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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
f n o r d
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Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,191
Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: Basilides]
    #7258683 - 08/04/07 12:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If they were to bomb Mecca during the Hajj, that's around 1million people dead.  Plus the destruction of Mecca.  Then WW3 would definitely be upon us.  Which is fine, because let's stop fucking around and just get it over with.  :smirk:


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Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #7259011 - 08/04/07 02:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Although the first four posts in this thread show a complete lack of respect for culture and life similar to the extremists they rail against. It is good to see the preponderence of posters realize that an eye for an eye makes us all blind. We at present are dealing exactly with what Russian generals foretold after their debacle in Afghanistan. That what we created among the fundamentalist extremists to combat the Russians would soon come back to haunt us.
It will hurt many peoples worldview to come to terms with the FACT that we created our own enemy on purpose to perpetuate war.
Why is it the loudest hawks have the shortest memories? We have trained and funded nearly every present combatant we face at some time or another. But not one of you seem to grok why. Maybe give some thought to who we are fighting and our history together instead of blustering like the microcephalic Tancredo.
Can we get some fuckng perspective? Say generously that including the false acusation that AlQ@da did 9/11 and all other american "terrorist" deaths amount to 5000 souls does that excuse the hundreds of thousands we have destroyed or killed in revenge already?
We have been at war for some time now to stem "terror"( notice the switch in wording next chance you get. It was once terrorism) yet they are predicting a greater attack than 9/11? Excellent progress!
Perhaps a more realistic approach would be to extracate and isolate but our purile addiction to petroleum wealth (notice wealth not petrol as after all it is about wealth and power not commodities,just their value)will not have that happen so we shall continue to mire in the filth we created and it will drag us down to the level that has been planned for for a century. It WILL happen as it has to every superpower the world has seen since recorded history began.
WR


--------------------
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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: whiterasta]
    #7259037 - 08/04/07 02:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Say generously that including the false acusation that AlQ@da did 9/11...




False accusation? So Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is lying when he says he was the guy who organized the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden's orders? What makes you think he is lying about that?

If it wasn't Al Qaeda who did it, who was it?




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: whiterasta]
    #7259069 - 08/04/07 02:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
Although the first four posts in this thread show a complete lack of respect for culture and life similar to the extremists they rail against. It is good to see the preponderence of posters realize that an eye for an eye makes us all blind. We at present are dealing exactly with what Russian generals foretold after their debacle in Afghanistan. That what we created among the fundamentalist extremists to combat the Russians would soon come back to haunt us.
It will hurt many peoples worldview to come to terms with the FACT that we created our own enemy on purpose to perpetuate war.
Why is it the loudest hawks have the shortest memories? We have trained and funded nearly every present combatant we face at some time or another. But not one of you seem to grok why. Maybe give some thought to who we are fighting and our history together instead of blustering like the microcephalic Tancredo.
Can we get some fuckng perspective? Say generously that including the false acusation that AlQ@da did 9/11 and all other american "terrorist" deaths amount to 5000 souls does that excuse the hundreds of thousands we have destroyed or killed in revenge already?
We have been at war for some time now to stem "terror"( notice the switch in wording next chance you get. It was once terrorism) yet they are predicting a greater attack than 9/11? Excellent progress!
Perhaps a more realistic approach would be to extracate and isolate but our purile addiction to petroleum wealth (notice wealth not petrol as after all it is about wealth and power not commodities,just their value)will not have that happen so we shall continue to mire in the filth we created and it will drag us down to the level that has been planned for for a century. It WILL happen as it has to every superpower the world has seen since recorded history began.
WR




More fantasist nonsense from the "America controls everything bad" crowd. We did not create radical fundamentalist Muslim assholes. They have been around for longer than America has. Ask Spain and India. Unbelievable.

Russian generals whining about what we created, how very....well, whiny. The odd thing is is that they weren't defeated by the Afghans so much as they were defeated by soldier's mothers wondering what the fuck they were doing there in the first place. Like us in Vietnam. Don't bother with the parallels to Iraq, I see hardly any of that this time.


