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Deja Vu
    #7285957 -

Your entire life has already taken place. This exact moment is just a memory being re-evaluated. You live every day exactly the same as the last time. Its not a cycle of the same thing every year but a redundant cycle of reality. People say your life begins at the last memory you ever have as a child but I think it just continues on forever until the end of the universe and restarts from there. Deja vu is not as old as you think you are but, instead infinitely old. Its 1 trillion years old. the same memory at this same moment; never ending; forever.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7286022 -

this was an idea of nietzche, right?

I'd like to ask what the difference is between experiencing the exact same life 1,000 times and just experiencing it once.

If the lives are exactly the same, there can be no interaction between them. Any interaction would introduce new experience, thus rendering them incongruous.

Since there can be no interaction between this life and replica lives, replica lives are functionally, strictly an idea in this life. Deja vu then is an experience of patterns repeating in this life, or else a neurological fluke that tells you there are repeating patterns.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7286853 -

How could the same life be lived repeatedly, indefinitely? Just as the sequence once began, it shall end. With mathematical precision it might return to the exact state it did just before it began - matter and energy would assemble, the Big Bang occurs, matter and energy displace again throughout the universe as it already has as dictated by mathematics.

But how could we carry an enigmatic memory through lifetimes without altering the energy makeup of the system? Perhaps with each revolution, the makeup is altered only slightly and we just happen to receive bits and pieces, hints into the workings of the universe. Maybe change is occurring, but very slowly, so slowly we live a lifetime a million times before enough energy has been transposed in placement to such a degree that we become another being.

These preserves various theories, but includes one of my favorites - the universe will never be the same again. Though it may be remarkably similar, the tiny variations ensure a universe of change. Wishful thinking. I'm enjoying this life, but to be the only one I ever life would be depressing. I think it is, but at the same time I think the energy I hold during this life will be passed on elsewhere when I die. Eventually, if it ends up being largely partitioned to a similar but slightly different elbisivni, then so be it.


I am confounded by deja vu. I've been keeping a record of each experience since around the time I was 12 - no repeats of course, but they have been getting more intense. It is not unusual for me to have a one that goes multiple experiences deep - "I remember remembering having this deja vu." etc. Also experiencing deja vu's I strongly believe I've had before in this lifetime. Though admittedly, probably half of the experiences are based around events considered regular and repetitive, which makes the possibility of profoundness much more limited.

Such a peculiar feeling it is to have an out-of-body experience in which you go further out-of-body. Like looking down a tunnel of endlessly replicated occurrences.


Infinite Regression/Reduplication


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

Edited by elbisivni (08/12/07 07:39 AM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287263 -

mikebart101 said:
Your entire life has already taken place. This exact moment is just a memory being re-evaluated. You live every day exactly the same as the last time. Its not a cycle of the same thing every year but a redundant cycle of reality. People say your life begins at the last memory you ever have as a child but I think it just continues on forever until the end of the universe and restarts from there. Deja vu is not as old as you think you are but, instead infinitely old. Its 1 trillion years old. the same memory at this same moment; never ending; forever.


If it's already happened, and it will happen over and over again, why is recognizing it significant?

What you're basically saying is, "Outside of your perception are things you will never know and understand... oh yeah and they're exactly like this." Kind of a dull fantasy, sorry.

Only a trillion years? Come on, can't we at least repeat it infinitely? Wait, you did say infinite. So infinity = 1,000,000,000,000? Crazy. Yawn.

What event set off your magical consciousness perpetual-motion machine exactly a trillion years ago?


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/12/07 11:01 AM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Epigallo]
    #7287265 -

bradley said:
this was an idea of nietzche, right?


Maybe in one of his unpublished, more syphilitic moments.

(No, this is not Nietzsche.)


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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7287282 -

Yeah when I fall into my ego-splitting-insanity (that's how I call it)
I feel like I'm on a thought-wave, deferling, but never ending. Never coming to the shore. And I live in a déja-vu.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Justice_Fish]
    #7287289 -

Quote:
Yeah when I fall into my ego-splitting-insanity (that's how I call it)
I feel like I'm on a thought-wave, deferling, but never ending. Never coming to the shore. And I live in a déja-vu.


