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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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I didn't write it, but I like it!
    #720518 - 07/03/02 01:31 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

10 Great Things About America
Dinesh D'Souza
Thursday, July 4, 2002
In the aftermath of last September's terrorist attack, we've heard a great deal about "why they hate us" and about why America is so bad. We?ve endured lengthy lectures about America?s history of slavery, about the defects of American foreign policy, about the materialism of American life, and about the excesses of American culture. In the view of many critics at home and abroad, America can do no right.
This indictment, which undermines the patriotism of Americans, is based on a narrow and distorted understanding of America. It exaggerates America?s faults and ignores what is good and even great about America.

As an immigrant who has chosen to become a U.S. citizen, I feel especially qualified to say what is special about this country. Having grown up in a different society ? in my case, Mumbai, India ? I am not only able to identify aspects of America that are invisible to people who have always lived here, but also acutely conscious of the daily blessings that I enjoy in America.

Here, then, is my list of the 10 great things about America.

1. America provides an amazingly good life for the ordinary guy.

Rich people live well everywhere. But what distinguishes America is that it provides an incomparably high standard of living for the "common man.? We now live in a country where construction workers regularly pay $4 for a nonfat latte, where maids drive nice cars, and where plumbers take their families on vacation to Europe.

Indeed, newcomers to the United States are struck by the amenities enjoyed by "poor" people in the United States. This fact was dramatized in the 1980s when CBS television broadcast the documentary "People Like Us," which was intended to show the miseries of the poor during an ongoing recession. The Soviet Union also broadcast the documentary, with a view to embarrassing the Reagan administration.

But by the testimony of former Soviet leaders, it had the opposite effect. Ordinary people across the Soviet Union saw that the poorest Americans have TV sets, microwave ovens and cars. They arrived at the same perception that I witnessed in an acquaintance of mine from Bombay who has been unsuccessfully trying to move to the United States.

I asked him, "Why are you so eager to come to America?" He replied, "I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat."

2. America offers more opportunity and social mobility than any other country, including the countries of Europe.

America is the only country that has created a population of "self-made tycoons." Only in America could Pierre Omidyar, whose parents are Iranian and who grew up in Paris, have started a company like eBay. Only in America could Vinod Khosla, the son of an Indian army officer, become a leading venture capitalist, the shaper of the technology industry, and a billionaire to boot.

Admittedly, tycoons are not typical, but no country has created a better ladder than America for people to ascend from modest circumstances to success.

3. Work and trade are respectable in America, which is not true elsewhere.

Historically, most cultures have despised the merchant and the laborer, regarding the former as vile and corrupt and the latter as degraded and vulgar. Some cultures, such as that of ancient Greece and medieval Islam, even held that it is better to acquire things through plunder than through trade or contract labor.

But the American founders altered this moral hierarchy. They established a society in which the life of the businessman, and of the people who work for him, would be a noble calling. In the American view, there is nothing vile or degraded about serving your customers either as a CEO or as a waiter.

The ordinary life of production and supporting a family is more highly valued in the United States than in any other country. Indeed, America is the only country in the world where we call the waiter "sir," as if he were a knight.

4. America has achieved greater social equality than any other society.

True, there are large inequalities of income and wealth in America. In purely economic terms, Europe is more egalitarian. But Americans are socially more equal than any other people, and this is unaffected by economic disparities. Alexis De Tocqueville noticed this egalitarianism a century and a half ago, but it is if anything more prevalent today.

For all his riches, Bill Gates could not approach the typical American and say, "Here?s a $100 bill. I'll give it to you if you kiss my feet." Most likely the person would tell Gates to go to hell! The American view is that the rich guy may have more money, but he isn?t in any fundamental sense better than anyone else.

5. People live longer, fuller lives in America.

Although protesters rail against the American version of technological capitalism at trade meetings around the world, in reality the American system has given citizens many more years of life, and the means to live more intensely and actively.

In 1900, the life expectancy in America was around 50 years; today, it is more than 75 years. Advances in medicine and agriculture are mainly responsible for the change. This extension of the lifespan means more years to enjoy life, more free time to devote to a good cause, and more occasions to do things with the grandchildren.

In many countries, people who are old seem to have nothing to do; they just wait to die. In America, the old are incredibly vigorous, and people in their 70s pursue the pleasures of life, including remarriage and sexual gratification, with a zeal that I find unnerving.

6. In America, the destiny of the young is not given to them but is created by them.

Not long ago, I asked myself, "What would my life have been like if I had never come to the United States?"

If I had remained in India, I would probably have lived my whole life within a five-mile radius of where I was born. I would undoubtedly have married a woman of my identical religious and socioeconomic background. I would almost certainly have become a medical doctor, or an engineer, or a computer programmer. I would have socialized entirely within my ethnic community.

I would have a whole set of opinions that could be predicted in advance; indeed, they would not be very different from what my father believed, or his father before him. In sum, my destiny would, to a large degree, have been given to me.

In America, I have seen my life take a radically different course. In college I became interested in literature and politics, and I resolved to make a career as a writer. I married a woman whose ancestry is English, French, Scotch-Irish, German and American Indian.

In my 20s I found myself working as a policy analyst in the White House, even though I was not an American citizen. No other country, I am sure, would have permitted a foreigner to work in its inner citadel of government.

In most countries in the world, your fate and your identity are handed to you; in America, you determine them for yourself. America is a country where you get to write the script of your own life. Your life is like a blank sheet of paper, and you are the artist.

This notion of being the architect of your own destiny is the incredibly powerful idea that is behind the worldwide appeal of America. Young people especially find irresistible the prospect of authoring the narrative of their own lives.

7. America has gone further than any other society in establishing equality of rights.

There is nothing distinctively American about slavery or bigotry. Slavery has existed in virtually every culture, and xenophobia, prejudice and discrimination are worldwide phenomena. Western civilization is the only civilization to mount a principled campaign against slavery; no country expended more treasure and blood to get rid of slavery than the United States.

While racism remains a problem in America, this country has made strenuous efforts to eradicate discrimination, even to the extent of enacting policies that give legal preference in university admissions, jobs and government contracts to members of minority groups. Such policies remain controversial, but the point is that it is extremely unlikely that a racist society would have permitted such policies in the first place.

And surely African Americans like Jesse Jackson are vastly better off living in America than they would be if they were to live in, say, Ethiopia or Somalia.

8. America has found a solution to the problem of religious and ethnic conflict that continues to divide and terrorize much of the world.

Visitors to places like New York are amazed to see the way in which Serbs and Croatians, Sikhs and Hindus, Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants, Jews and Palestinians all seem to work and live together in harmony. How is this possible when these same groups are spearing each other and burning each other?s homes in so many places in the world?

The American answer is twofold. First, separate the spheres of religion and government so that no religion is given official preference but all are free to practice their faith as they wish. Second, do not extend rights to racial or ethnic groups but only to individuals; in this way, all are equal in the eyes of the law, opportunity is open to anyone who can take advantage of it, and everybody who embraces the American way of life can "become American."