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Offlineledfut
I once jerkedoff w/ bothhands
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7259123 - 08/04/07 02:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

whiterasta said:
Although the first four posts in this thread show a complete lack of respect for culture and life similar to the extremists they rail against. It is good to see the preponderence of posters realize that an eye for an eye makes us all blind. We at present are dealing exactly with what Russian generals foretold after their debacle in Afghanistan. That what we created among the fundamentalist extremists to combat the Russians would soon come back to haunt us.
It will hurt many peoples worldview to come to terms with the FACT that we created our own enemy on purpose to perpetuate war.
Why is it the loudest hawks have the shortest memories? We have trained and funded nearly every present combatant we face at some time or another. But not one of you seem to grok why. Maybe give some thought to who we are fighting and our history together instead of blustering like the microcephalic Tancredo.
Can we get some fuckng perspective? Say generously that including the false acusation that AlQ@da did 9/11 and all other american "terrorist" deaths amount to 5000 souls does that excuse the hundreds of thousands we have destroyed or killed in revenge already?
We have been at war for some time now to stem "terror"( notice the switch in wording next chance you get. It was once terrorism) yet they are predicting a greater attack than 9/11? Excellent progress!
Perhaps a more realistic approach would be to extracate and isolate but our purile addiction to petroleum wealth (notice wealth not petrol as after all it is about wealth and power not commodities,just their value)will not have that happen so we shall continue to mire in the filth we created and it will drag us down to the level that has been planned for for a century. It WILL happen as it has to every superpower the world has seen since recorded history began.
WR




More fantasist nonsense from the "America controls everything bad" crowd. We did not create radical fundamentalist Muslim assholes. They have been around for longer than America has. Ask Spain and India. Unbelievable.

Russian generals whining about what we created, how very....well, whiny. The odd thing is is that they weren't defeated by the Afghans so much as they were defeated by soldier's mothers wondering what the fuck they were doing there in the first place. Like us in Vietnam. Don't bother with the parallels to Iraq, I see hardly any of that this time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen
i suggest you turn off the tv and start reading more.

also i suggest you pick up a copy of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3968544393356669182&q=john+perkins&total=321&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
that's the first part of a lecture he did where he goes into a few of the details that are in his book. you can just do a google video search and get the other 2 parts.


--------------------
May our only occupation be not having a job.
May the only cocktails that we make be molitov.
-Johnny Hobo and the Freight Trains


Edited by ledfut (08/04/07 02:54 PM)


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OfflineJT
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 7,027
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Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: whiterasta]
    #7259241 - 08/04/07 03:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
Although the first four posts in this thread show a complete lack of respect for culture and life similar to the extremists they rail against. It is good to see the preponderence of posters realize that an eye for an eye makes us all blind. We at present are dealing exactly with what Russian generals foretold after their debacle in Afghanistan. That what we created among the fundamentalist extremists to combat the Russians would soon come back to haunt us.
It will hurt many peoples worldview to come to terms with the FACT that we created our own enemy on purpose to perpetuate war.
Why is it the loudest hawks have the shortest memories? We have trained and funded nearly every present combatant we face at some time or another. But not one of you seem to grok why. Maybe give some thought to who we are fighting and our history together instead of blustering like the microcephalic Tancredo.
Can we get some fuckng perspective? Say generously that including the false acusation that AlQ@da did 9/11 and all other american "terrorist" deaths amount to 5000 souls does that excuse the hundreds of thousands we have destroyed or killed in revenge already?
We have been at war for some time now to stem "terror"( notice the switch in wording next chance you get. It was once terrorism) yet they are predicting a greater attack than 9/11? Excellent progress!
Perhaps a more realistic approach would be to extracate and isolate but our purile addiction to petroleum wealth (notice wealth not petrol as after all it is about wealth and power not commodities,just their value)will not have that happen so we shall continue to mire in the filth we created and it will drag us down to the level that has been planned for for a century. It WILL happen as it has to every superpower the world has seen since recorded history began.
WR




I think it's more about the threat of attacking Mecca as a prevension mechanism than actually bombing it. Like it's been pointed out in this thread, it would cause immeasurable civilian casualties and most likely bring about world war 3.

I just don't see many options at this time. The most promising thing at the moment (in my opinion) is the education of ex-jihadists, or terrorists who have realized the political agenda behind their "jihad," who will testify against al Qaeda. But even so, only a handful of of these people exist.


