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OfflineLuNaTiX
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What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling!
    #7315100 - 08/20/07 05:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.gizmag.com/go/7817/

Quote:


August 20, 2007 Exceeding the speed of light may not be impossible according to claims reported by New Scientist. The debate surrounds an experiment by Günter Nimtz and Alfons Stahlhofen of the University of Koblenz, Germany, in which photons were propelled faster than the speed of light in a process known as quantum tunnelling. But does this really defy the 186,000 miles per second (300,000 kps) speed limit arising from Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity? In the weird world of quantum mechanics, where very little makes sense, it seems that it’s down to a matter of interpretation.

The research by Nimtz and Stahlhofen involved sending microwaves through two glass prisms to investigate quantum tunnelling – a process in which quantum particles violate the laws of classical physics by traversing gaps that they should not be able to pass through. In observing this phenomena the researchers conclude that the photons travel much faster than the speed of light – so fast in fact that it couldn’t be measured. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling

The popular interpretation might lead to the conclusion that the ultimate cosmic speed limit has been broken, but as explained by Alan Boyle at Cosmic Log, it’s more a question of how these laws are conceived given that the weird behaviour of quantum particles tend to elicit loopholes in the Theory of Relativity. Part of this problem lies in the fact that light waves are massless and therefore don’t fit within the parameters of the 186,000 miles per second rule.

Like many aspects of quantum mechanics it just shouldn’t happen (take for example the ability of certain sub-atomic particles to react to interference with its quantum “partner” even when they are separated by large distances) but in a world full of “known unknows”, things aren’t about to get any simpler.

For further reading visit New Scientist or see Nimtz and Stahlhofen’s Research Paper entitled Macroscopic violation of special relativity.






This kinda stuff I like...


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #7315138 - 08/20/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's funny how science makes up rules and boundries, and then inevitably breaks them down

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OfflineThe_Ghost
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: chodamunky]
    #7315146 - 08/20/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

chodamunky said:
It's funny how science makes up rules and boundries, and then inevitably breaks them down



Thats the only way science can operate. Its a study of limitation. Eventually the limits expand.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #7315153 - 08/20/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

may i move this to the science and tech forum to get a good debate going?


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: The_Ghost]
    #7315155 - 08/20/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

thats the whole point of science... to define boundaries and then find exceptions to them to paint a better picture of reality


if something goes faster than the speed of light, will there be the equivalent to a sonic boom? What would that be? a huge flash of light? thats kinda cool


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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: automan]
    #7315161 - 08/20/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, sure, I'm sure it will be more useful there.


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #7315188 - 08/20/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

we just had this debate in the Science forum. You can move it there if you want, but the conversation will be different here

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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: The_Ghost]
    #7315510 - 08/20/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah but dealing with quantum physics, there are no boundaries because it's all about possibilities.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #7315545 - 08/20/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The quote states in fact that it does not break the limits of relativity.  Still, interesting stuff indeed  :thumbup:

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #7315552 - 08/20/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Help on the Way]
    #7321420 - 08/22/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Help on the Way said:
thats the whole point of science... to define boundaries and then find exceptions to them to paint a better picture of reality


if something goes faster than the speed of light, will there be the equivalent to a sonic boom? What would that be? a huge flash of light? thats kinda cool




in a vacuum it is not possible since the speed of light in a vacuum is the universal limit. On the other hand, in any medium with a refractive index higher than 1, stuff can move faster than light does in that medium and it produce some kind of "sonic boom" glow called Cerenkov radiation. It is observed in nuclear reactor in particular.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Newbie]
    #7322237 - 08/22/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

> there are no boundaries because it's all about possibilities.

Actually, it is more about probabilities than possibilities.

> As mentioned above, along the same lines...

Thanks, saved me the hassle of looking up the posts!  :smile:


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Seuss]
    #8176053 - 03/21/08 02:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

damn, fascinating, so the article says it may be possible, but they can't prove it or something, right? but they got the photon to move at about the speed of light at least, right? interesting, what is a photon?

i feel like i'm watching star trek with this shit...


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: imachavel]
    #8176229 - 03/21/08 02:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

A photon is a particle of light.  Photons always move at the speed of light, because they are light.  :smile:

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8176340 - 03/21/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
A photon is a particle of light.  Photons always move at the speed of light, because they are light.  :smile:




It depends on your definition.

If you mean the speed of light, c, or 386,000 miles per second, then you are wrong.  You can change the speed of a photon by making it travel through a medium.

But since photons are light, you would in fact change the speed of that "piece" of light.

But c is still the same.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8176433 - 03/21/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think this has already been mentioned in this thread... if not it is in the threads I linked to above.