Have you been carried out to sea? Don't deferl in the ocean, people swim there.


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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287355 -

Your entire life has already taken place.

I doubt it. I own an iPod and they were just recently invented. I couldn't have owned one in a prior life. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7287406 -

I think he means that the specific time frame of your life is on an endless loop. You know, you're living the years 1980-2009 (sorry, two years to live) over and over and over. Not that it makes any more sense either way.


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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7287443 -

You mean I've been listening to Disco over and over again throughout eternity? No wonder some people shoot themselves in the head. :whoa:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7287603 -

I'm saying you live the same lives every cycle of the universe, and its been going on forever; not that when you die you end up in the life you had just lived. Instead, in a trillion years or so when the universe collapses and restarts you will be sitting here reading this again.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287614 -

You have no reason to think that the physical compression and expansion of the universe actually involves some kind of metaphysical cycle by which all events are replayed endlessly. It's human aesthetics enforcing itself on inhuman reality. What kind of huge human philosophical problem does imagining this situation actually solve? None. It's just a, "Hey man, wouldn't it be trippy if..." kind of statement.

I'm sure it's fun to mull over when you're tripping, but I can think of more productive and relevant topics of study without having to invent new ones.

"Heeey man, I wonder if you can leave messages for yourself, like in that episode of Star Trek."


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/12/07 01:39 PM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287631 -

Old hat.  I must have heard this one a billion times.

:nogame:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287654 -

Instead, in a trillion years or so when the universe collapses and restarts you will be sitting here reading this again.

The available evidence points to an expanding and accelerating universe, not a slowing down and eventually contracting one.

So much for your anthropocentric ideas. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Lion]
    #7287666 -

bug said:
Old hat.  I must have heard this one a billion times.

:nogame:



Yeah, these would be way more interesting if they put a new spin on them, or at least started combining them or something.

HEEEEEEEEY MAN did you hear that in 2012 we're all going to learn about fractals from the Olmecs, and they're going to teach us how to create pyramids and crop circles with lasers or crystals or the power of love or something? Or maybe we're learning about Olmecs from the fractals. I don't know, either way there is probably a Ouija board involved, according to my sister who is a Wiccan and pretty much knows her shit.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/12/07 01:55 PM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7287675 -

Diploid said:
Instead, in a trillion years or so when the universe collapses and restarts you will be sitting here reading this again.

The available evidence points to an expanding and accelerating universe, not a slowing down and eventually contracting one.

So much for your anthropocentric ideas. :shrug:



Here ya go... http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2007/07/a_cyclic_universe.php


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287684 -

Yes, that is one prominent theory, in which matter compresses and re-expands every so many billions or trillions of years. Cyclical big bang and all that.

That still has nothing to do with time being cyclical. That bit's pretty much just your mind bobbling along its merry little path by itself.

The fact that it occurs more than once, and can be known (or thought) to happen more than once) indicates that the "life span" of one cycle of the universe is not the entirety of theoretical time, that time is linear. Additionally, if deja vu is the "bleed-thru" between time cycles (which is still a load of tripe), then a material change has automatically been affected which distinguishes these cycles, thus they are not truly cyclical but linear.

Every thought you have has a material representation (assuming you believe in the fundamentals of brain chemistry), and has the potential to effect even greater material change upon the universe (through your actions). Thus... your deja-vu would even under this unlikely and somewhat silly system defeat the system's supposed rules.

See what I mean?


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/12/07 02:03 PM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7287762 -

Well, can we discuss ideas about what deja vu might be even though mikebarts' initial proposition has already been discredited?


How about the possibility that the human mind is so powerful that it can often border on precognition, or even creep along that border?  Perhaps somehow we subconsciously calculate spontaneous future events.  When the event actually occurs the calculation is fresh in our mind and gets called, seemingly becoming a memory..

I think it would be far fetched for this to apply in many of the deja vu situations I've had, involving people and places beyond my control and surveillance.


Quote:
The theory of the oscillating universe goes like this: What we once thought was The Big Bang was more likely A Big Bang. Measurements of background cosmic radiation suggest that our universe explodes, expands, then contracts to the point of exploding again. Hence, the oscillation.

