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OfflineKanker
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: BenitoBodybag]
    #7220008 - 07/24/07 08:57 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BenitoBodybag said:
Its not so much as turning it into lsd as it is extracting the lsa from the seeds, its kinda risky though cause you might end up eating ethenol or something. Just look up morning glory seeds on erowid.com and read the extraction methods.




or setting fire to your house, since ether is like, ultra volatile :S
and yes, i should think that making smaller alterations generally requires the larger amount of work.


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I'm ahead, I'm advanced
I am the first mammal to make plans, yeah
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher
2010, watch it go to fire.
It's evolution baby.
-Pearl Jam


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InvisibleAcyl
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: johnm214]
    #7220826 - 07/25/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Yeah, though, the prob w/ lysergic acid is that it has some vulnerable points on it that are going to be more reactive than the site you want to ehthylate. If this weren't so, you could absolutly add 2+ molar equivalents N sodium ehtylamine {edit: N sodium ethylamide; damn nomenclature) and make LSA into LSD.




Thats not a problem if you do it right.. You gotta convert the only carboxylic acid functional group into an acyl chloride functional group by exposing it to thionyl chloride (this reaction is very specialized to carboxylic acids and alcohols... theres no alcohol present in lysergic acid so only the carboxylic acid will react). This highly reactive acyl chloride will react immediately with any nucleophile to create the corresponding carboxylic acid derivative (amide with an amine, ester with alcohol etc....) to get LSD you would just add the correct amine 'diethylamine' to the lysergic acid chloride.

So in sum... (as ive stated before)

Lysergic acid + thionyl chloride -> lysergic acid chloride + diethylamine -> LSD

This is followed by a quick cleanup and solvent stripping, voila.


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OfflineTurntableJunky
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7220833 - 07/25/07 02:28 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

For that you would need A shitload of seeds for a small amount of lsd. Wouldnt you?


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InvisibleAcyl
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7220834 - 07/25/07 02:28 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

And its sodium diethylamide, the N nomenclature is unnecessary for the sodium ionic bond.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7220849 - 07/25/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, that makes sense, you have to look at every piece of the molecule. No one says that organic molecules are necessarily very stable, organic things break down very quickly no matter what they are. Anyway, these chemicals that work in the laboratory, rearranging this molecule and everything, they do just what they need to to get the molecule arranged in order without damaging the molecular compounds that form the whole molecule together. In nature this is mostly done with enzymes, and of course other organic molecules, such as nutrients or minerals, and then whatever is produced from that, amino acids, etc. Are there equivalents in nature to these lysergic acid compounds, not quite this, but not quite that? Or should I say 'active' lysergic acid, that is, ready to be bonded, or changed with another compound, or i suppose decompose, I don't know. GIVE ME SOME FEEDBACK!
peace


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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InvisibleAcyl
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: imachavel]
    #7220862 - 07/25/07 02:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

The only reason LSD isnt seen in nature is because we have yet to find a plant that produces enzymes that push a reaction from whatever biochemical precursor present in the plant to LSD.

Quote:


Are there equivalents in nature to these lysergic acid compounds, not quite this, but not quite that? Or should I say 'active' lysergic acid, that is, ready to be bonded,





Are you asking about the lysergic acid chloride molecule? No, it is VERY unlikely to find this compound in nature. Its a highly reactive molecule that will react with virtually any nucleophillic compound, including water!

This is an example of the quick and dirty lab synthesis vs the complex beautiful plant biosynthesis.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7220886 - 07/25/07 03:17 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So in sum... (as ive stated before)

Lysergic acid + thionyl chloride -> lysergic acid chloride + diethylamine -> LSD

This is followed by a quick cleanup and solvent stripping, voila.




Yeah, you're right, that would work beautifully (for some reason I forgot those alcohol to halide reagents could be used on a carboxylic acid).


Edited by johnm214 (07/25/07 03:19 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7220892 - 07/25/07 03:23 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Acyl said:
And its sodium diethylamide, the N nomenclature is unnecessary for the sodium ionic bond.




Why is this, cuz you really couldn't have the sodium on the ethyl portion of ethylamide (due to the Nitrogen's prefrence), so its implied?


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InvisibleAcyl
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: johnm214]
    #7220900 - 07/25/07 03:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

There is no logical reason for naming it that way, its conventional. IUPAC states their rules of nitrogen N nomenclature and I adhere to em.

