.
(Which in fact can and could reflect back on the later perhaps made natural discoveries.)


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321392 - 08/22/07 01:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
(Not just to Sinbad) As per usual, there is no real rebuttal to my point that the world has remained seemingly unaffected in any positive way from the teachings of any masters.

Most all of people of advanced civilizations can read, write and do basic math showing a real ability to learn and pass on knowledge, yet the 'spiritual' teachings are ineffectual on society-at-large after all this time.




I really don't see how you can make such a blanket generalization. I know people who have become more loving, compassionate, kind, wise and had there inner lives transformed and enriched by spiritual teachings. The problem is that poisons such as greed, hatred and ignorance rule the majority of minds on this planet. Even the people who have less of this are usually too comfortable and complacent to act upon the bad things in the world. But this is no failing of spirituality. There are still many people that benefit form such teachings and go on to make a difference in the world, by teaching others a path to a more compassionate and wise life. As I said in an earlier post, not everyone is going to want to wake up, and alot of people have vested interests in hatred, greed and ignorance. This is how the world is. People are still waking up, its just a fact that it will never be the 'majority'. Its alot easier to stay asleep than it is to awaken.

My advice - quit passing off the blame onto spirituality when its a fact that in alot of cases it helps us to be better people, and at very least deters people from directly harming others.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Sinbad]
    #7321416 - 08/22/07 01:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I know people who have become more loving, compassionate, kind, wise and had there inner lives transformed and enriched by spiritual teachings.




By people, I am assuming you mean more than one. And if they in turn affected others, it would not take long to transform the planet, yet nothing has changed inwardly since the beginning of man.

You reinforced my point. Case closed.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321431 - 08/22/07 01:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I know people who have become more loving, compassionate, kind, wise and had there inner lives transformed and enriched by spiritual teachings.




By people, I am assuming you mean more than one. And if they in turn affected others, it would not take long to transform the planet, yet nothing has changed inwardly since the beginning of man.

You reinforced my point. Case closed.




Not that simple, people have to 'want' to wake up, and then act upon that intention. You can show a Donkey water, but you can't make it drink. Not everyone is going to want to wake up, not everyone has that inclination. People are very attached to there cages and have vested interests in greed, hatred and ignorance. Wise and compassionate people are not omnipotent. They can only teach the way to those who want to be taught.

BTW I love the way you only bother to quote a small section of my posts, and forget about the rest. How convienent.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (08/22/07 01:55 PM)


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Sinbad]
    #7321478 - 08/22/07 02:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:blah: :blah: :blah:

Why does esoterica ALWAYS require someone to apologize for the lack of observable phenomenon?

Something that is real and actually works never needs a spokesman to explain why it only kinda, sorta, maybe works sometimes if everything is perfectly aligned and the intent is pure.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321506 - 08/22/07 02:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
:blah: :blah: :blah:

Why does esoterica ALWAYS require someone to apologize for the lack of observable phenomenon?

Something that is real and actually works never needs a spokesman to explain why it only kinda, sorta, maybe works sometimes if everything is perfectly aligned and the intent is pure.




Who is apologizing? There is no apology. Awakening can never be forced on the mass populous. Of course individuals have to want to wake up and no-one can do it for them. Something that is real and actually works requires participation and effort. If someone has no interest in a spiritual path, in awakening, then how can they have participation and effort? :shrug:


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321510 - 08/22/07 02:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmm...by this logic, shouldn't the existence of Michael Jordan result in a planet full of basketball gods within a few generations?  :wink:

Seriously, though, the path that leads inward is not one that many choose to follow.  We are primarily oriented towards survival, and secondarily oriented towards pleasure.  Once we have our survival needs met, we may spend the rest of our lifetime pursuing pleasure (and avoiding its' opposite--pain), without more than a passing thought about the Big Questions.

Those few who pursue answers (or guesses, as I prefer to call them :wink:), are unusual humans, indeed.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321513 - 08/22/07 02:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Hmmm...by this logic, shouldn't the existence of Michael Jordan result in a planet full of basketball gods within a few generations?  :wink:

Seriously, though, the path that leads inward is not one that many choose to follow.  We are primarily oriented towards survival, and secondarily oriented towards pleasure.  Once we have our survival needs met, we may spend the rest of our lifetime pursuing pleasure (and avoiding its' opposite--pain), without more than a passing thought about the Big Questions.