Of course there are exceptions to these core principles, even in America. Racial preferences are one such exception, which explains why they are controversial. But in general, America is the only country in the world that extends full membership to outsiders.

The typical American could come to India, live for 40 years and take Indian citizenship. But he could not "become Indian." He wouldn?t see himself that way, nor would most Indians see him that way. In America, by contrast, hundreds of millions have come from far-flung shores and over time they, or at least their children, have in a profound and full sense "become American."

9. America has the kindest, gentlest foreign policy of any great power in world history.

Critics of the U.S. are likely to react to this truth with sputtering outrage. They will point to longstanding American support for a Latin or Middle Eastern despot, or the unjust internment of the Japanese during World War II, or America's reluctance to impose sanctions on South Africa?s apartheid regime. However one feels about these particular cases, let us concede to the critics the point that America is not always in the right.

What the critics leave out is the other side of the ledger. Twice in the 20th century, the United States saved the world: first from the Nazi threat, then from Soviet totalitarianism. What would have been the world's fate if America had not existed? After destroying Germany and Japan in World War II, the U.S. proceeded to rebuild both countries, and today they are American allies. Now we are doing the same thing with Afghanistan.

Consider, too, how magnanimous the U.S. has been to the former Soviet Union after the U.S. victory in the Cold War. For the most part, America is an abstaining superpower: It shows no real interest in conquering and subjugating the rest of the world. (Imagine how the Soviets would have acted if they had won the Cold War.)

On occasion, America intervenes to overthrow a tyrannical regime or to halt massive human rights abuses in another country, but it never stays to rule that country. In Grenada, Haiti and Bosnia, the U.S. got in and then got out.

Moreover, when America does get into a war, it is supremely careful to avoid targeting civilians and to minimize collateral damage. Even as America bombed the Taliban infrastructure and hideouts, its planes dropped rations of food to avert hardship and starvation of Afghan civilians. What other country does these things?

10. America, the freest nation on earth, is also the most virtuous nation on earth.

This point seems counterintuitive, given the amount of conspicuous vulgarity, vice and immorality in America. Indeed, some Islamic fundamentalists argue that their regimes are morally superior to the United States because they seek to foster virtue among the citizens. Virtue, these fundamentalists argue, is a higher principle than liberty.

Indeed it is. And let us admit that in a free society, freedom will frequently be used badly. Freedom, by definition, includes the freedom to do good or evil, to act nobly or basely.

But if freedom brings out the worst in people, it also brings out the best. The millions of Americans who live decent, praiseworthy lives desire our highest admiration because they have opted for the good when the good is not the only available option. Even amidst the temptations of a rich and free society, they have remained on the straight path. Their virtue has special luster because it is freely chosen.

By contrast, the societies that many Islamic fundamentalists seek would eliminate the possibility of virtue. If the supply of virtue is insufficient in a free society like America, it is almost non-existent in an unfree society like Iran.

The reason is that coerced virtues are not virtues at all. Consider the woman who is required to wear a veil. There is no modesty in this, because she is being compelled Compulsion cannot produce virtue, it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue.

Thus, a free society like America is not merely more prosperous, more varied, more peaceful and more tolerant ? it is also morally superior to the theocratic and authoritarian regimes that America?s enemies advocate.

"To make us love our country," Edmund Burke once said, "our country ought to be lovely." Burke?s point is that we should love our country not just because it is ours, but also because it is good.

America is far from perfect, and there is lots of room for improvement. In spite of its flaws, however, the American life as it is lived today is the best life that our world has to offer. Ultimately, America is worthy of our love and sacrifice because, more than any other society, it makes possible the good life, and the life that is good.

Dinesh D'Souza's latest book, "What's So Great About America," just hit the New York Times best seller list. He is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/3/134711.shtml


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #720647 - 07/03/02 03:07 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for posting this. It's amazing that so many posters on this board who are born in America are so ignorant of it's virtues. I think it was Thomas Paine who said, "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value."

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #720891 - 07/03/02 05:19 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I feel all fuzzy inside, even with my priest in jail for violationg the american view of "corporate" religion.

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #720893 - 07/03/02 05:20 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

for life.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #721982 - 07/04/02 06:04 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Most of the above it true..I can't argue it...the one thing I can argue though is all this American prosperity is coming at a cost to the poorer, undeveloped nations. But if you don't see a problem with that, then it's not an issue is it?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (07/04/02 06:07 AM)

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722170 - 07/04/02 08:06 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono, if you can explain to me why we over here can't or won't understand the global ramifications of our prosperity, I would love to hear it.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: hongomon]
    #722261 - 07/04/02 09:20 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds good to me...Let's get down to specifics. What would you call a country that produces the highest levels of dangerous chemicals in the world but abandons key negotiations aimed at reversing global warming?
How about a country whose leader blithely announces that he is abandoning a quarter-century old arms control treaty, one the whole world understands to be the key to preventing complete nuclear madness?
And what about a government that walks out of talks to enforce the biological weapons treaty because it doesn't want international inspectors peeking at its own weapons production facilities?
That same country keeps rejecting human rights treaties, even the ones protecting the rights of children.

Sounds pretty roguish, don't you think? Iraq, maybe, or one of those other "evil-doers" like Iran or North Korea? But oops -- wrong guess. This particular rogue state would be the good ol' U.S. of A

It's hard for most people to think of the U.S as a rogue state. You're a democracy, after all...or Republic..whichever you prefer. Your elections are free and fair (well, some of the time).

But your foreign policy is far less accountable to democratic ideals, or to the global community than most like to think. The problem isn't isolationism -- you''re engaged (at least your military forces and your U.S. manufactured weapons are) all over the world. The problem is unilateralism -- your tendency to act out your unchallenged 'super-power of super-powers' role without concern for what others in the world think.

When the Bush administration came into office last year, unilateralism was suddenly on everybody's radar screen. One of the administration's first acts was to cut off U.S. support to any international family planning institutions that also might provide any separately-funded information to their patients about abortions. Then, what really caught the eye of policymakers and pundits, were Bush's rapid-fire moves to abandon the Kyoto protocol on global warming and the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) treaty.

The United States produces by far the largest amount of greenhouse gases in the world -- the stuff that is destroying the ozone layer and causing dangerous global warming. In 1998, the Clinton administration had already angered most other countries when it refused to sign on to the Kyoto agreement that aimed to roll back greenhouse gas emissions. But international talks had continued, as had efforts to get the United States on board. Until Bush took office. Then, all of a sudden, Kyoto was off Washington's agenda.

In January 2002, the Bush administration decided to rub salt into the world's wound, dissing the whole Kyoto process by announcing a separate, unilateral plan. The new plan would, coincidentally, leave current U.S. greenhouse gas levels and the resulting increase in global warming virtually unchanged...how nice for everyone else.