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OfflineTwiztidShroom
Supreme HighCommander of theFilter FreeAliance
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Registered: 06/28/07
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: JT]
    #7259247 - 08/04/07 03:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It is the only way. That and spraying cities with cropdusters filled with pigs blood. Since acts of jihad is to gain heaven they wont blow themselves up if you spray em with cuz they will think they are going to hell.


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I don't get it, the things I don't want to do, I do. The things I do want to do, I don't do. So if I do the things I don't want to do, then it isn't I that does them, but the sin living in me.

~Corinthians


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Offlineledfut
I once jerkedoff w/ bothhands
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Registered: 02/22/07
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: TwiztidShroom]
    #7259275 - 08/04/07 03:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

what's really ironic is i am sure there are fundamentalist christians in our armed forces over there right now believing they are doing god's work. yet they come back home and are labeled heroes.

i don't know who originated the phrase, but i first read it in a james bovard book

"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."


--------------------
May our only occupation be not having a job.
May the only cocktails that we make be molitov.
-Johnny Hobo and the Freight Trains


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7259338 - 08/04/07 03:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

More fantasist nonsense from the "America controls everything bad" crowd. We did not create radical fundamentalist Muslim assholes. They have been around for longer than America has. Ask Spain and India. Unbelievable.

Russian generals whining about what we created, how very....well, whiny. The odd thing is is that they weren't defeated by the Afghans so much as they were defeated by soldier's mothers wondering what the fuck they were doing there in the first place. Like us in Vietnam. Don't bother with the parallels to Iraq, I see hardly any of that this time




Son your ignorance, and this is no flame but fact, is astounding. Here is a short list of historical subjects you should Wiki before you post again.
Manuel Noriega
The Shah of Iran
Sadaam Hussein
The Sandanistas
The Kmehr Rouge(sp?)
Osama Bin Laden
Stalin
School of the Americas
Russian /Afghan war
Then perhaps you will actually be informed before you spout such inane responses to what is easily verified.
This such activity recently closed a thread I would just as soon it did not end this discussion,, so please become more informed before you attempt an offensive stance in any arguement please.


--------------------
To old for this place


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: whiterasta]
    #7259353 - 08/04/07 04:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's more about the threat of attacking Mecca as a prevension mechanism than actually bombing it. Like it's been pointed out in this thread, it would cause immeasurable civilian casualties and most likely bring about world war 3.

I just don't see many options at this time. The most promising thing at the moment (in my opinion) is the education of ex-jihadists, or terrorists who have realized the political agenda behind their "jihad," who will testify against al Qaeda. But even so, only a handful of of these people exist.




Unless you actually intend to fullfill the threat it is empty and we are playing the same game of terror for terror they are, minus the virgins of course :wink:
Perhaps when you've lived fifty yrs of perpetual war you will realize that peace is neither profitable or desired save by those who actually fight the wars.
WR


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: TwiztidShroom]
    #7259600 - 08/04/07 05:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TwiztidShroom said:
It is the only way. That and spraying cities with cropdusters filled with pigs blood. Since acts of jihad is to gain heaven they wont blow themselves up if you spray em with cuz they will think they are going to hell.




That's a highly stupid thing to believe.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleArp
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Registered: 04/20/98
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: Basilides]
    #7259652 - 08/04/07 06:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

From the Qur'an:
"He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

I don't think the pig blood idea will keep them from heaven :P


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: Basilides]
    #7259747 - 08/04/07 06:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

TwiztidShroom said:
It is the only way. That and spraying cities with cropdusters filled with pigs blood. Since acts of jihad is to gain heaven they wont blow themselves up if you spray em with cuz they will think they are going to hell.




That's a highly stupid thing to believe.




And those couple thousand angry islamist terrorists crippling the wests modern armies will turn into millions, and their will a true clash of nations.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: whiterasta]
    #7259871 - 08/04/07 07:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Say generously that including the false acusation that AlQ@da did 9/11...




False accusation? So Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is lying when he says he was the guy who organized the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden's orders? What makes you think he is lying about that?