Those few who pursue answers (or guesses, as I prefer to call them :wink:), are unusual humans, indeed.




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321525 - 08/22/07 02:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hmmm...by this logic, shouldn't the existence of Michael Jordan result in a planet full of basketball gods within a few generations?




*sigh* Even Veritas sometimes goes astray.

1. Enlightenment as 'advertised' is available to anyone with pure intent. Superior athletic genetics cannot be taught. Please teach me how to grow to 6' 7".

2. Basketball knowledge and training has improved vastly. I would wager that any pro team today would dominate a pro team from a generation ago.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (08/22/07 03:12 PM)


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321538 - 08/22/07 02:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You forgot to quote my :wink:

My point was more about interest and inclination than natural talent, but perhaps you have introduced an important consideration--are all humans capable of pursuing the inward path?

If so few do, in fact, have "pure intent," then it would seem that just as not not all of us can be "like Mike," not all of us can be "like Buddha."


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321559 - 08/22/07 02:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

DJ would agree here. Personal power is the key factor in whatever we set out to accomplish. Without enough then failure or partial success would be the outcome.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321587 - 08/22/07 02:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If an Enlightened Master could not open the eyes of at least two other people then I would postulate that he/she totally sucked as a Master and should have his/her certificate revoked.




Why is the internal state of other people proof of an Enlightened Master's internal state? This is fallacious.

Quote:

However, as the maturity level of mankind seems to have been unaffected since we first made fire




Really? What proof can you offer for this assertion? We may still exhibit some primitive behaviors, but there have been major changes in both emotional maturity AND intellectual understanding since early humans huddled around their Magical Fire.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321749 - 08/22/07 03:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What proof can you offer for this assertion?




Slavery.

WWI and WWII.

The millions deliberately starved to death in the Ukraine by their own goverment.

The holocaust of the Jews while the world stood by.

The killing fields of Cambodia.

The Rwandan tribal slaughter.

The Biafran tribal slaughter.

The Sudanese tribal slaughter.

There are too many man-against-man atrocities to list. These pointless acts of violence speak of anger and ignorance.

Add to that the pollution of the oceans, rivers, air; the destruction of the rainforest and general deforestation worldwide; the extermination of many species and so on.

Sure there are sparks of light and spiritual maturity here and there, but seemingly not enough to make any real impact.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321759 - 08/22/07 03:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

i'm "Ignorant, puerile, and a thief!", who would listen to my petty words?




:shrug:




did you forget the rating you gave me?  :wink:

or are you just in a current state of :shrug:


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321766 - 08/22/07 03:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

None of those incidents prove that mankind has not matured since we discovered how to create fire. You are focusing on the primitive behaviors we still exhibit, rather than examining the cooperative and compassionate behaviors we have developed.

What about those who risked their lives by establishing refugee camps and hospitals during the wars you mentioned? Who sheltered Jews and aided them in leaving the country to avoid the Holocaust? Who work to clean up the environmental messes caused by the ignorant? Are they still huddled around the Magical Fire, or could they be evidence of our progression?

Do you intend to answer my question regarding your "test" of the presence of Enlightened Masters?


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321773 - 08/22/07 03:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
(Not just to Sinbad) As per usual, there is no real rebuttal to my point that the world has remained seemingly unaffected in any positive way from the teachings of any masters.




i have been affected by the teachings of certain masters.  of course you could only know this having experienced my life... other than that, :shrug:

if i didn't have the information these masters have given us, i think my run on this path to self-realization would be more like a walk... or a crawl.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: onlynow]
    #7321776 - 08/22/07 03:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Relevance to this thread? Do you understand how, when, and why to use a PM for personal issues?


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321788 - 08/22/07 03:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I am inclined to agree here. Overall we have not really changed at our core it seems.


Sure there are sparks of light and spiritual maturity here and there, but seemingly not enough to make any real impact.