Then came the problem of weapons of mass destruction. In October 1999, the U.S. Senate refused to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, a long-sought effort at keeping the U.S. and Soviet nuclear genies closer to their bottles. The world was not amused. Many, especially in Europe, were outraged, seeing the rejection as the arrogance of what the French had begun calling the "hyper-power." So when Bush announced, in early 2001, that he planned to unilaterally scrap the 25-year-old ABM treaty, it wasn't only Moscow that felt betrayed. The ABM treaty had served as the focal point of strategic arms control for an entire generation. Bush's claim that it was "irrelevant" in the post-Cold War era fooled no one....or at least it shouldn't have. The only thing that had become irrelevant -- to the United States -- was international concern about the Pentagon's war drive. Your only super-power rival had collapsed more than a decade ago, but the government had no intention of changing its own aggressive behavior.

Only two countries in the world have refused to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child -- Somalia and the United States...explain that???

In the summer of 2001, the United States walked out of another international conference, this one on how to enforce the 1972 treaty prohibiting biological weapons. Everybody agreed there needed to be stronger inspections of potential sites where germ weapons could be produced -- what Washington is always accusing Iraq of hiding. But this time it wasn't the Iraqis, it was the U.S. delegation that walked out because they refused to accept international inspections of American production facilities which the United States demanded for everyone else.

On the issue of human rights, when it comes to real commitments, backed up by international agreements, Washington falls way behind. Take the Convention on the Rights of the Child. That one should be a no-brainer.

The Convention is, according to UNICEF, "the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history..." The Convention sets norms for what governments should provide for parents and their children -- adequate nutrition, compulsory primary education, adequate health care, safe access to play, art, and culture. Only two countries in the world have refused to sign on -- Somalia and the United States....hmmmmmm

Unilateralism didn't begin with the Bush administration. Several years ago, the United States antagonized much of the world, including some of your closest allies, when it refused to sign the convention banning anti-personnel landmines.

For years the world had known that the mines -- cheap, easy to use -- were responsible for far more civilian than military deaths. The campaign to prohibit them, led by civil society organizations and governments such as Canada, was based on the vast suffering of civilians, most often children, in places where low-tech, high-casualty wars were taking place, often outside CNN's camera range.

The world needed a ban -- but still today the United States refuses to sign. Why? Because the Pentagon says it needs those anti-personnel mines to protect U.S. troops. What a heartless message your powerful military is sending around the globe, specifically to the legions of landmine victims, children with missing limbs growing up in the poor, mine-infested countries of the world.

Only seven countries voted- against the International Criminal Court...care to guess who was on side with the U.S.? Those great democracies such as China, Israel, Libya, Iraq.

Then there's the International Criminal Court. The United States spent years demanding that the world create such a court to insure that those guilty of genocide or war crimes would be held accountable. When the new court was approved, delegates from 120 countries stood and cheered. Only seven countries voted against -- led by the United States at the head of the rejectionist front. Who were Washington's bedfellows? Those stalwart democracies such as China, Israel, Libya, Iraq.

As it turned out, the United States never had any intention of signing on fearful that it would expose American troops around the world to prosecution outside the U.S. justice system. It just demanded a court for the rest of the world. The world cried foul. Finally, in the last days of his presidency, just hours before the signature deadline, on December 31, 2000, lame-ass President Clinton reluctantly signed the treaty endorsing the court -- but he explicitly rejected ever presenting to the Senate for ratification. For the United States, signing the treaty was just a way of making sure it could keep on calling the shots in future negotiations.

The United States is the strongest country in the world -- economically, militarily, strategically. But that doesn't mean that you can ignore the international laws and treaties and U.N. resolutions that you demand that others obey.

Despite your power, you're still part of the international community -- you still need the U.N. and international law. You face consequences when you throw your weight around -- being kicked off the U.N. Human Rights Commission last spring was one example. After September 11th most of the world's criticism of your unilateralism and arrogance was silenced. But now you stand in danger of losing the human sympathy that followed those attacks...despite my firm belief that your own government let them happen.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (07/04/02 09:26 AM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722312 - 07/04/02 09:57 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hmmm... there's a word I'm looking for. What could it be?

Oh yes..... Waaahhhhhhhh!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #722317 - 07/04/02 10:00 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

So much for an intelligent rebuttle...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722357 - 07/04/02 10:30 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

***What would you call a country that produces the highest levels of dangerous chemicals in the world but abandons key negotiations aimed at reversing global warming?****

The Kyoto treaty was a joke and wasn't even signed by JAPAN!!! That was one of the most useless treaties i have ever seen

****How about a country whose leader blithely announces that he is abandoning a quarter-century old arms control treaty, one the whole world understands to be the key to preventing complete nuclear madness?****

The treaty was with the U.S.S.R. Unfortunatly your whole argument is moot because the U.S.S.R. doesn't exist

*****And what about a government that walks out of talks to enforce the biological weapons treaty because it doesn't want international inspectors peeking at its own weapons production facilities?*****

Perhaps national security?

****Sounds pretty roguish, don't you think?****

The only thing that is rouge is the arguments you chose to discuss which are bad to say the least.

****It's hard for most people to think of the U.S as a rogue state. You're a democracy, after all...or Republic..whichever you prefer. Your elections are free and fair (well, some of the time).****

coming from a country that is guilty until proven innocent i'll take that as a compliment

****The problem is unilateralism -- your tendency to act out your unchallenged 'super-power of super-powers' role without concern for what others in the world think.****

Unfortunatly countries like canada benefit from our status in the world

****The United States produces by far the largest amount of greenhouse gases in the world****

Wrong...the ocean produces a majority of these supposed "greenhouse gasses" not the United states...maybe we should ban oceans?

****the stuff that is destroying the ozone layer and causing dangerous global warming.****

That's why since we have been keeping records on temp. the average temp has actually dropped either a tenth of a degree or more....this argument is never discussed in the winter..i wonder why?

****Then, all of a sudden, Kyoto was off Washington's agenda. ****

GOOD!!!! see above answer...can you name the other countries that signed the Kyoto treaty? Canada didn't either

The ABM treaty was with the U.S.S.R. Do some research

***Only two countries in the world have refused to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child***

so what?

****what Washington is always accusing Iraq of hiding.****

That was part of the surrender agreement...do some research and quit your cutting and pasting arguments

/b]****On the issue of human rights, when it comes to real commitments, backed up by international agreements, Washington falls way behind. Take the Convention on the Rights of the Child. That one should be a no-brainer. *****

Whether you want to admit it or not the human rights of the United States is either the best or close to it. We have 270 million people to please and is a huge task to make sure all is treated well. I guess if i was a country like Canada with only 35 million it would be quite simple....BTW how's Canada treating the Native indians? I bet if you ask them Canada is lacking

****Despite your power, you're still part of the international community****

You're right, and we won't have treaty's that "lower the bar" and make us like other countries: innefficient, more corrupt, and socialist.

****you still need the U.N. and international law****

No..you need the U.N. because we fund a majority of it's operations. To think otherwise is just foolish. A majority of Americans (or close to it) don't trust the UN. International law cannot be made to violate our constitutionly mandated perameters. The american people will not have it and back out of the UN.

****You face consequences when you throw your weight around -- being kicked off the U.N. Human Rights Commission last spring was one example.****

Whose going to enact the consequences? The human rights commision didn't kick out the americans if you remember right. The human rights commision was made up of countries that have the worst human rights records in the world and the US opposed that decision and warned that the americans would cut funding?..how much does canada fund the UN?