In each explosion, all the dice are rolled. What we think of as the natural order of things is up for grabs in each cycle or oscillation; anything is possible. Each cycle from explosion to implosion is the life of a universe, not of the universe. Within a single universe, natural laws apply; across universes, they are reinvented.

theory recounted by physicist Stephen Hawking in his book, "A Brief History of Time"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SMG/is_n13_v13/ai_14357928


Quote:
Some cosmologists think that our universe has been cycling through an endless series of big bangs and big crunches. If so, it implies the universe is doomed to repeat the same thing over and over. A new study, however, suggests that with each big bang, the universe mostly forgets its past and starts anew.

Quote:
A theory known as loop quantum gravity (LQG) attempts to quantise gravity by suggesting that space-time is not as continuous as it seems. Instead, space-time is made of tiny interconnected loops, each only 10(power -35) metres in diameter, that form a smooth fabric much like a shirt's fabric is smooth...
http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19025484.100-a-view-of-the-universe-before-the-big-bang.html


...
Bojowald developed a simple LQG model
...

The model showed that most, but not all, of the information about what came before the big bang gets irretrievably lost through the big bang transition. And in a perpetual cycle of big bangs and crunches, this information loss means no two universes are ever the same. Bojowald calls this "cosmic forgetfulness".

Cosmologist Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University says that Bojowald's model is right in principle. "It's important to lose some information, but not everything," he says.

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12178-universe-mostly-forgets-its-past-during-cosmic-rebirth.html


You can't deny speculation in a forum like this and you can't deny experiences of deja vu some degree of importance or interest.  And if you haven't read the above quotations, please take a moment to do so now :smirk:


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

Edited by elbisivni (08/12/07 02:48 PM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7287765 -

Here ya go...

It's in the nature of science to present and test new theories. That doesn't make them true. Most cosmologists currently believe the universe is expanding and accelerating. It's a mystery why and doesn't make intuitive sense, but that's what the evidence shows.

There will always be a minority of scientists who disagree with the majority. That's a good thing, but it doesn't mean they're right.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7287811 -

I don't see why the big crunch/bang combination actually is the centerpiece of this argument in the first place, though.

You'd might as well make it arbitrary event, like 6:00am.

Rise and shine, campers, and don't forget your booties 'cause it's cooooold out there today!


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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7287860 -

Diploid said:
Your entire life has already taken place.

I doubt it. I own an iPod and they were just recently invented. I couldn't have owned one in a prior life. :shrug:


That's assuming that reincarnation works in a chronological fashion.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7287875 -

Or maybe it doesn't work at all.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7287878 -

Instead of some other arbitrary made-up fantasy fashion.

How presumptive of you, Diploid.


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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7288065 -

Diploid said:
Or maybe it doesn't work at all.


figgusfiddus said:
Instead of some other arbitrary made-up fantasy fashion.

How presumptive of you, Diploid.


Real good. You guys discuss it as if it's real, then I discuss it as if it's real, then you cock your chin and pat yourself on the back. Can you say "straw-man"?


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7288264 -

I'm really glad this thread has gone in such a productive direction.  This is why I'm posting less and less around here :frown:

I have some close acquaintances that live in a world of literalism and technicalities.  It's often very hard to talk to them, because as I attempt to convey an idea to them, they foul up, stall and redirect the conversation by focusing on trivial technicalities and by resorting to sarcastic wit in a blatant refusal to focus on the broader idea.

I believe technicalities are necessary to consider in intellectual conversation, but not until a general idea and line of reasoning has been established and at least moderately agreed upon by those involved.  There's no progression when the only focus is on technicalities.

I was excited to see this thread, and was prepared to fully initiate myself in intellectual philosophical discussion on the topic.  These posts are beginning to say more and more "You're wrong, I'm right", "You're dumb, I'm clever", "Wrong, wrong, wrong, just give up"  but with little or no presence of tact.