But yeah, it is kinda implied also. Most chemists would look at you funny if you threw a sodium cation onto the carbon chain in diethylamine on paper.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7220910 - 07/25/07 03:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Ah yes, I'm a jackass... the amide denotes the nitrogen has the charge, not an N.... got yah


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InvisibleAcyl
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: johnm214]
    #7220912 - 07/25/07 03:40 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

:bongload:


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:scrambled:

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InvisibleOgla
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Acyl]
    #7221286 - 07/25/07 09:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

the recipe as written in the anarchist cookbook is just a recipe for LSA Extraction from Morning glories/ HBWR seeds. Once you have LSA extract, that is the first step to making LSD. But the actual recipe is much more complicated and can't be done with a simple conversion.

I've done extensive research on LSD and talked to people about acquiring the chemicals and lab materials, but is actually very unlikely that it will ever happen without some degree in chemistry. It takes so long just to understand the recipe thoroughly

Just try making morning glory tea. It works you know. If trying to make LSD, i think the recipe using powdered ergot alkaloid is the way to go, but my search for ergot has lead me nowhere expect empty fields


Edited by Ogla (07/25/07 09:05 AM)


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: Ogla]
    #7222938 - 07/25/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

damn, so lysergic acid chloride will react with water, huh? what exactly IS a nucleophile. Anyway, on my other post, you see the difference in making dmt, and it growing, the laboratory synthesis is much more unstable. In the plant, you need the correct amino acid inhibitor, or an enzyme, to take it through the correct phase. I'm sure even if the plant could quickly metabolize lysergic acid chloride to lsd, that would most likely not happen because it would be very unstable in plant growth, maybe if the vine grew an inch or hour no matter what! then the life of the vine would probably be very short lived, much like a fungus. But in rivea corymbosa, lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide is made under very stable conditions. So if you found the correct enzymatic pathway, you could probably biosynthesize lsd in a plant without lysergic acid chloride, or lysergic acid hydrazide, or whatever. Anyway I don't know
PEACE

are there growth enhancement enzymes for plants? Maybe on of those?.........


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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OfflineCallMeB
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: imachavel]
    #7223001 - 07/25/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Anarchist Cookbook recipe, LOL.

:rofl2:


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: CallMeB]
    #7223029 - 07/25/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

they have one? peace


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: imachavel]
    #7223500 - 07/25/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

imachavel,

yeah, the whole point of enzymes is that they're very specific to a certain product from certain reagents, and they get the job done quickly, and without harsh intermediates (which would be hard to have floating around in a cell long enough to react)

Modern chemistry is just now trying to craft enzyme-like catalysts for industrial reactions, but it's very hard to reason out. I mean, even having the sequence of the enzyme doesn't tell you what it looks like all folded up in solution (this is what folding at home is trying to tell us) or what it does, though certain parts are common among certain enzymatic functions ie. caboxylases, aminases, et cet.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: johnm214]
    #7223503 - 07/25/07 06:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

A nucleophile is any molecule that has a tendency to seek the positive charge at the nucleous of the atom. i.e. the ethylamine is nucleophillic at the nitrogen, and will attack the carbonyl carbon of the acid chloride, forming a bond and displacing the chloride


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: johnm214]
    #7223543 - 07/25/07 06:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

hmm... but what about experimenting with enzymes to see what psychedelics come out, I mean the worst that'll happen is either the plant will make something extremely poisonous, or since that's unlikeley being that ergotamine type compounds in claviceps and hbwr are already poisonously complex being the different types already being produced, it would either kill the plant, or the plant would make use of the enzyme at a certain function. One thing I'm almost positive of, I've heard somewhere that there is definately a very psychedelic molecule very similar, but different to lsd, found in nature. I've also heard that adding hormones to hbwr changes the content of the lysergic acid in the seeds. Now is lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide the one? can it be made with a certain lysergic acid containing seed extract, mixed with something? No one has ENTIRELY answered this question for me yet. Anyhow, I believe just from the different seeds i've eaten from the hbwr I've grown, that the way it grows produces the lysergic acids differently, some seeds have been more psychedelic than others. I don't know, why this matters to me, since I've found a source for acid now. Something in me just tells me that natural seeds could make you feel just like a stamp, and that it should be done, in a seed, or a mushroom, or bacterial growth, or something.
PEACE


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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OfflineJive turkey
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: lysergicide]
    #7293379 - 08/14/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Does anyone know if the morning glory flowers themselves contain LSA or is it just the seeds?


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InvisibleKilroyMilosevik
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Re: lsa to lsd conversion? [Re: CallMeB]
    #7293408 - 08/14/07 08:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CallMeB said:
Anarchist Cookbook recipe, LOL.

:rofl2:




True that.. the only recipes that book has are recipes for disaster


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-The door.
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-Why is the door closed?
        *Gasps*
-Why DOES the door close!?


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