***But now you stand in danger of losing the human sympathy that followed those attacks...despite my firm belief that your own government let them happen. ****

I think i can speak for a majority of americans when i say...so what?

I hate debating with people who find the need to cut and paste their whole post in the future could you get to the point in your own words?..or maybe supply a link.

I personnaly wish we were an isolationist country and we'd see how much power the UN, NATO, and other groups would be without our money and support



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (07/04/02 10:34 AM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722361 - 07/04/02 10:32 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

You're right and I was on my way back to edit it but you beat me here.

In reply to:

Sounds good to me...Let's get down to specifics. What would you call a country that produces the highest levels of dangerous chemicals in the world but abandons key negotiations aimed at reversing global warming?
How about a country whose leader blithely announces that he is abandoning a quarter-century old arms control treaty, one the whole world understands to be the key to preventing complete nuclear madness?
And what about a government that walks out of talks to enforce the biological weapons treaty because it doesn't want international inspectors peeking at its own weapons production facilities?
That same country keeps rejecting human rights treaties, even the ones protecting the rights of children.




Not in the best interests of the US. While I'd like to see us cut back on the amount of chemicals, I don't want it at the expense of either our economy or lifestyle. As new technologies are developed this will change. It is the height of foolishness to think that the world will suffer irreversible damage if we take time to come up with ways to fix the problem gradually.

That arms treaty had outlived its usefulness years ago. It was signed with the USSR which no longer exists so it was a worthless piece of paper anyway. Since Bush announced we were withdrawing, he's also announced and come to agreement on further cuts in the amount of nukes on both side anyway. If it was only the Russians that had ballistic missiles, we'd have little or no need for an ABM defense. There are counties that have missiles or are developing or buying missiles that would like nothing better than to lob one at the US. Should we sit back and wait for this to happen and then say.... Golly Gosh, we should have taken steps to prevent something like this from happening? We'd be stupid to do so.

As to the next two treaties you refer to, perhaps when the parties working on such treaties have reasonable proposals that aren't aimed at the US, they will deserve serious consideration.

I will agree with you on one point. I don't like landmines. However, having said that... if you think that all of the countries who signed on to that will suddenly stop using them, you're sadly mistaken. Banning something does not mean squat. Drugs are banned. Did they go away? Guns are banned in many countries. Did they go away?

We are the unchallenged super power whether you like it or not. There will be one for countless years to come because, sadly, one is needed. Perhaps someday your vision of utopia will come true. But neither you nor I will be here to see it. If the US was to somehow vanish tomorrow, little would change. Some other country, China perhaps, would rush right in to fill the gap. Do you suppose they would sign or honor treaties that they did sign?

Kyoto? A piece of crap if ever there was one. When a treaty gives exemptions away willy nilly, and the bulk of the cuts would come from a small handful of countries, why would we sign it?

I could go on, but I tire of arguing with someone like yourself who sees the US as the sole source of the world?s problems. Frankly if it wasn't for us you probably wouldn't have the freedom to flap your jaws as you do and I think that?s what pisses you off the most. It would be a very different world, one I doubt you'd like. Do you think if Germany had won the war you'd be allowed to speak your mind so freely? If using Germany as an example doesn't suit you, substitute the regime of your choice. The Russians perhaps? Castro maybe?

To be blunt, you strike me as someone that would piss and moan about anyone with more wealth or power than you or your country.

We elect our leaders to look out for us, not to make you happy. The world is nowhere near ready for a world government, perhaps it never will be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722376 - 07/04/02 10:41 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

And another thought.... If the US sucks so bad, don't come here. The flood of people trying to get in suggests that only the whiners such as yourself find it to be such a hideous place. How many tried to move to Canada last year? I realize that the terrorists like to come there so they can sneak across the border, but as a number how many? And then compare that to the amount of people that try to come here.

Yes we must be a horrible country indeed.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #722474 - 07/04/02 11:30 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Funny how both you get so defensive of the USA the second anyone decides to post an opinion that differs from your own in the slightest.

I will be the first to admit the US is the most powerful nation around, that's never been in dispute...but don't you think that better things can be done with the seemingly infinite resources of the U.S. than destroy the rest of the world?


The Kyoto treaty was a joke and wasn't even signed by JAPAN!!! That was one of the most useless treaties i have ever seen
What part did you disagree with?..please explain.

The treaty was with the U.S.S.R. Unfortunatly your whole argument is moot because the U.S.S.R. doesn't exist
So the fact that there is no USSR gives the USA the right to keep on mass producing nuclear weapons when it already has enough to destroy the world several times over?...how much is enough for you?

Perhaps national security?
Or the fact they are also producing Biological weapons?

Unfortunatly countries like canada benefit from our status in the world
Sadly, this is 100% true.

That's why since we have been keeping records on temp. the average temp has actually dropped either a tenth of a degree or more....this argument is never discussed in the winter..i wonder why?
Is that why the polar ice caps are melting?...are they magically defying the laws of physics?

Whether you want to admit it or not the human rights of the United States is either the best or close to it. We have 270 million people to please and is a huge task to make sure all is treated well. I guess if i was a country like Canada with only 35 million it would be quite simple....BTW how's Canada treating the Native indians? I bet if you ask them Canada is lacking
If you not worried about human rights then why not sign it?..And you are right, the treatment of our natives is appalling...but this thread is about the U.S....If you like I would be more than happy to start a thread about Canada's failings in the world community if that would make you feel better.

I personnaly wish we were an isolationist country and we'd see how much power the UN, NATO, and other groups would be without our money and support
I wonder how far the US would get without having other countries to exploit their resources...or to work in their sweat shops.

I didn't have the intention of making this an Anti-American thread, because despite all of my mis-givings of the U.S. it has done some incredible things for the world. Europe is just as guilty as the U.S. on many fronts...but Unfortunately when you are the "Big Boy on the block" you are in the spot light.

You can slam my views all you like, it won't change the fact that the U.S. is not well liked world wide, and there is a reason for it. I have nothing against Americans per se, but it's your foreign policies, and hypocritical stance on many issues that I take issue with...and to a lesser extent my own country as well.

There really is no need for either of you to get all worked up..you posted your facts of the U.S...which was mostly correct, and I posted my facts of the U.S....which are also correct.













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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722503 - 07/04/02 11:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Defensive? No. Factual? Yes.

When your facts are wrong, they need to be corrected, which we have done. As the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I need to feed myself so I'll just address the one "point" you make.

_______________________________________

Understanding polar melting

By Jack Williams, USATODAY.com


Peter West, NSF
Huge Antarctic icebergs, like the one above, are not caused by global warming, scientists say.


On the Web

Resources: Climate change science.
IPCC Working Group 1: Text of Summary for Policy Makers.
Understanding polar ice
Science in the polar regions




The idea that the polar ice caps are going to melt and flood the world some time soon is a gross oversimplification.

Except for Greenland's Ice Cap, the Arctic's ice is floating in the ocean. If it melted, it wouldn't raise sea level although it would have other effects on the world's climate.