I've been finding far more interesting philosophical discussion in the other Shroomery forums, but this is the philosophy forum right here, what kind of sense does this make?  We're too interested in being gatekeepers, keeping unpopular thought out while we crystallize our own established beliefs and/or attempt to convert others to our lines of reasoning.  Knowing more than others, being more 'pure' than others..

Now, one of two things happens.  1) My post gets ignored or 2) somebody finds a logical error or a semantical double-meaning, someone will debase my words, come up with a short witty comment that cuts down my idea..and then we can take all of the purpose and productivity out of something else in no time flat..

Sorry for ranting and going off topic.  Would anyone like to discuss deja vu?


Wikipedia has some very interesting information regarding deja vu, and similar topics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9j%C3%A0_vu

Deja vu literally translates to "already seen" whereas deja vecu ("already lived") definately describes my experiences more accurately.  There is also deja senti ("already felt") and deja visite ("already visited").  Deja vu can also be referred to as paramnesia, or parallel memory.  Enough language class.

There are a few explanations to paramnesia that I've never heard of and that are as interesting, but not quite as 'far-out' as my explanations up until this point.

It has become associated with schizophrenia, anxiety and especially temporal lobe epilepsly.  Use of recreational drugs also supposedly increases the chance of experiencing paramnesia.

Paramnesia has been found to be triggered by a combination of amantadine and phenylpropanolamine.  (The latter has been taken off the market as it has been shown to increase the chance of hemorrhagic stroke in women users.  It is also used in methampetamine production, so looking for it isn't smart.  I was looking forward to inducing some paramnesia..drats.)

Another theory is that a timing error in neuron firing causes the stimulus to be instantly experienced a second time.  A similar theory suggests one eye may detect a stimulus before the other, and they are both comprehended in rapid succession.

Then of course we are back to theories involving ESP, precognition, dreams, out of body experiences and reincarnation.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: elbisivni]
    #7288413 -

Quote:
Another theory is that a timing error in neuron firing causes the stimulus to be instantly experienced a second time. A similar theory suggests one eye may detect a stimulus before the other, and they are both comprehended in rapid succession.

It's interesting to think about one eye perceiving something before the other. In meditation my mind used to get hung up on how independent the eyes are from each other. It's hard to make them continue to look straight down at the same angle for example.

I've never experienced deja vu that I know of, but it really speaks to the mechanistic nature of the physical brain that a little glitch in the gears could trigger a deep sense of having seen or experienced something twice.

(Damn fine post, BTW!)


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Lion]
    #7288708 -

thanks

In meditation my mind used to get hung up on how independent the eyes are from each other. It's hard to make them continue to look straight down at the same angle for example.

sounds like reptilian ocular syndrome to me :lol:.  I think I've only ever experienced that sort of thing while on dxm, but I had no control over where each eye was focused.


I've never experienced deja vu that I know of, but it really speaks to the mechanistic nature of the physical brain that a little glitch in the gears could trigger a deep sense of having seen or experienced something twice.

It is an interesting idea, if it were proven I would be somewhat disappointed as I would be forced to abandon my more mystical interpretations of the phenomena.  I just gathered that info today and am already significantly inclined to accept the possibility of it being true.


I'd question the validity of attributing metaphysical properties to the occurrence if it didn't deal directly with our mind to such an extent.  After all, we don't really know why we yawn yet we don't assign much importance to it (except for maybe some people long ago who would cover their mouths so evil spirits wouldn't jump in).


Check this out (2nd paragraph especially)..
Quote:
Until recently, much of what was known to science about déjà vu came from a single extraordinary study conducted in the 1940s by Morton Leeds, an undergraduate at the College of the City of New York. Leeds had unusually frequent bouts of déjà vu and decided to keep a detailed diary of his experiences. He logged the time, circumstances, duration, and intensity of each spell. For example, at 12:25 p.m. on January 31, 1942, he wrote: “Awake, active. Extremely intense. Stood still for a moment in the shop. Then the feeling grew and grew. One of the most complete I have ever had. As the awareness grew, the feeling of being able to predict the next scene also came. It was so strong it almost nauseated me.” Over the course of 12 months, Leeds chronicled 144 episodes—one almost every two days.