"Twas ever thus" If you really want to see some light in this world you will have to be that light. I don't look to the world for answers anymore.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/22/07 03:41 PM)


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7321796 - 08/22/07 03:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

*sigh* Cynicism is just as limiting as blind optimism.  Why not look around & see the incredible variation of human expression?  There are so many shades besides black and white.  (Or, in the case of blind cynicism, black and darker black. :tongue:)


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321811 - 08/22/07 03:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Don't get me wrong dearest. I do see some beautiful things from humanity. I still suggest that overall we can acknowledge that the human race is for the most part fear driven and unconscious. It may take many many generations to see any real movement to a mostly love motivated and courageous humanity, if ever.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7321814 - 08/22/07 03:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Ice, you are closer than I am. Slap her around until she realizes that mankind has not progressed.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321820 - 08/22/07 03:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We only slap in love play.:shrug:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321821 - 08/22/07 03:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You're right, humanity sucks. I'm moving to a remote locale & will never contact other humans again.

Ta.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321830 - 08/22/07 03:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Did I say humanity sucks, oh great strawman builder? Or did I say humanity has remain basically unchanged since we left the savannah?

You already live in a remote locale and hippies and fluffy authors are not truly part of humanity.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321848 - 08/22/07 03:57 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

None of this changes the fact that your entire argument rests on your assertion that Enlightened Masters must enlighten others in order to prove their own enlightenment.

If I master a subject, does my mastery depend upon teaching it successfully to others? Does their failure to demonstrate mastery undermine my knowledge?

I will ask you again, since you failed to answer the first time: why is the internal state of others proof of the internal state of the Enlightened Master?


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321854 - 08/22/07 03:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Look out for Icelander's three strike rule.:whoa:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321858 - 08/22/07 04:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
You're right, humanity sucks.  I'm moving to a remote locale & will never contact other humans again.

Ta.




Except me and the boys. When do we leave?:inlove:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7321861 - 08/22/07 04:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, you all suck, too, and so do I.  I can't leave myself behind, so I'll have to tolerate my own humanity somehow.  :crazy:


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Icelander]
    #7321864 - 08/22/07 04:02 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Will I have to go to bed early and without dessert?


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321870 - 08/22/07 04:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I know people who have become more loving, compassionate, kind, wise and had there inner lives transformed and enriched by spiritual teachings.




By people, I am assuming you mean more than one. And if they in turn affected others, it would not take long to transform the planet, yet nothing has changed inwardly since the beginning of man.




true, but the point is our outwardly appearance and attachment to it has changed drastically. and this change has made us unaware of our internal process. with the help of masters it has been easier to become more aware of who we are, and has helped us to pick up the pace on our path to self-realization.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321873 - 08/22/07 04:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The late, great Swami will make all things clear:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4660857#4660857


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321878 - 08/22/07 04:05 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Nope, you all suck, too, and so do I.  I can't leave myself behind, so I'll have to tolerate my own humanity somehow.  :crazy:




I can honor your feelings here. You must follow your path with heart. Goodbye forever sweetheart. I will sell the boys at auction.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321880 - 08/22/07 04:05 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

just because our root has not changed does not mean we should give up trying to be more aware of it...


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321881 - 08/22/07 04:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Will I have to go to bed early and without dessert?




No, but you will prove yourself the lessor for not answering.:(


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321901 - 08/22/07 04:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If I master a subject, does my mastery depend upon teaching it successfully to others? Does their failure to demonstrate mastery undermine my knowledge?



If you dedicate your life to passing on such knowledge and no one 'gets it', then yes you are an abject failure and should hang your head in shame.

Quote:


I will ask you again, since you failed to answer the first time: why is the internal state of others proof of the internal state of the Enlightened Master?



See answer # 2. Not all enlightened masters become teachers.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321919 - 08/22/07 04:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I did not ask whether the measure of my teaching ability was reflected in the mastery of my students, I asked whether my mastery was linked to their mastery.

Perhaps you meant to discuss the existence of valid Gurus?


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7321956 - 08/22/07 04:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

If I master a subject, does my mastery depend upon teaching it successfully to others? Does their failure to demonstrate mastery undermine my knowledge?



If you dedicate your life to passing on such knowledge and no one 'gets it', then yes you are an abject failure and should hang your head in shame.




:crazy::confused::banghead::ohwell::shrug:

:blazed:


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7321980 - 08/22/07 04:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It is nigh impossible to debate with those who have a reading disorder.

Opening post: "I think it reasonable to assume that no Enlightened Masters have ever existed or they existed and were unable to transmit any useful knowledge.