Antarctica is more complicated. While the ice shelves around the continent, such as the Ross Ice Shelf, which is roughly the size of Texas, are floating on the ocean, huge amounts of ice cover Antarctica. If all of this ice melted it would raise global sea levels by about 200 feet. But climate scientists don't expect anything like this to happen in the next couple of centuries, if ever.

For one thing, Antarctica is so cold that even the worst possible warming isn't likely to melt its ice for centuries. Still, there are concerns about what could happen to the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, which in theory could collapse into the sea to melt.

While all scientists who study polar ice don't agree on how much is likely to melt if the world continues warming, the January 2001 report of Working Group 1 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) offers the best summary of the latest scientific thinking. This group consisted of experts from around the world and looked at the basic science of climate change.

In its Summary for Policy Makers, the working group says on Page 16 that during the 21st century:

Northern Hemisphere snow cover and sea-ice extent are projected to decrease further.
Glaciers and ice caps are projected to continue their widespread retreat during the 21st century.
The Antarctic ice sheet is likely to grain mass because of greater precipitation, while the Greenland ice sheet is likely to lose mass because the increase in runoff will exceed the precipitation increase.
Concerns have been expressed about the stability of the West Antarctic ice sheet because it is grounded below sea level. However, loss of grounded ice leading to substantial sea level rise from this source is now widely agreed to be very unlikely during the 21st century.
Global mean sea level is projected to rise by 0.09 to 0.88 meters (0.29 to 2.88 feet) between 1990 and 2100.
The report notes that projections of sea level rise are lower slightly lower than in the Working Group's 1995 report even though the 2001 report projects higher temperatures by 2100 than the 1995 report did. The reason for the lower estimate of possible sea level rise is "primarily due to the use of improved models, which give a smaller contribution from glaciers and ice sheets" than the models used for the 1995 report.

________________________________________

Sounds terrible. If we don't address this in the next week or so we will surely all die!!!

For every scientist who thinks they are "melting", you can find one that thinks that even if they are, that they probably shrink and expand all by themselves. Perhaps that is why the Antartic ice sheet is expected to expand.

Here's another:

______________________________________
Study: Warming didn't start melting
WASHINGTON, October 8, 1999 (AP) - The massive West Antarctic ice sheet may be headed for a complete meltdown in a process that a new study indicates was triggered thousands of years ago, not as a result of global warming.



Scientific questions

Drilling into the past

Sea level rise

The ice shelves

Ice's global role

Ice on the Web


As scientists have been increasingly able to document melting and the discovery of icebergs breaking off from Antarctica in recent years, concerns have risen that human-induced climate change could be damaging the Antarctic ice sheet.

But the future of the West Antarctic ice sheet "may have been predetermined when the grounding line retreat was triggered in early Holocene time," about 10,000 years ago, a team of scientists led by Howard Conway of the University of Washington reports in Friday's edition of the journal Science.

The grounding line is the boundary between floating ice and ice thick enough to reach the sea floor, and the scientists found that line has receded about 800 miles since the last ice age, withdrawing at an average of about 400 feet per year for the last 7,600 years.

"It seems like the rate (of melting) that been going since the early Holocene is similar to the rate right now," Conway said in a telephone interview. "Collapse appears to be part of an ongoing natural cycle, probably caused by rising sea level initiated by the melting of the Northern Hemisphere ice sheets at the end of the last ice age."

Continued shrinking of the ice sheet, perhaps even complete disintegration, "could well be inevitable," the report concluded.

The ice sheet's disappearance is of concern because of estimates that its complete melting could raise the global sea level by 15 to 20 feet, swamping low-lying coastal communities around the world.

At the current rate of melting, that will take about 7,000 years, the researchers estimate. Conway said the melting annually contributes about 1 millimeter - nearly one-twenty-fifth of an inch - to sea-level rise.

While the study indicates global warming is not causing the melting, climate change remains a problem, Conway said: "Global warming could well speed the process. Our study doesn't address that problem."

Environmentalists have grown concerned that industrial chemicals added to the atmosphere are trapping heat like a greenhouse, causing the Earth's temperature to increase. There is disagreement, however, about the process and how great a hazard it may pose.

Conway's report is one of three in this issue of Science focusing on the Antarctic ice sheet. In the others: Scientists studying satellite-based measurements found a complex system of tributaries feeding major rivers of ice on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet. This web of tributaries forms a transition zone between the sluggish inland ice and the swiftly moving ice streams closer to the margins.

Other researchers, using the ages of volcanic debris that erupted onto the ice sheet, reconstructed the past elevation of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet as it began to melt just after the end of the last ice age. They concluded the sheet was not the source of a massive flow of melt water into the oceans 10,000 years ago.

West Antarctica is the section of the continent south of the tip of South America. It is covered by an ice sheet that extends about 360,000 square miles close to the combined areas of Texas and Colorado.

Conway's team calculated the movement of the grounding line using evidence gathered from raised beaches and radar imaging of subsurface ice structures. The timing of start of the melting was determined by carbon-14 dating of samples found on raised beaches.

_____________________________________

Hmmm.... 7000 years! Well I'm certainly scared. Now why oh why didn't we sign that Kyoto treaty 10,000 years ago when the last ice age ended. Oh wait.... the ice has come and gone before. Maybe it was those damn cavemen.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #722523 - 07/04/02 11:58 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

So are you agreeing with the fact that global warming is indeed occurring? And if so...how much do you think the world has contributed to it in the last 100 years?...nevermind the previous 10000.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (07/04/02 12:01 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #722585 - 07/04/02 12:31 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I don't belive there is sufficient evidence to support the theory of global warming being anything other than a naturally occuring cycle. Ice ages have come and gone, so to say the earth doesn't go through periods of warming and cooling would be nonsense. To blame human beings for causing it, or even speeding it up, without evidence that at least the majority of scientisits agree to, is just foolish.

To sign on to a treaty, such as the Kyoto treaty, which would have dramatic effects on our lives and on our economy, would be stupid.

And for a direct answer to your question on how much we have contributed to this, very little or not at all. It would be the height of arrogance to assume that in 100 years we have had enough effect to substantially contribute to the factors that cause the earth to warm and cool.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #723757 - 07/04/02 09:24 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I would have to disagree that most american's have a high standard of living. I've got the impression that there were like 1 million people living in poverty. But thats not to say that america isn't a great place. Hopefully one day we can say that everyone enjoys a high standard of living - some would say this is impossible but i call it a dream


--------------------
There is always a need for intoxication: China has
opium, Islam has hashish, the West has woman."
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: stan]
    #724087 - 07/05/02 03:18 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

To blame human beings for causing it, or even speeding it up, without evidence that at least the majority of scientisits agree to, is just foolish.
You have got to be kidding me...don't even try to tell me that industrialization hasn't affected our planet for the worse. If you honestly believe what you said above then I would say that YOU are the one living in a dream world. You're views are obviously short-sighted with little or no care for future generations.