When Leeds analyzed his records, he found that his déjà vu usually occurred in mundane settings. He also discovered that it was more likely to occur during periods of stress and fatigue and that it tended to occur late in the day and late in the week. Other surveys have since shown that a number of factors influence the frequency of déjà vu. The more educated, well traveled, wealthy, and liberal a person is, the more likely he or she is to experience déjà vu. As people grow older, the frequency of déjà vu trails off dramatically. The average twentysomething experiences it about three times a year; middle-aged people rarely experience it more than once a decade.


http://discovermagazine.com/2005/sep/psychology-of-deja-vu/

Also, experience increases for those who can recall dreams well, though I read elsewhere that it increases with age instead of decreasing.

So I checked my records.  An average of 6 recorded per year.  What is most interesting is that damn near every single one indeed took place in a mundane setting while performing systematic operations (inducing stress and fatigue).  The numbers also lean towards the end of the week, but time of day definately did not hold true in comparison to his findings.

Well..I learned an awful lot regarding this topic today :lol:


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: elbisivni]
    #7288848 -

elbisivni you are so right. I hate people who think that they are the only ones who use psychedelics properly and that everyone else is just a fucking poser that listens to tool and watches Fear and loathing every day. I mean WTF? I'm definitely not a skateboarder with long hair who wears Vans and girls XS jeans. I'm just here to share a thought and see what kind of input I get. When you disagree with someone its takes a bigger man to say nothing about it and just ignore. Its the pricks who try and shoot you down for the glory that isn't there;an asshole is an asshole. I can not stand people who think they know more about who you are than you. Are you trying to be Fireworks God's protegee or what? If you have nothing productive to say than just let it go.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7288958 -

mikebart101 said:
I'm saying you live the same lives every cycle of the universe, and its been going on forever; not that when you die you end up in the life you had just lived. Instead, in a trillion years or so when the universe collapses and restarts you will be sitting here reading this again.


so here is the conclusion

what created this idea of yours? i'd like to hear the beginning of the story too

it doesn't really seem very plausible why would a universe be created and destroyed, given that time is IRRELEVANT and meaningless

i mean, it is the most meaningless thing, it is just human beings taking marks

and when you liberate yourself from culture suddenly there is no 2008 there is perhaps 142 and it's just the same time in universal standard time its all an illusion, completely arbitrary with no objective point

so when we say, the universe will do this, well that's fine, but being born does not have to be subject to time

being born next time you could be on earth in 1442 and being born after that you could be on earth in 3042 and being born after that you could be a caveman and when you are on different plants the times are all vastly relative to the "universe" in the first place too
so i think within the timeframe of OUR humans *estimate* of the life of the universe (what the fuck is that? it's just consciousness isn't it? giant = tiny) there is INFINITE TIME, time never ending, infinite creation, infinite planets, infinite moments of liberation and unity with source energy
infinite amassing of intelligence

infinite freedom and movie scripting

but why is this world a movie? that kind of irks me. i'd rather we get to the part where bliss is ruling again...... i don't think actually its a very good idea to create negativity so positivity can be better appreciated really, honestly

hmrrmrmrmrmrrm maybe it's all Jesus and Satan and a giant battle of angles hrmrmrmrmr maybe its.....

who knows..... why did that negative creativity get wedged into iteration? why did it take control of earth? that is the question, and how is it defeated, that is the question.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7290396 -

jonathanseagull said:
Diploid said:
Or maybe it doesn't work at all.


figgusfiddus said:
Instead of some other arbitrary made-up fantasy fashion.

How presumptive of you, Diploid.


Real good. You guys discuss it as if it's real, then I discuss it as if it's real, then you cock your chin and pat yourself on the back. Can you say "straw-man"?


That's not a straw-man fallacy at all. That was us discussing the matter hypothetically in order to disprove it further (not that it was really necessary, but there are only so many good threads, and we occasionally have to refute the posters of the silly ones to keep from getting bored).

A straw man fallacy is an attempt to negate something by association by pretending it's something else, the "misrepresentation of an opponent's position". E.g.:

A: "There is no God because (argument)."

B: "I am very disappointed that you believe it's okay to have scat and pedo sex with Satan."