Is that really unclear? You keep trying to get me to respond to something I never wrote.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7322007 - 08/22/07 04:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is nigh impossible to debate with those who have a reading disorder.




Fireworks_God, come here and stop these personalisms!  (or whatever the feck they are called... who really gives)

or do you just like to pick on me?  :eatadick:


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: onlynow]
    #7322016 - 08/22/07 04:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I received a 30 second ban from FWG.


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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7322021 - 08/22/07 04:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is nigh impossible to debate with those who have a reading disorder.




it is impossible to debate with someone who ignores (or perhaps runs away from) half of my most important posts.


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7322799 - 08/22/07 08:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I do not have a reading disorder.  Resorting to personalisms is the first sign of a lack of support for one's argument.

You clearly stated that any Enlightened Master who did not transmit his/her enlightenment to at least two others "sucked."  Also saying that they were "unable" to transmit knowledge assumes that it is possible to transmit enlightenment, and that the inability to do so was their failing. 

I keep trying to get you to respond to my question: What does the internal state of others have to do with the internal state of an Enlightened Master.  You have not answered me.  Your argument is based upon the claim that Enlightened Masters should be able to transmit their enlightened state to at least two others, or else they are not enlightened. 

Your hedge that not all Masters become teachers just doesn't cut it.  Do all Masters dedicate their life to transmitting enlightenment?  What of those who do not?  Is it even possible to teach someone else to reach enlightenment?

This is your last chance.  If you do not answer the question I wrote, and clarify your position that an Enlightened Master who does not transmit enlightenment to at least two others "sucks," I will have to invoke Icelander's Rule.


:rofl: :rofl2: :lol:

For the record, I don't believe that there have been or ever will be such people as "Enlightened Masters."  There have probably been a few humans who had a clue about the cosmic joke, most of the time, but the rest of the stories are mythology.  :grin:


Edited by Veritas (08/22/07 08:43 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7323277 - 08/22/07 10:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

There have probably been a few humans who had a clue about the cosmic joke,

The late R.A.W. for one.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: Veritas]
    #7323910 - 08/23/07 01:18 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I do not have a reading disorder. Resorting to personalisms is the first sign of a lack of support for one's argument.



Where did I state that YOU have a reading disorder? I made a factual generalized statement about the oft-times difficulty of debate.

Of course, if you are seeing things not written - well...

Quote:

You clearly stated that any Enlightened Master who did not transmit his/her enlightenment to at least two others "sucked."




EM: "I am so in touch with cosmic wisdom that I am unable to see the futility in trying to transmit such cosmic wisdom."

Perhaps you have a better choice of word than 'sucked'.


Also saying that they were "unable" to transmit knowledge assumes that it is possible to transmit enlightenment, and that the inability to do so was their failing.
Their inability to either do the possible or attempt the impossible certainly speaks of some sort of failing.

Quote:

Your argument is based upon the claim that Enlightened Masters should be able to transmit their enlightened state to at least two others, or else they are not enlightened.



Einstein and Newton and others transmitted their knowledge to masses of people which changed the world. If an enlightened master spend his entire life trying to awaken others and is unable, then there is a strong likelihood he was delusional about either his internal state or his abilities as a teacher.

Y
Quote:

our hedge that not all Masters become teachers just doesn't cut it.



It doesn't? Are there not amazing world class athletes or brilliant artisans who have no desire to teach or coach?

Quote:

Do all Masters dedicate their life to transmitting enlightenment?



Unknown.

Quote:

What of those who do not? Is it even possible to teach someone else to reach enlightenment?



Apparently not, but books, seminars schools, cults, etc. keep sprouting up to no positive affect.

Quote:

For the record, I don't believe that there have been or ever will be such people as "Enlightened Masters."



I see. You are just ball-busting rather than trying to have a serious discussion. How enlightened!


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Registered: 10/28/05
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Re: Spiritual Masters and the Law of Doubling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7324618 - 08/23/07 08:46 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I do not have a reading disorder. Resorting to personalisms is the first sign of a lack of support for one's argument.



Where did I state that YOU have a reading disorder? I made a factual generalized statement about the oft-times difficulty of debate.

Of course, if you are seeing things not written - well...





Of course you didn't state it. That would be against the rules, so you simply insinuated it.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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