If it wasn't Al Qaeda who did it, who was it?




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: ledfut]
    #7259872 - 08/04/07 07:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ledfut said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen
i suggest you turn off the tv and start reading more.




I suggest you spare me the pompous twaddle and read your own links. From the above:

Quote:

The mujahideen were significantly financed, armed, and trained by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the Carter and Reagan administrations, Saudi Arabia, the People's Republic of China, several European countries, Iran, and Pakistan (during the Zia-ul-Haq military regime). The Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) was the interagent used in the majority of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance.




The idea that the US created Muslim extremism is so laughable it barely merits refutation. I watch about a hundred times more Oxygen network than Fox News and I hardly ever watch that.
Quote:



also i suggest you pick up a copy of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3968544393356669182&q=john+perkins&total=321&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
that's the first part of a lecture he did where he goes into a few of the details that are in his book. you can just do a google video search and get the other 2 parts.




I don't do videos, you can't fisk them properly. I've heard of this and am greatly impressed with his ability to sell books.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: whiterasta]
    #7259910 - 08/04/07 08:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:


Son your ignorance, and this is no flame but fact, is astounding. Here is a short list of historical subjects you should Wiki before you post again.
Manuel Noriega
The Shah of Iran
Sadaam Hussein
The Sandanistas
The Kmehr Rouge(sp?)
Osama Bin Laden
Stalin
School of the Americas
Russian /Afghan war
Then perhaps you will actually be informed before you spout such inane responses to what is easily verified.
This such activity recently closed a thread I would just as soon it did not end this discussion,, so please become more informed before you attempt an offensive stance in any arguement please.




You really are a complete comedy act if you don't think that is a flame. What the fuck are you talking about? Are you saying we trained and funded the Sandinistas? The Khmer Rouge? Stalin? Yeah we helped the mujaheedin expel the Soviets. No shit. That doesn't quite equate there, SON, with creating Islamic extremism. If all of this is so easily verified, why don't you put your balls on the table and verify it?

What closed the other thread was you with your increasingly bombastic nonsense regarding the 9/11 attack which I found, frankly, stupid. Like almost everybody else on the planet did. Other planets may have different demographics. Which are you from?


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: ledfut]
    #7259927 - 08/04/07 08:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"also i suggest you pick up a copy of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins."

Why bother? Here are a few reviews from readers at Amazon --

Quote:

"Confessions" is at once too good to be true and too vague to be believed. The author apparently had a successful career supporting requests for development loans for major electric utilities projects to the various less developed countries by grossly inflating their projected economic growth. His motivation for doing so was admittedly to keep his job (his boss was fired when he provided more realistic projections) and flourish in a consulting company whose financial success was clearly dependent upon the loans being approved so that their clients could get the lucrative contracts to do the construction work. Nevertheless, Perkins attempts to make what would just be another sordid tale of Enron-style numbers spoofing into a nearly epic story of official U.S. chicanery by alleging that fraud was perpetuated at the request of the American government in order to trap the borrower nations, apparently too ignorant or corrupt to watch out for themselves, into an eternity of economic and political servitude by intentionally burdening them with debts they could not pay.

Unfortunately, despite Perkins career as a self-proclaimed "economist", his book is devoid of even a single statistic backing up this claim. Instead, it rests almost solely upon the words of a mysterious "Claudia" - a woman who present herself not as a U.S. government agent, but as a consultant to Perkins's employer - who in a series of secret meetings imbued this revelation to Perkins from on high as it were, much as Gabriel dictated the Qu'ran to Mohammed. To say that this story is hard to believe is to treat it with a respect it is manifestly undeserving.

Perkins's main pitch seems to be that his own apparently solid status as an establishment insider is sufficient proof of his own credibility, despite his enthusiastic admissions that he made a substantial fortune exaggerating and lieing for a living. Yet Perkins is no McNamara, but a best a midlevel manager in the "corporatocracy" he exposes, and his story lacks the abundant details which made true insider accounts, like Phillip Agee's "Inside the Company" so unmistakably authentic and powerful. In fact, it is precisely its quasi-fictional nature, rather like Carlos Castaneda's dubious account of his dealings with Native American shamans, which makes "Confessions" such a good read. It reads like fiction because it basically is fiction, albeit interlaced with enough true events from the author's life and recent history to give it the veneer of plausibility.