It's not:

"This is false, but let's discuss it as though it were true for a moment."

Understand?


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/13/07 08:28 AM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7290406 -

Quote:
I'm really glad this thread has gone in such a productive direction. This is why I'm posting less and less around here :frown:


Aww, poor baby. MRP is open for business. Read the forum descriptions. This is a forum dedicated to discussion and welcoming rational dissent. I think we have been all kinds of rational in this thread.

If you expect an internet forum discussion of anything to be "productive", you're in for a surprise. If you expect an internet forum discussion of why deja vu is actually all about cyclical reincarnation to be "productive", I am suspicious of your sanity.

Quote:
I have some close acquaintances that live in a world of literalism and technicalities. It's often very hard to talk to them, because as I attempt to convey an idea to them, they foul up, stall and redirect the conversation by focusing on trivial technicalities and by resorting to sarcastic wit in a blatant refusal to focus on the broader idea.


I scarcely think you can call our questioning of an incredibly presumptive argument to be based on technicalities. The original post suggests that deja vu is the result of the fact that the universe somehow recreates itself every so often (presumably according to the cyclical Big Crunch variant of the Big Bang theory).

This was carefully analyzed. It assumes:

A) That the universe undergoes some sort of cyclical event every so often. This is actually an established scientific theory, as described above.

B) That all eternity actually repeats itself during this phase. This is completely assumptive, as we indicated.

C) That humans somehow have the power to transcend these separate universes occasionally, by accident, through deja vu. (Because we're special, I guess.)


Again, note that this is the philosophy and spirituality forum, in which we are allowed and even expected to analyze such suggestions as to the nature of the universe.

The consensus of those who follow what you blindly call "literalism" and "technicalities" has so far been that the notion is not only baseless and predictably anthropocentric (suggesting the incredible cosmic importance of mankind when in fact the universe is unimaginably vast).

Rather than come up with a reasonable refutation for these arguments, or even what would appear to be a comprehension of them, all I've seen is bellyaching and a lot of "Why won't anyone just believe?"

Believing is great. It makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Why do you think people join churches? Being "open-minded" enough to accept any delusion that floats through your head is no more liberating than accepting someone else's delusions wholesale. Either way you're living in a fantasy.

There's nothing wrong with creating your own universe, but why, then, are you seeking other people to verify it?

Again, I think this thread (forum, species) suffers from a tendency to think from the gut, and an anti-intellectual fear of reason. Reason's scary. It breaks up comfy delusions.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/13/07 08:38 AM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7291793 -

You assume far too much in your response.

When I read mikebarts' initial post I read it as a means to the beginning of a conversation, not at all as a concrete belief. Thus, my first post consisted of philosophizing out on a limb in an attempt to establish grounds for discussion. By my second post it became clear that his initial proposition had been discredited - I saw no point in continuing to further discredit it so I instead offered two conflicting views on the nature of our universe, as it seemed relevant to discussion at the time.

Then, immediately after my short rant I offered various scientific explanations of the phenomena in an attempt to get things back on track. These explanations I found to be very interesting as they brought the phenomena directly into a scientific and realistically researchable realm.

As I stated in my last post, I am always somewhat saddened when abandoning initial beliefs one would regard as mystical. I also should have made it clear that I was not hesitant to do so in light of new information and fresh deduction (I have not thought on this subject in a while). In the quotation of that post I found extremely interesting information in that statistics had been recorded and results calculated. When you can do this with anything, that thing becomes much more attached to solid ground does it not?


So if you go back you'll see I never literally or technically agreed with mikebart, I did not see a reason to agree or disagree but to expound.

The reason I seek productivity in discussion on a forum is because I expect the individuals involved to be initiated in the subject matter. If I wanted to share in ego-lifting debauchery and amusement at the expense of others I'd go to the pub down the street. Once you're finished with junior-high school it's time to put away lunch-table status affiliations and discontinue competing over the hallways for the status of alpha dog.