To sign on to a treaty, such as the Kyoto treaty, which would have dramatic effects on our lives and on our economy, would be stupid.
Yeah, how stupid to do something to benefit the entire planet in the long run, looks like we all dodged a bullet there huh?...whew, that was close.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (07/05/02 03:20 AM)

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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #724114 - 07/05/02 04:13 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Luvdemshrooms:
Who is the only country in the world convicted of terrorism at the World Court??
The USA, thank you, maybe Rono does have a point.

Do you not see a problem with the fact that you want everyone else in the world to be subject to laws on War Crimes except for the US??

Who blocked the last 5 UN Resolutions on Terrorism?
The US, because they cannot define terrorism without defining themselves. Granted Israel also voted against it because of the occupied territory (occupied against International Law). This also rasies the question of why did America not push Israel out of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan when they pushed Saddam out of Kuwait (the offical rationale for the removal of Iraqi troops was the fact that they had occupied a country against International Law)?
Not that pushing Saddam out of Kuwait was a bad thing (and Saddam is a butcher but also a butcher that the US endorsed for over 10 years).

How about the US's paricipation in the overthrow (in April of this year) of a democratically elected government in Venezula?
How does one justify that??

How about the US's support for the terror that has gripped Columbia for years with thousands of civilians dead??


My point is not that the US is all bad or the American people are bad. In fact, most Americans are really nice folks but there has to be a push from American citizens to change the way the executive of the US government operates and to make it more accountable. Not only to the rest of the world but to the Americans who it is supposed to represent


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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #724141 - 07/05/02 04:42 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"without evidence that at least the majority of scientisits agree to"

Re-read that part of my reply.

I do not personally have the scientific knowledge to know for sure. Among those who do (scientists) there is wide disagreement. I have read too much hype from "enviromentalists" to just take their word for it, as you seem so willing to do.

As for the treaty. You claim it would benefit the entire planet in the long run.... Do you have a crystal ball? Or perhaps space aliens came down and told you we are doomed?

Evidence is what we need, not theory. If agreement is reached.... fine, I'll believe it.

This does not mean I think we should do nothing. Less pollution is obviously a good thing. Better mileage for cars is a good thing. Less trash is a good thing. But.... to expect the world and the US to just say OK, we'll slash emmisions and who gives a fuck about the economy is.... stupid.

Try reading my responses in more depth. You seem to focus on the points which annoy you and as a result you only get half the point I'm attempting to make.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #724233 - 07/05/02 06:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

the one thing I can argue though is all this American prosperity is coming at a cost to the poorer, undeveloped nations.

How so? Are Americans coming with ships to haul the citizens back to America to work in factories? Are they invading these countries and hauling off tons of iron ore in the holds of troop transports? Please explain precisely HOW America's prosperity comes at the expense of developing nations.

Exactly which actions does America take which prevents these nations from bettering themselves, other than providing billions of dollars in outright aid and "loans" which will never be paid back, and sending technical experts to teach agricultural techniques, build hydro dams, undertake mass inoculations against disease, etc.

pinky


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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #724243 - 07/05/02 06:53 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

What would you call a country that produces the highest levels of dangerous chemicals in the world...

The Soviet Union.

As a side issue, I understand you are Canadian, Rono. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Are YOU aware that the Canadian government has tacitly admitted that even though it signed the Kyoto accords, it has absolutely NO freaking idea how it can meet the guidelines it agreed to?

Actually ALL the industrialized nations who were signatories are in the same boat. NONE of them will be in compliance. Maybe this is why Australia and Japan have withdrawn from the accord. They won't be the last.

Many, especially in Europe, were outraged, seeing the rejection as the arrogance of what the French had begun calling the "hyper-power."

Am I the only one reading this who finds the thought of the French referring to someone else as "arrogant" amusing? As a side note, France derives more of its energy needs from nuclear power than any other country. It has long been suspected in many circcles that the French are a tad cavalier about accounting for all their nuclear materials, as well.

The Convention sets norms for what governments should provide for parents and their children -- adequate nutrition, compulsory primary education, adequate health care, safe access to play, art, and culture.

The US probably walked out because those "norms" are socialist. The GOVERNMENT should provide food for kids? What about the parents? The GOVERNMENT should provide ART and CULTURE for kids? Oh, please! If the schools and parents are incapable of organizing field trips to museums and ballets, why should there be yet another government agency (funded by taxpayer dollars) to do so?



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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #725975 - 07/06/02 05:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

PinkSharkMark:
Just based on what you have written I seriously doubt that your real location is the Domincan Republic. The examples of the US prosperity coming at a cost to the poorer nations and people of the world are so wide spread that it is almost mind boggling that you would argue against that.
Was the removal of the Sandanista's for the good of the people? NO
How about the the military aid that is currently flowing to Columbia is that for the betterment of the people? NO
How about the overthrow of the Allende government in 1973 in Chile, was that to improve the situation for the people of Chile?? NO
Why is America currently in Afghanistan, for the good of the people? No, it's about oil
In a previous post I mentioned that the US has been linked to an attempted coup in Venezuela (of a democratically elected government) was this for the good of the people? No, again about oil (Venezuela is the worlds 4th largest producer)...
How about US support for death squads in much of Central America and the installation of dictatorships which are friendly to US corporate interests?? Was this for the people too??

You get the point!! And no the US does not haul people off to work in their factories. INstead they push policies through the IMF and World Bank that marginalizes labor. They destroy worker's co-operatives and in some places like Columbia they arm and train forces that kill trade unionist. WHy would you need to haul them off if the are getting paid 11 cents an hour to produce textiles or bananas for Western markets (including Canada). The mantra of the West is still profits over people! I would like to point out that the US is not the only country who are involved in these activities (most of the Industrialized nations are as well) but the US is by far the most powerful....
Alot of your "aid" is used to fund the military which suppresses and kills social activists in countries like Columbia (of course the US says that it is for the war on drugs, in reality it is for the war against people). The head of the DEA has said that the FARC in Columbia cannot be linked to the drug trade and that the military and paramilitary are responsible for about 80-85% of the drug trade in Columbia. Guess where you aid $$'s are going, that's right to the military and paramilitary who are using the money to fight organizations which oppose the dictatorship and the government sponsored murder (social activists and human rights advocates are murdered there every day and these murders are linked to the paramilitary and military).

Anymore questions??


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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #726057 - 07/06/02 06:44 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Now this is going to get people worked up!

lol

.....while we're on the subject I found this in the letters to the editor archive which was sent to the Sydney Morning Herald.......

from Bob Hall of (funnily enough) Wyoming, NSW....

'With the Germans it was: "Don't mention the war."

With the Americans it's: "Don't mention Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Grenada, Haiti, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Dominican Republic."

And that's only up to about 1998.'

......dem's fightin' words i guess huh! sorry but i couldn't resist......




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(zhukov in a previous life....)

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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ruskifile]
    #726113 - 07/06/02 07:32 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

how true ruskifile.. how true, and that is a conservative list...
Indonesia, Congo, El Salvador, Argentina, .......


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #726696 - 07/06/02 02:46 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

soon to be added... Afghanistan....