In the end it is useful mostly for the (few) books it cites in its (sparse) footnotes, which offer some useful insights into some of the lesser known incidents in the history of the American Empire, such as the abortive careers of Omar Torrijos and Jaime Roldos. But it cannot be treated as a serious contribution to the debate on globalization.




Quote:

I really wanted to enjoy this book. I was looking forward to a description of how the World Bank, IMF and the 'aid industry' was collaborating to keep LDCs from actually realizing improvements in their systems.

Instead, John Perkins gives us wild speculation and claims with absolutly no facts to back them up. He describes his first assignment in Indonesia, tells how he 'cooked the books' and then completly ignores any further discussion of the matter. As a reader I have no idea if his economic estimates:
1) actually resulted in any loans, economic programs, etc.
2) if his inflated projections ended up being right or wrong
3) if (or how) internation institutions then used this situation to bend Indonesia to their will

Instead, Perkins just tells us (over and over again) about his guilt.

I do have to admit, I didn't finish reading this rubbish. I did skim the rest of the book hoping to actually find something of substance to substantiate his claims but couldn't find anything.

The most frustrating thing about this book is that I believe the author's claims might be right. It's just very unfortunate that he didn't do anything to prove them.

If you must, pick this up when it's in the dollar bin.




Quote:

This author simply doesn't understand major league international finance. I won't argue that the World Bank and the IMF need overhauls, however, Perkins says "our underlying objective is to burden the (foreign) country with debts it couldn't repay". and the intent of electrical projects all over the world is to benefit a few of the wealthy and "widen the gap between the rich and the poor". HUH? This guy is nuts. I suppose he also thinks the objective of the TVA was to widen the gap between the rich and the poor. I can assure Perkins that the intent of private sector lenders is to get their money back with interest and the intent of the rating agencies is to analyse and critic objectively the work of feasibility studies. Maybe he just worked for a bad apple. He admitted that he was a bad apple. Now he is trying to capitalize on it. A shame. Don't bother reading the book.




Quote:

Probably the biggest revelation in this book is unintentional (and this is NOT a spoiler). And that is that Perkins is a wholly unsympathetic character, both before and after his purported wising up to the Global Capitalist Conspiracy. From one sentence to the next, he manages to go from Corporate-Climbing Ugly American to Simpering One-World Do-Gooder and back again.

In both guises, again and again, Perkins professes complete certainty of things he has no knowledge of, and total ambivalence and confusion about things that are in his face every day. In the end, the book provides interesting critiques of both the pro- and anti-globalization postures (though the latter is, again, unintentional), and evidence that they may not be as different as we think!

He does a poor job of backing up his central thesis, which is that disastrous economic policies and corrupt dictatorships are almost entirely foisted upon the peoples of the world by a string-pulling US oligarchy, backed up by the threat of total annihilation against anyone who opposes them. While there is no doubt some truth to this, even in the narrative "exposé" it never really rises above the level of a gut feeling.

And once again, the weakness of both sides of the debate is exposed: the notion that the people of other nations have no free will, no control or even influence over their own destinies, and sidestepping the fact that local actors play a key - and often decisive - role in adopting and implementing bad (or good) policies. In the end, what we see are just two sides of the white-man's-burden coin, both of which are almost equally ugly.




Quote:

Although the premise of the book - a rebel insider with dangerous knowledge willing to reveal it all for the common good - is appealing, the end result of Perkins' work is less so. It is written in a gripping, fluid style, but ultimately falls flat as a work of non-fiction.

There simply isn't enough hard data in the work to substantiate the author's cloak-and-dagger claims. In addition to the general lack of substance, there were certain elements of the narrative that sound very off, especially with some knowledge of economics and finance. For example, the author claims that he had to convince the members of certain international lending organizations that the lending would be a good deal for them, presumably convincing them that they would be repaid, which the author claims was a lie. Somehow, despite his relative lack of experience, the author was able to pull the wool over the eyes of the experienced analysts and economists at these institutions. How, precisely, he achieved such a feat is left to the reader's imagination. This is only one small example, but there are many other cases where the lack of supporting facts makes the book read like some kind of mediocre spy novel.

