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Offlineimachavel
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what is the genetic rate of increase?
    #7279704 - 08/09/07 10:54 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

what is the genetic rate of increase if... you start with crappy marijuana seeds, and try to turn it into a nice plant like juicy fruit, assuming you have the correct growing conditions, and you wait until it fully buds, cut off a piece of the plant, and then wait until it regrows, assuming it grew better than last time, how long would that process take?

5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? 500 years? I assume that marijuana, being a weed, is naturally inclined to grow shitty, since it's established dna is made for sidewalk growth, or backyard grass takeover growth, or whatever it can manage. I realize weeds don't necessarily grow like other plants, whereas another plant supports itself, and gets great genetics, that last for 1000s of years. Otherwise a weed would ONLY HAVE good genetics. Anyway, I assume that those same weeds growing in optimal conditions develop genetics made for prime growth, but less for travel, and those are the lesser seen, bigger and better weeds. Now maybe marijuana is a versatile plant, that has both strains in it's genetic ability. How quickly does it mutate in optimal conditions? And also, they have really good female cloned strains, has anyone developed a strain yet, that produces great buds even while seeding? That would be optimal, was g-13 like that? or does the genetic make-up of the plant prevent that from happening? I take it a weed, being a plant constantly mutating to fit it's environment, is easily manipulated, but manipulating a plant that's 1000 years old from it's original weed characteristics isn't going to happen, a weed may be turned into the most genetically prime weed on the plant, but it's still going to be a weed, right?

also, vines are weeds, does anyone know anything about vines? Do they improve with cloning as well?
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OfflineCoaster
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7279720 - 08/09/07 10:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

evolution is slow
like 1000 years


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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Coaster]
    #7279753 - 08/09/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah. You can't just expect the weed to start growing more THC, even if you somehow sped up evolution. There's as much chance it would stop growing THC all-together since being grown by you there's no need for it as a defense mechanism.


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Offlinelipan
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Coaster]
    #7279758 - 08/09/07 11:07 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

if you want to develop your own strain, its a matter of cross pollenazation then growing the seeds, figure out which plants display positive traits, then cross pollenate then etc etc.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: lipan]
    #7280018 - 08/10/07 12:18 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

i don't know... does anyone here have experience with cloning female regs and turning it into a more potent strain? let me know
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7280067 - 08/10/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

that seems strange that it would take hundreds of years, i thought decades or close to hundreds of years. Well how do these growers take strains and turn them into world class winners, assuming most of them start with good quality genetics, haven't any of them turned crappy pot into world class winning strains?

I thought the motto was "the plant wants to be better, it wants to increase it's genetic capabilities." anyway, i could be wrong. None the less, it seems i could at least get a regs plant to produce high amounts of it's own crappy quality thc at high crystalized rates by removing the male, watering, fertilizing, letting it grow in the sun, removing the piece that works the best, maybe the top foot of the plant after i removed the buds, maybe the bottom branch, whatever, and eventually after ten years i'd have low grade chronic or some crap. I don't know, what if i super fed it fertilizer, took the leaf with the most crystals, and tried to grow that into a plant? it wouldn't get better? anyway, hit me up.

you can't grow a 2 foot brown mango from a 1 foot green mango tree, but can you grow a 2 foot green mango from a 1 foot green mango tree, right?

also, do people forget the rate that nature changes? you know a mango tree grows slowly, over decades, from a tiny plant into a large tree, i see mutation in nature all the time? has there been no scientific studies on how to pinpoint these occurences and multiply on them?
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlinelipan
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7280138 - 08/10/07 01:04 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

cross polinization


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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7280142 - 08/10/07 01:06 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Evolution isn't as simple as organisms "getting better"... it's a clash of a) completely random mutations in DNA (which can be beneficial or harmful to the organism's actual survival) and b) the environment it exists in. Basically, organisms not well suited to survival in their environment will be killed, while those with helpful mutations (for example, THC production for self-defense) will survive better, multiply with each other, and become standardized.

Cloning a plant will get you nothing but an exact copy (at least in terms of its capacity for growth, not necessarily how it actually grows depending on the environment) of the original. If anything, isolating a strain for a very long period of time will cause genetic defects to begin cropping up as there is no variation in the genes and no flexibility in the face of new mutations.