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (07/06/02 02:47 PM)

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #726700 - 07/06/02 02:48 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I got to say, ruskifile, politkill, and rono, these are some innane posts. How can you comment that the u.s. has anything to do with these countries disparity and war.

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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ruskifile]
    #727200 - 07/06/02 06:39 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, all those 3rd world countries really showed us. i guess thats why were still the most powerful country in the world, huh?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: htownkid28]
    #727219 - 07/06/02 06:48 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

htownkid, you obviously don't have a clue...no-one is arguing Americas military might, they've proven themselves over and over again against 3rd world countries. The argument is what exactly were they doing there in the first place....


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Anonymous

Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #727225 - 07/06/02 06:51 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

The argument is what exactly were they doing there in the first place....

Empire.

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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #727292 - 07/06/02 07:41 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

well, rono, i can certainly see where you're coming from on some of these topics. and, yes, i agree that perhaps we had no business being in alot of those countries. i'm not saying this country has never made any mistakes, but i think the picture you are painting of the US is one of an empire whose only goal is to control the world at the expense of destroying the environment and enslaving the citizens of the less fortunate and underdeveloped countries of the world.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #728336 - 07/07/02 04:18 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

politikill writes:

I seriously doubt that your real location is the Domincan Republic.

Doubt all you want. Nonetheless, it is a fact I escaped from Canada in early 1988 and moved to Cabarete, a (then) tiny village on the north coast of the Dominican Republic which was rapidly gaining an international reputation for its perfect windsurfing conditions.

Thousands of windsurfers and tourists know me as "Pink Shark Mark" or "Pinky". I've had my photo in three windsurfing magazines, and my ex-business has been photographed and described in at least five others. I have competed in several PWA-sanctioned windsurfing competitions (albeit registered under my real name). There is an enormous billboard on the way into Cabarete with a photo of me racing (you can read the sail number and easily identify my beard and ponytail) that was originally published in an American windsurfing magazine.

I'm real, and I live in the Dominican Republic. I've been here for fourteen and a half years, am a VERY well-known local "legend", considered one of the "pioneers" and given credit as one of the very first who promoted Cabarete to the point where it is one of the most popular windsurfing destinations in the world. I have no plans to leave.

The examples of the US prosperity coming at a cost to the poorer nations and people of the world are so wide spread that it is almost mind boggling that you would argue against that.

The examples you then proceed to list have exactly ZERO to do with US PROSPERITY. For example...

Was the removal of the Sandanista's for the good of the people?

And what US prosperity came of it? How big a trading partner was gained? Does the US have access to any more bananas now than they did before? As an interesting side note, it was the PEOPLE who removed Daniel Ortega and the Sandanistas in a FREE ELECTION, electing Violetta Chamorro in one of the most closely scrutinized elections in the history of Latin America. There were almost more international observers there than voters. There was absolutely ZERO hanky-panky at the ballot boxes.

Yet the PEOPLE rejected (overwhelmingly) their supposed saviors, the Sandinistas. Odd how the Lefties seem never to mention this when discussing Central American politics. I guess to a Leftie, free elections only count if the Socialists win. If they lose, then somehow the US MUST have "rigged" or "influenced" the election.

How about the the military aid that is currently flowing to Columbia is that for the betterment of the people?

How big a trading partner is Columbia? What have you ever bought that was made in Columbia other than cocaine and coffee? Note that BOTH these products were freely available long before US intervention became obtrusive. Please explain how US intervention in Columbia has made the US more PROSPEROUS. I submit the REVERSE is true... the vast amounts of money spent by the DEA in the war against the cocaneros come from tax dollars, after all.

How about the overthrow of the Allende government in 1973 in Chile, was that to improve the situation for the people of Chile??

And how large a trading partner is Chile? What products and/or resources currently obtained from Chile were unavailable to the US pre - 1973? Answer -- none. Please explain how the overthrow of Allende increased US PROSPERITY.

Why is America currently in Afghanistan, for the good of the people?

America entered Afghanistan to attempt to capture members of Al-Quaeda. If Bin Laden and the boys had been hiding out in Yemen or in the Sudan, there would have been no American military action in Afghanistan. The US remains there today (as do troops from numerous other countries) as part of a UN-sponsored attempt to stabilize the new Afghani government.

No need to continue... I think you get my point.

Rono's assertion that the US gets involved in these trouble spots in order to "increase US prosperity" is simply false. That's not to say that they SHOULD get involved in these situations... many rational arguments can be made for US isolationism. I only point out that the US doesn't undertake these actions in order to increase US prosperity.

INstead they push policies through the IMF and World Bank that marginalizes labor...

As you point out later in your post, the US is often not the prime mover in these cases, and NEVER the sole participant.

WHy would you need to haul them off if the are getting paid 11 cents an hour to produce textiles or bananas for Western markets (including Canada).

Thank goodness there ARE Western markets for these products, or the people would be, in most cases, unemployed. It is a sad fact of life that for a very large segment of the population of the Third World, life as a "subsistence-wage" laborer is by far the best alternative of the few available.

Let me ask you a question. If the factories and plantations paying "eleven cents an hour" didn't exist, in other words if the corporations involved became ashamed of exploiting the people and closed up shop, what would those ex-workers do to keep themselves and their families alive?

This just happened in the Dominican Republic. Our beloved new President is a buffoon with no understanding of economics whatsoever. His absurd policy changes and new legislation of the industrial "free zones" has led to the closing of plants of a dozen different corporations (of which only two were American, by the way). Eight thousand workers are now unemployed, another estimated fourteen thousand people who made their livings from these workers are now also penniless. Note the ratio involved here -- even though these so-called "exploited workers" were purportedly receiving "subsistence wages", they still had enough disposable income to be the sole source of revenue for another group 1.57 times as large. This is after feeding themselves and their families, and I can assure you Dominicans have LARGE families.

Alot of your "aid" is used to fund the military...

Perhaps. Most of it isn't. Certainly the specific instances I mentioned have nothing to do with military. Do you deny the existence of the projects I mentioned?

For what it's worth I oppose foreign aid (except perhaps for ACTUAL loans secured with REAL collateral) for pretty much the same reasons you mention -- too much of the money ends up in the wrong hands. This is true even of shipments of food and medicines. The warlords intercept it all, the people get nothing. So, my opposition of foreign aid gives you another reason to think me a monster, I guess.

To sum up -- should the US be involved to the extent they are in the affairs of other nations? Probably not. Is the motivation for their involvement to INCREASE US PROSPERITY? Certainly not.

pinky


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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ruskifile]
    #728480 - 07/07/02 06:00 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

ruskifile writes:

With the Americans it's: "Don't mention Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Grenada, Haiti, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Dominican Republic."

The writer has a fairly broad definition of "war". What was the reason for including Cuba, Haiti, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Bosnia, and the Dominican Republic in his list?

Also note that Germany INITIATED their wars. The US initiated none of the conflicts on his list. Not one.

As for their actions in the Dominican Republic, let me quote an earlier post of mine. I tried to merely link it, but it appears the "URL" button in the post composing screen is not working properly today.