Ultimately, it is difficult to look to "Confessions" as a reliable source. It is long on conspiratorial accusations and political and economic intrigue, but painfully short on hard evidence.




Quote:

It simply scares me to think that some who read this book will believe that what it says is true. While this theory of economic imperialism isn't technically impossible, it's the kind of idea better left to an ideological blog somewhere instead of a book purporting to be a true account. Books like this make the left look as naive and stupid as Ann Coulter books make the right look bigoted and, well, stupid. This is an incredibly implausible account, and books like this, claiming to be nonfiction, undermine good writing and reporting everywhere. Shame on the author and the publisher. The only redeeming quality of this book was that it contained a list of other books published by Berrett-Koehler, the contents of which make it obvious that BK is simly a peddler of 4th rate crackpot theories, all of which appear to be of the nonfiction variety.




Quote:

HIS STORY

John Perkins' tale is the basic conspiracy story, writ large. In it the villains are the U.S. government, shadowy intelligence organizations, greedy American corporations, and as a hook to make the story more plausible than the usual pretense of investigative journalism, John Perkins himself. His claim is that the U.S. National Security Agency recruited and encouraged him to work for a consulting firm in which he falsified data to support large loans for projects which were planned to fail. According to his conspiracy theory, the inevitable bankruptcy of these projects then led to American access to natural resources, military cooperation, and political support.

And who is this John Perkins, who claims he could confound the best economists of the World Bank and other aid institutions? According to biographical material scattered at random in the book, he majored in American Literature at Middlebury college, transferred, without a degree, to Boston University where he received a BA in Business Administration with emphasis in marketing. While the study of literature and marketing are quite apparent in his book, a basic economics course, which was surely required, was not. Oh yes, he "had taken a couple of intensive courses aimed at teaching executives the finer points of econometrics". It's nice to know that econometric modeling of developing countries is so easy!

The author presents no evidence that he was recruited to be an "Economic Hit Man" by the NSA. He admits that as a consultant he had no communication with anyone who ever even claimed to be NSA, nor did he ever receive any money from the NSA. Instead of evidence we are referred to shadowy figures which, because no details are given, can not be refuted. One is the "Uncle Frank", who is the friend of his stepfather (who is also unidentified). The other is the mysterious Claudine Martin who mentors him and steals his heart in what can only be referred to as dream sequences. He admits that no records of her exist. She warns him that true hit men, which he colorfully describes in his book as Jackals (too many spy novels, John?), will kill them if they ever tell the true story of what they are doing. Later when she has disappeared, and no one seems to know that she even existed he writes, "An image flashed before me of Claudine flailing, falling in a rain of bullets, assassinated." So now the tale has its heroine, albeit short lived. Assassinations play a walk-on role in two chapters near the end when two Latin American leaders are killed in plane crashes. These become assassinations in the author's view.

The author's musings and speculations of what happened on the world scene in the 60's and 70's are liberally mixed in with quite accurate reporting with footnotes supplied from popular sources. John Perkins shows us that he understands this technique when he writes, "Outright lies can be refuted. Documents like those few were impossible to refute because they were based on glimmers of truth, not open deceptions..." Perhaps John Perkins meant this statement to be the review of his book.

THE PROBABLE STORY

Most books tell us if the author has written other books and lists them both as evidence of credibility and to sell those books. This book merely states that Perkins is "The author of five previous books." A search shows that they are in the mystical, shamanistic genre. One, Shapeshifting: Techniques for Global and Personal Transformation, Sept. 1, 1997, was favorably reviewed this way. "He [John Perkins] tells fascinating stories of how he overcame his initial skepticism and doubt to become one with a chair, transform herbs into a newspaper, and travel through time and space as a blue ball of light."