You grow good bud by using the right growing techniques (an art all itself, from what I understand) on seeds that yield lots of THC. If you want to make new strains, you have to experiment with interbreeding existing strains - which won't always give you what you want. It's a complicated process.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (08/10/07 01:09 AM)

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7280185 - 08/10/07 01:28 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

but it's random, right? like, one year it could double it's thc, the next it could lose half it's leaves? but it implies to try harder, correct? anyway...

it's worked both ways for people, right?
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7280200 - 08/10/07 01:33 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

It doesn't work that fast. A strand of DNA has billions of genes. A few of those billions change randomly with every generation. Thus it takes a really, really long time (hard to accurately calculate) for noticeable genetic changes to start taking place. We're talking hundreds of years at the very least, but probably hundreds of thousands. And it probably wouldn't change THC levels much because there's nothing in the environment forcing offspring to grow more (or less) of it.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (08/10/07 01:37 AM)

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7280226 - 08/10/07 01:47 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

man, are you serious? you know YOUR genes change in your life, right? i mean, you get your parents genes, and then you develop your own traits as you grow and change, of course they're still based on human genetics and everything, and your parents genetics, but i'm sure if your parents didn't exercise, and you exercise every day of your life, your kids are going to have inherited your exercise genetics to an extent, especially if you developed them well. Anyway, damn, hundreds of years maybe, but i thought thc was readily available to mutate, i thought pot mutated constantly, i guess not, but anyway, i'd like to try cloning. you don't think if i cut off the best branch of the tree, and replant it, it'll get a little better each time, you don't think i'd see chronic in my life? i don't know, anyway, i'm just wondering. I've seen plants that can get better immediately, if you keep regrowing it with good growing, they increase a little every time you replant it, i thought pot was one of those same plants, but no? anyway, let me know
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7280229 - 08/10/07 01:51 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

That's not how genetic mutation works. Your genes are set in stone the moment you are conceived, the second the sperm joins the egg. They do not change. Mutations happen during meiosis when the sperm/egg cells are created, each containing half of the parent's DNA, with some random alterations. What you give to your children is exactly the same genetic material you received from your parents in a slightly different package and with some random errors in the copy (mutations). Nothing you do in your life changes it in the slightest.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (08/10/07 01:53 AM)

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7280256 - 08/10/07 02:16 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

man, your serious? i can't believe that for a minute. they've proved that? fuck. I thought if you exercised, your kids pick up those genetic traits. How do genes change if they never mutate? i thought the better genes takeover. That's crazy to me, man. yeah, i guess. Do they have concrete evidence on that? or is it, like, just repeated information found in most cases, or in the general case. DUde, i don't know.

i mean all that being said and done and proven in science, do the know the exact parameters of this crap? i don't know.... DAMN!

it's like, a person can only play music if they're born with certain traits? that sucks, i thought a persons brain was somewhat blank and developed certain traits as it grows or whatever? i thought if you teach a kid math at 5, it's not necessarily going to grow into their brain to become a math genius, but when they grow up, they're going to have the ability to do twice as much math as someone in their family who wasn't tought math at 5 or whatever.
peace


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7281130 - 08/10/07 11:30 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

A person's brain, personality, and behavior are influenced partially by their genes and partially from their upbringing and environment... twins who grow up in different cities with different families turn into very different people. They're still identical genetically, probably look about the same, and maybe have some similar tendencies and affinities, but they're going to have completely different personalities.

That's how genetics work... it's not a matter of something "trying to get better," or organisms reacting directly to their environment and "changing their genes" to suit it. The genetic end of it is completely random, it has no will or purpose what-so-ever (other than to survive, but this is simply because genetic combinations without that chance for survival have not propagated). We see the species that are so well-adapted to their environment because their relatives that are less-adapted for survival in those environments have been dying off for hundreds of millions of years.

This is why so many people hate the idea of evolution... it's not simple, you can't watch it happening, it's not an easy matter of "growth." It's an almost incomprehensibly massive process, a clash of pure randomness and the environment that yields shocking results - over an incredibly long time.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (08/10/07 11:42 AM)

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7281185 - 08/10/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Considering it a weed is a mistake. It's a crop that has been bred for generations for cloth, so long and stalky cannabis has been what farmers grow it for. But through more generations of work, stronger varieties. Here's an example

Quote:


Skunk # 1 is a classic strain , originally bred in Holland, it's the first sinsemilla marijuana variety. Skunk #1 was also the first stabilized hybrid that was developed for indoor cultivation. It dates back to the 1970s California Bay area. Skunk #1 has a parentage of Afghani, Mexican gold and Colombian gold. Originally brought to Europe in the early 1980s, Skunk #1 plays a heavy role in the history of any of the modern indoor strain.

