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Invisiblejohnm214
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Poll by Democrats.com finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying; somewhat conflicts w/ earlier poll
    #7294217 - 08/14/07 04:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Wiretapping All Dem Ind Rep
Approve 22% 11% 17% 42%
-strongly 10% 3% 8% 23%
-somewhat 12% 8% 9% 19%
Disapprove 73% 87% 80% 51%
-somewhat 12% 10% 14% 15%
-strongly 60% 77% 66% 36%

Didn't see if democrats.com claimed this was a scientific poll or not...

http://www.democrats.com/wiretap-poll-1


Edited by johnm214 (08/14/07 06:11 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: johnm214]
    #7294458 - 08/14/07 05:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Seems like the sticking point is whether the surveilance involves "americans suspected of terrorism", a difficult definition to tie-down. While I don't see why the Justice Dept. can't get regular warrants for these domestic matters, if they indeed have tangible evidence that the in-america portion of the conspiracy is going to committ terrorism, if the law were tightened to define exactly what terrorism means, I would feel alot more comfortable.

Nevertheless, I see the need, perhaps, for targeting americans with investigations that may yield evidence of plots, but lets define terrorism to mean something that cannot get confused with political dissidence, but actual harm to people and structures by foreign entities.

Quote:

Sixty-four percent (64%) of Americans believe the National Security Agency (NSA) should be allowed to intercept telephone conversations between terrorism suspects in other countries and people living in the United States. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that just 23% disagree.

Sixty-eight percent (68%) of Americans say they are following the NSA story somewhat or very closely.

Just 26% believe President Bush is the first to authorize a program like the one currently in the news. Forty-eight percent (48%) say he is not while 26% are not sure.


See: http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/12/28/163654/65


Edited by johnm214 (08/14/07 06:00 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: johnm214]
    #7294477 - 08/14/07 06:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That wasn't a poll by Democrats. It was a poll by Democrats.com. Look at the question:

Quote:

The question asked whether respondents approved or disapproved:

President Bush wants the power to wiretap the phone calls and emails of Americans without a search warrant from a judge.




Pay better attention.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7294505 - 08/14/07 06:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That wasn't a poll by Democrats. It was a poll by Democrats.com. Look at the question:

Quote:

The question asked whether respondents approved or disapproved:

President Bush wants the power to wiretap the phone calls and emails of Americans without a search warrant from a judge.




Pay better attention.




Yeah, I changed the post to reflect democrats.com, your right.

I think the question is on point. It isn't necessarily prescient to the question at hand re: terrorism investigations, however. I think my second post shows the difference (assuming you accept the polls as accurate) in the perception: domestic investigations should be done by the standard means, foreign terrorism should be investigated w/ president's inherent power to wiretap for foreign affairs investigations.

I don't think these posts were misleading, do you?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: johnm214]
    #7294535 - 08/14/07 06:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well the first one was a bit misleading because the newspapers and nutlogs have somehow managed to totally ruin the meaning of the word "Domestic" to somehow include international telephone calls. And when a bunch of nutlogs use the word it's a crapshoot to guess what they're referring to. Not really your fault.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7294559 - 08/14/07 06:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

agreed, but as you mentioned in the "devil's advocate" thread, even wiretappings on american soil are fine, so long as their directed at a foreign plot to commit crimes against this country (i.e. espionage involving "sleepers" sent in)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: johnm214]
    #7294588 - 08/14/07 06:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If both ends of the call are located in the US you should need a warrant to arrest somebody. If one end is outside the US and either number is tainted then it's fair game to get a retroactive warrant. Feh, it's a tempest in a teacup. The FISA program has been in place for decades and nobody could find a prosecution that was tossed due to improper application of the law or questioning it's Constitutionality. People here just don't like cops. For obvious reasons.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7294611 - 08/14/07 06:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If both ends of the call are located in the US you should need a warrant to arrest somebody. If one end is outside the US and either number is tainted then it's fair game to get a retroactive warrant. Feh, it's a tempest in a teacup. The FISA program has been in place for decades and nobody could find a prosecution that was tossed due to improper application of the law or questioning it's Constitutionality. People here just don't like cops. For obvious reasons.




Your analysis seems right, but its also the motivation of the investigation that determines the legality of the technique, the president has constitutional authority to conduct foreign relations, including spying, and so this actiity is reasonable per the 4th amendgment if its a bona-fide application of that authroity (again, sabotage, foreign terrorism).

I think the fact that fisa hasn't been shown to be vulnerable to constitutional challenges or investigations being quashed because they had to go outside what fisa allows, demonstrates that the law is sufficient to handle modern needs. The president, after all, derives authority from the constitution to do certain surveilances, and enacting statutes doesn't change this.


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OfflineStrandedVoyager
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: johnm214]
    #7294760 - 08/14/07 07:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I seriously do not understand how anyone can think domestic spying is a good idea, especially members of this website. This country is really becoming scary.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7295517 - 08/14/07 11:04 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, it is legal/constitutional, and it is an expedient way to investigate international spying/ sabotage. Why don't you explain why you don't like it?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Poll by Democrats finds Strong Opposition to Domestic Spying [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7297582 - 08/15/07 03:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

StrandedVoyager said:
I seriously do not understand how anyone can think domestic spying is a good idea, especially members of this website. This country is really becoming scary.




What do you mean by "domestic"? As someone who reads the NYTimes everyday I can no longer tell what is domestic and what is international.


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