If the author wrote "Hit Man" as a believer in not just the spiritual transformation of the mind, perhaps with some physiological effects, but in true super paranormal powers, then his motivation is easy to fathom. With a rich fantasy life, he could almost unconciously transform (I almost wrote shapeshift) his life experiences into a fantasy book. The Peace Corps exposed him to the poverty and injustice of the undeveloped world early, and the assumption must be that this would concern him even if he did join to avoid the draft. Consulting is a difficult profession ethically. You are often hired to tell the client what he wants to hear. The fact that you live well as an expatriate, who by accident of birth has a privileged life, while equally intelligent, hardworking people have little, increase the feelings of guilt. With these feelings, and little real grasp of the complexities of international development, it is an easy leap to a fantasy world to exorcize these demons. By transferring these evils to the government, shadowy security agencies, and greedy corporations, he and all of his readers who participate by believing him become almost guilt free. In several passages of the book he admitted to having lived in a fantasy world. Is he still living in that fantasy world?

There may be, however, a (to use one of the author's often used words) sinister explanation. The author, John Perkins, is a con man. He admits that as a consultant he was a con man. Some less charitable reviewers would say that an author who preys on readers beliefs in super paranormal powers is a con man. His remark quoted above to avoid outright lies and base what you say on glimmers of truth are almost the credo of a con man. Perhaps the niche market for shamanistic, spiritual books is just too small and the market for conspiracy theories just too tempting (think The Da Vinci Code). Watch out for his next book now that he has written a lucrative best seller.

SO WHAT?

So what if a writer crafts a conspiracy theory blaming America, intelligence agencies, and greedy corporations for most of the ills of the underdeveloped world? Because it diverts the public from the real concerns of international development. There are many good books written on this incredibly complex subject. How can we explain how some countries with minimal foreign aid and scarce natural resources take off economically? How do we eliminate the most inefficent tax of all, corruption? How can we quantify those quality of life issues which, as John Perkins correctly notes, are not a part of GDP? How can we harness the efficiency, innovation, and drive of market economics while providing social safety nets and regulating adequately to keep the free for all from getting out of hand? Many very smart, well educated, dedicated people are seeking these answers and writing about them. Economic shape shifting is unlikely to get us to good solutions.






I could provide several dozen more, but I won't bother since it is obvious that even if the book were non-fiction (and it clearly isn't) it has nothing to do with murderous Muslim fanatics and the wisdom (or lack thereof) of bombing their "churches".



Phred


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7260036 - 08/04/07 08:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The idea that the US created Muslim extremism is so laughable it barely merits refutation.




Well, the Muslim world isn't the only segment of the human society that has had negative encounters with the United States, but they are the only ones violently lashing out. American foreign policy has been a major problem that has exacerbated extremism, especially the Iraq war. During Iraq's colonial phase the British were perhaps almost as ruthless with the Iraqis as they were with the Beors, yet the British did need experience the phenomena of popular insurgency during the colonial days of Iraq; asymmetric global jihad didn't exist then either. Western powers could take virtually any Muslim land without any indigenous resistance. Today it seems to be another story completely, a contrast that one can only be attributed to how Muslim society has responded to different situations in their post-colonial period. As it is now, Egyptians and Saudis are more likely to embrace radical jihad in Iraq than Muslims in Jordan, Iran, Syria or Lebanon - and it is no coincidence that Egypt and Saudi Arabia are the realpolitik subjects of American interests. Muslims have every right to be outraged at the United States - at the same time, the U.S. will always reserve the right to protect herself despite playing a large role in today's 21st century dichotomy.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: Basilides]
    #7260078 - 08/04/07 09:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"Playing a large role in today's 21st century dichotomy?" Firstly, "dichotomy" is a dream long since lost, the world is way more fractured than that. It is veritably us vs them and them and them and them and some of those with the endless vacations as well. But, and this is big, there is no way we can NOT play a huge part. It just isn't possible and to pretend otherwise is just schizophrenic.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Attack the US? We'll bomb your 'churches.' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7260110 - 08/04/07 09:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Of course - but not only has the Iraq war fanned considerable outrage, it has directly harmed American interests on its own merit by letting other "thems" run amuck, particularly Iran. To pretend the U.S. has clean hands in the midst of this spectacle coming from the Muslim world is a bit naive; Muslims are human, and they tend to channel their anger through their rather hawkish religion. It's unfortunately taboo for American politicians to blame U.S. foreign policy in the region as being a contributing factor its mess of unrest.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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