The speed of light is always c. The reason there is a decrease in a medium is because of the interactions between the light and matter takes time. But in between these reactions the light is traveling at c. So the apparent speed (the net speed) seems to be less than c, because the time it takes during the interaction. (Kind of like how stop lights greatly slow down your apparent speed, even though you may always travel at 60mph)

Light always travels at c. It has too. A massless particle must travel at c, just as a mass particle must travel <c.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8176491 - 03/21/08 04:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I should read more.

:stoned:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8177046 - 03/21/08 06:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I like π.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8177484 - 03/21/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I sorry if I came off like a dick, didnt mean too.

Its normal to talk of speed of light decreasing in a medium. If you said that around a scientist they would know what you meant. I just like to make the distinction when somebody new asks, so they better understand the physics of light and light speed.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8177917 - 03/21/08 10:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Oh no, I wasn't taking any offense at all to what you said!

No need to apologize.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8178475 - 03/22/08 01:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

oh ok, yeah, i wouldn't figure you can accelerate light, i don't know if anything can travel faster than it. There's things we might not know about.. but who knows... maybe an atom is the smallest amount of energy possible, maybe not..

hard to say, huh?


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: imachavel]
    #8178551 - 03/22/08 01:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

One reason scientists dont think there is anything that can travel faster than light (or more specifically, communicate faster than light), comes from relativity. Relativity has been experimentally verified to be correct to a very high precision. If you work the logic of it out, you find that something traveling faster than the speed of light violates causality. What this means is, if something travels faster than light the effects of interactions happen before the causes. That doesn't make sense.

Say you push a button, shoot a laser and destroy someones eyesight from afar. If something could travel faster than light, then in its reference frame (from its perspective) the persons eye would be destroyed before you shoot the laser. This would not be an optical illusion of any sort, it would happen in that order - eye destroyed first, then laser is shot.

So there are basically three choices:
1) relativity is wrong (but its been experimentally verified to such high precision...)
2) effects can happen before causes (wow, that would be wierd. probably not likley)
3) nothing can travel faster than light (also wierd, but probably correct)

Sometimes, truth truly is stranger than fiction. This type of tripped out shit is what drew me to physics.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8178593 - 03/22/08 01:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I hate physics so much.

If I had had to take more than two semesters, I never would have graduated school.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8178682 - 03/22/08 02:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Wait... dont you have a geophysics degree?  And you only had to take two physics classes?

I dont understand how somebody could not find the implications of relativity fascinating.  Sure you may hate doing the math, but to hate learning about things like time dilation and how the universe operates in general seems strange...

If you are looking in a thread titled quantum tunneling, I think you might like physics a little.  :stoned:

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8178702 - 03/22/08 02:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Saying I hate it is probably an overstatement because yes, I enjoy learning the reasons for certain behaviors.

But I really despise math. I'm not good at it and it doesn't make sense to me.

And there is surprisingly little physics involved in geophysics.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8178901 - 03/22/08 06:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I still don't see how light traveling at c could take a year to travel a light year, but if it traveled at 1.000000000000001 X c it would get there before it left.


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OfflineAnnom
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8179159 - 03/22/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

And there is surprisingly little physics involved in geophysics.



I guess that depends on the field within geophysics. If you want to model dynamic behaviour of any process on earth, you will have to use differential equations.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #8179644 - 03/22/08 12:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I still don't see how light traveling at c could take a year to travel a light year, but if it traveled at 1.000000000000001 X c it would get there before it left.


The fact that I used a laser in my example is just coincidence. If you could travel faster than the speed of light, there would be some reference frame out there where any effect would happen before a cause. There would be one where a person would die from a bullet before the gun is shot.

The reason for all this craziness is the idea of 'simultaneity'. Things do not happen simultaneously in all reference frames. In fact simultaneous events are only simultaneous in certain reference frames. You might say that my watch and you watch are each at 00 seconds, even though we are thousands of miles apart. But in most other reference frames, they are not 00 seconds at the same time. Again, this would not be an illusion of any sort, they would really be non simultaneous events. You cannot state the order in which things happen without stating what reference frame you are in.

To really 'get it' and internalize this idea, you need to do some math of course. Relativity is easy math though, no calculus just algebra. Also maybe google space-time diagrams (or minkowski diagrams) to get a pictorial view of it.

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InvisibleOJK
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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8181751 - 03/22/08 10:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Say you push a button, shoot a laser and destroy someones eyesight from afar. If something could travel faster than light, then in its reference frame (from its perspective) the persons eye would be destroyed before you shoot the laser. This would not be an optical illusion of any sort, it would happen in that order - eye destroyed first, then laser is shot.




Excuse my ignorance, but I don't follow the intuition here. Why would it apply to a laser and not, say, a bullet fired from a gun? If a man next to me fires a bullet at a melon 100 yards away, and I move to the melon faster than the bullet travels, the melon does not appear to explode before the bullet arrives.

I accept that you're right, I just don't understand why/how.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What's faster then light? quantum tunnelling! [Re: OJK]
    #8183105 - 03/23/08 11:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/11/16 10:15 AM)

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