The reason I gave the rundown of my previous posts above is because I suspect you have not read them. You reply to me only in regards to an off-topic rant in a way that attempts to permit meaning only within your conveniently constructed confines. Simultaneously, you inappropriately attempt to associate me with ideas and viewpoints for which I never argued.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: elbisivni]
    #7292214 -

elbisivni said:

Infinite Regression/Reduplication


If this perspective was turned from the straight-on-view, to a side-view, it would be a good description of a stutteruttering moment while amidst a salvia experience....  :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7293318 -

Quote:
So if you go back you'll see I never literally or technically agreed with mikebart, I did not see a reason to agree or disagree but to expound.


I don't care if you agreed or disagreed with him. That's not the point of any of my comments. Why are you so focused on that?

He made a suggestion as to the fundamental nature of the universe. It was a silly suggestion, in my mind, and a ham-fisted attempt to "expand" our paradigms, yadda yadda. Frankly, this kind of crap is posted every day of the week here: "Hey guys, what if our armpits are actually a mystical vortex through which we can understand the Divine Intelligence?" "Hey guys, what if there's like, some kind of crazy time travel machine... or something?" Stoner philosophy. Inarticulate, pointless, uninteresting stoner philosophy. But if it's a proposed truth regarding the nature of the universe, we can't truly discount it until we've considered and dispatched it systematically. So I did.

And I put it to rest, for whatever that's worth. Logically and philosophically. I am not embarrassed that I incorporated humor, since I tend to do that to keep myself and others amused, especially in unusually pointless threads, such as those about how deja vu is a psychic link to other selves who have already experienced the very same reality throughout all time due to the cyclical nature of the universe (*inhale*).

I have read your posts, and I have not associated you with any viewpoints whatsoever. I haven't given you more than two or three thoughts this whole time, and all of my responses to your post above were made without any assumption as to anything--honestly, I don't see why you think I should care what you believe. I simply responded to what you said. Though I'm not sure why I bothered, come to think of it. The only result has been my reading more self-important jibberish, and then my writing in response to your self-important jibberish, etc., when all I was ever interested in was the original topic and any possible intelligent arguments surrounding it. This isn't about you; it's about ideas. That's what we're here to exchange.

So, that's all you get. Enjoy.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/14/07 08:08 AM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7294679 -

figgusfiddus said:
"Hey guys, what if our armpits are actually a mystical vortex through which we can understand the Divine Intelligence?"


You walk a fine line with that body locations....
Some people truly have pits from hell....    :ohwell:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7294954 -

I keep my armpits mystical with Degree!  :smile:



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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Veritas]
    #7294995 -

:lol:


I think Opera may use "The Secret"....    :tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7295366 -

Moderator edit: This post has been removed as it has absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion of ideas outlined in this thread, and focuses instead on the personal nature of others who are posting in this thread, which does not lie in accordance with the rules and guidelines, purpose and intention of this forum. Any questions/concerns regarding this are welcome to be directed to myself through private messages.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

Edited by fireworks_god (08/16/07 07:54 PM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7296169 -

I totally feel like I have written something significant on this before.
but that may just be deja vu
both deja vu and synchronicity relate to associative mind processing things with a shifted timebase.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3013105#3013105
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3585674#3585674
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4729977#4729977
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3139427#3139427
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2707647#2707647
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7209180#7209180
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6295888#6295888
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6436116#6436116
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3049908#3049908
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3363170#3363170
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3422475#3422475

lots more.....
shroomery has a great search engine


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7300687 -

I think the fact that we sometimes have Deja Vu experiences, but never Deja Deja Vu or Deja Deja Deja Vu etc experiences, indicates that Deja Vu is a pattern-matching/synchronism-related phenomenon, rather than something that has to do with time being cyclic.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7300738 -

Rhizoid said:
I think the fact that we sometimes have Deja Vu experiences, but never Deja Deja Vu or Deja Deja Deja Vu etc experiences, indicates that Deja Vu is a pattern-matching/synchronism-related phenomenon, rather than something that has to do with time being cyclic.


I've had experiences where my memory of the occurrence is like looking down a tunnel of repeating images. That was what 'the card' image in my first post (third post in the thread) was all about. Not an infinite tunnel though, only 3 or 4 levels of experience deep. This is still peculiar to me considering the other theories explaining deja vu that I described more recently.