Skunk #1 is known for its strong potent high and both a skunky and a sweet taste. Skunk #1 is a resilient plant that can take plenty of abuse and can produce high yields both indoors and in a greenhouse.

Originally an indica/sativa hybrid, Skunk#1 is one of the most true breeding strains in the world. Skunk#1 can produce huge, sticky buds with a very high calyx-to-leaf ratio. Lots of trichomes on this plant. Watch your odor control with this one!




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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7281351 - 08/10/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

well man, that's crazy, i didn't think it was random, i thought it was based on change, like most of nature, changing to grow accordingly, that sounds way different from what i've heard, that it's random, some people don't believe in the concept of constant change.

anyway, i thought peoples brains, and body nerves in brain respond accordingly, to how they grow, and change in the environment. and thus, they keep certain genes that they obtain in new growth in life, and pass them on to their child.

i don't know where all this randomness crap comes from, genes are hard to change because they are coded into a person, a person grows from a fuckin skeleton, skeletons have pieces that are hard to move, such as the genes in the dna. but a light comes from a reaction, that happens in a chemical change, from a fire, created by two things reacting, causing heat, and flame, and those 2 things were the heat of the fire before it, and the wood molecules, and before that they were flint and the metal that rubbed against each other producing another prerequisite reaction that made the spark, and whatever molecules the wood grew from. it wasn't just random, nothing is just random, unless it's random because it has the room for creative change, but besides that all necessary things are produced from certain changes according to response man. If a leaf grows a fan to shades it from too much sun, it's not just "random dude, god, the changes in genes are just always so fuckin radical man, like, spontenously it did that, man." what that is, is a set change in a gene, taken for future use later, directly based on what the plant needed.

I don't know, scientists are always going to win, but i think scientists forget where they learn their principles sometimes.
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7282204 - 08/10/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
man, are you serious? you know YOUR genes change in your life, right? i mean, you get your parents genes, and then you develop your own traits as you grow and change, of course they're still based on human genetics and everything, and your parents genetics, but i'm sure if your parents didn't exercise, and you exercise every day of your life, your kids are going to have inherited your exercise genetics to an extent, especially if you developed them well. Anyway, damn, hundreds of years maybe, but i thought thc was readily available to mutate, i thought pot mutated constantly, i guess not, but anyway, i'd like to try cloning. you don't think if i cut off the best branch of the tree, and replant it, it'll get a little better each time, you don't think i'd see chronic in my life? i don't know, anyway, i'm just wondering. I've seen plants that can get better immediately, if you keep regrowing it with good growing, they increase a little every time you replant it, i thought pot was one of those same plants, but no? anyway, let me know
peace




By this logic the children of amputees would be born missing the same limbs, or shorter at any rate. This is Lamarckism and it's wrong.

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InvisibleBlueDruid
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7282217 - 08/10/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


well man, that's crazy, i didn't think it was random, i thought it was based on change, like most of nature, changing to grow accordingly, that sounds way different from what i've heard, that it's random, some people don't believe in the concept of constant change.


It sounds like you may have heard about evolution from the advocates of 'intelligent design'.

The randomness is the mix of genes (only half of your own set) passed on to your offspring.

I hope your not pissing us about, it sounds like it.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: BlueDruid]
    #7282810 - 08/10/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

damn, this is really technical, if a person who was an amputee had a child with a missing arm, then no, that would definately be wrong, the good traits are supposed to be carried over.

obviously the basic traits, you know, being human or whatever, are going to remain the same, obviously your not going to grow an extra finger over night, that takes thousands opon thousands of years. And if the plant has perfect genetics, it might not change anyway, an onion plant might be an onion plant for another million years, you know?

i was just argueing the rate of change, saying everything changes, over time. I suppose genetics are a code, but a code changes also, slowly perhaps, but none the less. Anyhow, I just thought, if you became a good reader in your life, and your parents weren't good readers, that your kid might inherit some of those traits, i mean maybe not, but does anyone know for sure? your genes change a little as you grow, right?
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: what is the genetic rate of increase? [Re: imachavel]
    #7283262 - 08/10/07 11:19 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

from what swim has noticed, clones react and grow just like the mother plants.

I have alway's wondered myself if there is some way that the clone produces better than the mother plant. I have found that the grower's experience get's better with each crop, so the harvest keep's getting better as well. But as far as the plant accually changing in even some minute way I have no idea.

How would one go about and record such changes? Take a DNA reading of some sort from the mother plant and check it against a series of clones, and clones of clones?

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