In regards to this kind of experience, it seems unlikely that the separate eye stimuli theory is valid. The neuron misfiring theory I can still see as a possibility, but it'd probably require an excessive amount of misfiring..which is also a possibility [heh].


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: elbisivni]
    #7301316 -

One thing I have always wondered about Deja Vu, is if anyone has ever had a group experience where more than one person, in the same group, at the same moment, have had a Deja Vu experience about the same thing.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7301326 -

I'm sure some people will claim this, just like dozens of women have claimed to be Cleopatra's reincarnation, and dozens more all have claimed to be Marylin Monroe's reincarnation.

When someone wants something to be true, they often fool themselves into believing it IS true.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7301482 -

Of course that's bullshit. I was Cleopatra Monroe in my last life. :sexysmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Icelander]
    #7301606 -

Wow, you look EXACTLY the way I've always pictured you. Amazing! :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7301682 -

Hey sucka, that's my line.:mad2:

You just can't forget a slight.:nono:

:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (08/16/07 04:50 PM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Icelander]
    #7301737 -

What goes around comes around. :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7301779 -

mikebart101 said:
listen here figgusfiddus, let me here an original idea or thread. I don't want to here your shit anymore if you don't even have the imagination to come up with an idea and have it smashed to hell.

All I ever here is your bitching about how stupid and 'stoner-like' everyone else's ideas are; let me here one of yours. Please link me to a philosophical post you have created in the past and let us tear it apart.

Fill in the blank with a link.....______________________________.


Actually it's usually OC bitching about it, I think, I just join in and parrot a little before the dust settles down.

But I think the best answer to your question is "I don't start a new thread if I don't have anything interesting to say." If everyone followed the same rule, poor li'l me, the skeptical asshole, would be out of a job.

And if you really want to read my posts, I'll tell you what we tell people on the cult board: "Use the freakin' search button."


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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7301821 -

mikebart101, if you don't want to hear people debate your ideas, then this is not the forum for you. If you keep up the personalisms, I will ban you from this forum, then you can enjoy MRP where no one will debate you.

Here is a link to the forum rules. Please read them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7302303 -

I don't mind debating but that requires the opposition to present his own idea in order to counter mine. Debating is not the word to use when someone comes around telling everybody they're wrong.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7313782 -

Actually I think a disagreement is pretty much mandatory in order for a debate to occur. "You're wrong" means "I disagree". People who have no faith in themselves or their ideas tend to curl up and cry when someone doesn't coddle them into a conversation as carefully as possible. Perhaps, if you truly believe the things you say, you should have more faith in them.

And if you can't have more faith in them, maybe you should work on some new ones!

You started this thread by suggesting that something may be true. I have indicated every way in which it could not, or most likely would not, be true. Your response was to break down and complain, and I think that is the detriment to this conversation. From everything you're saying (stop me if you think you've heard this one before, folks), I think you would have more fun on the MRP board, where people do seem to think you can have a debate without ever disagreeing about anything.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/20/07 10:23 AM)

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7314788 -

Actually I am not breaking down. I just want to know what your ideas are. Disagreeing is not an idea in itself.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7314794 -

Sure it is. If you say you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I say you're nuts, I don't have to present a more-plausible alternative idea in order to disagree with you.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: Diploid]
    #7314797 -

How is that? How do I know you are not disagreeing with me merely to disagree and that my idea is in fact false if no evidence is presented?


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7314812 -

He specifically pointed out flaws in your assertion, and explained why there is no evidence for your claims. That IS debating.

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Re: Deja Vu [Re: mikebart101]
    #7319682 -

Quote:
mikebart101 said:How do I know you are not disagreeing with me merely to disagree...


Why should you care? Respond to the points, don't dick around guessing the motivations of the speaker. If your idea is worthwhile, it should stand up to the assault of frivolous arguments even better than legitimate ones.

Quote:
and that my idea is in fact false if no evidence is presented?


As Veritas said, I gave nothing but reasons the idea in your original post is improbable, predictable, and otherwise recockulous.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (08/21/07 09:38 PM)

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