I live in the Dominican Republic, and am quite familiar with its history. The US was not overthrowing a parliamentary government (as Chomsky claims). Quite the reverse. Juan Bosch had been democratically elected president in 1962 but was felled by a military coup. A series of short-lived "provisional governments" (read military juntas seizing power from one another) traded places while civil war broke out. In 1965, President Lyndon Johnson sent the Marines to stop the fighting and ensure that UN supervised elections could be held. A second democratic election was held in 1966 and Joaqu?n Balaguer was elected president in what was probably one of the most scrupulously supervised elections ever held in Latin America.

Hardly a war. The Dominican people LOVE the Americans, and are grateful for their assistance. It makes me furious to see, time after time, in post after post by credulous cretins who post here, this blatant misrepresentation of what really took place. It is easily checked, yet such is the power of the Great God Chomsky that people never bother to do so. "If Noam said it is so, then it MUST be so." I have no idea why he thinks he can get away with it... there are dozens and dozens of sites on the web which tell the real story.

pinky



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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728560 - 07/07/02 07:01 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

If you really live in DR my apologies, as for your responses to my statements, they are weak.
Yes, the Sandanista's were voted out of power however after years of US sponsored terror which resulted in the deaths of thousands of Nicaraguan's. The US also slapped a economic embargo on Nicaragua punishing it for forging it's own economic and political destiny. Ever heard of something called the IRan-Contra scandal?
The US was arming and training the Contra's (with taxpayers money) most of whom were part of the old Nicaraguan Guard under the Somoza regime. Many with a long history of human rights abuses. THey were trained at the School of the America's in Fort Bening, GA. The Sandanistas took the US to the World COurt on charges of International terrorism, as it is against international law to fund or arm military groups in another country with the intent of toppling the government. The US lost in the World Court on a vote of 15-2, they had been convicted of international terrorism and had violated international law.
The US continued its crusade against the Sandanista's in violation of international law and funded and armed the Contra often using military bases in El Salvador. TO give you an idea of how bad it got the Reagan administration also broke US congressional law too. Congress had voted (something called the Boland admendment (sp??) that the US could only give the Contra's non-lethal aid such as medical and that is it. So they started selling guns to Iran and funneling the money through the the National Security Council (Oliver North) and back out to the Contra's. They have also been implicated in the drugs for guns deals that went on as well. The Contra's are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in Nicaragua the vast majority of the dead were civilians, the number of human rights abuses linked to them are also well in the thousands...

You ask me how big of a trading partner is Columbia?? Let me answer your question with a question, I ask you how big of a trading partner was Vietnam in the mid 60's??? Get my point, the US sent thousands to their deaths in Vietnam, a country that you would now tell me was "not a big trading parnter" and therefore not worthy of examining US foreign policy towards it. Oil is the interest that the US has in Venezuela and Columbia, check out the recent history in Venezuela very interesting. Not to mention that vast amounts of Narco dollars flow through the US banking system everyday but I digress, the point here is that:
1) The US does have interests in countries such as Columbia, hundreds of thousands of $$ come out of that country every day to the multinational corps who have oil interests. In Venezuela, the President was warned several days before the coup by a Chief at OPEC that a coup might be staged on APril 11th, the actual day of the coup. One of the directive of the coup was to denationalize the state oil company (PDVSA) leaving it in the hands of a US firm linked back to the Bush family.
President Chavez says: "I have written proof of the time of the entries and exits of 2 US military officers into the headquarters of the coup plotters- their names whom they met with... proof on video and on still photographs"
2) Ever heard of "the Threat of a Good Example", this is the reason the US was in Vietnam, not because it was a big trading partner, it's summed up here by Noam Chomsky:
The threat of a good example
No country is exempt from this treatment, no matter how unimportant. In fact, it's the weakest, poorest countries that often arouse the greatest hysteria.
Take Laos in the 1960s, probably the poorest country in the world. Most of the people who lived there didn't even know there was such a thing as Laos; they just knew they had a little village and there was another little village nearby.

But as soon as a very low-level social revolution began to develop there, Washington subjected Laos to a murderous "secret bombing," virtually wiping out large settled areas in operations that, it was conceded, had nothing to do with the war the US was waging in South Vietnam.

Grenada has a hundred thousand people who produce a little nutmeg, and you could hardly find it on a map. But when Grenada began to undergo a mild social revolution, Washington quickly moved to destroy the threat.

From the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 till the collapse of the Communist governments in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s, it was possible to justify every US attack as a defense against the Soviet threat. So when the United States invaded Grenada in 1983, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff explained that, in the event of a Soviet attack on Western Europe, a hostile Grenada could interdict oil supplies from the Caribbean to Western Europe and we wouldn't be able to defend our beleaguered allies. Now this sounds comical, but that kind of story helps mobilize public support for aggression, terror and subversion.

The attack against Nicaragua was justified by the claim that if we don't stop "them" there, they'll be pouring across the border at Harlingen, Texas -- just two days' drive away. (For educated people, there were more sophisticated variants, just about as plausible.)

As far as American business is concerned, Nicaragua could disappear and nobody would notice. The same is true of El Salvador. But both have been subjected to murderous assaults by the US, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and many billions of dollars.

There's a reason for that. The weaker and poorer a country is, the more dangerous it is as an example. If a tiny, poor country like Grenada can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place that has more resources will ask, "why not us?"

This was even true in Indochina, which is pretty big and has some significant resources. Although Eisenhower and his advisers ranted a lot about the rice and tin and rubber, the real fear was that if the people of Indochina achieved independence and justice, the people of Thailand would emulate it, and if that worked, they'd try it in Malsya, and pretty soon Indonesia would pursue an independent path, and by then a significant area of the Grand Area would have been lost.

If you want a global system that's subordinated to the needs of US investors, you can't let pieces of it wander off. It's striking how clearly this is stated in the documentary record -- even in the public record at times. Take Chile under Allende.

Chile is a fairly big place, with a lot of natural resources, but again, the United States wasn't going to collapse if Chile became independent. Why were we so concerned about it? According to Kissinger, Chile was a "virus" that would "infect" the region with effects all the way to Italy.

US planners from Secretary of State Dean Acheson in the late 1940s to the present have warned that "one rotten apple can spoil the barrel." The danger is that the "rot" -- social and economic development -- may spread.

This "rotten apple theory" is called the domino theory for public consumption. The version used to frighten the public has Ho Chi Minh getting in a canoe and landing in California, and so on. Maybe some US leaders believe this nonsense -- it's possible -- but rational planners certainly don't. They understand that the real threat is the "good example."

Sometimes the point is explained with great clarity. When the US was planning to overthrow Guatemalan democracy in 1954, a State Department official pointed out that "Guatemala has become an increasing threat to the stability of Honduras and El Salvador. Its agrarian reform is a powerful propaganda weapon; its broad social program of aiding the workers and peasants in a victorious struggle against the upper classes and large foreign enterprises has a strong appeal to the populations of Central American neighbors where similar conditions prevail."

In other words, what the US wants is "stability," meaning security for the "upper classes and large foreign enterprises." If that can be achieved with formal democratic devices, OK. If not, the "threat to stability" posed by a good example has to be destroyed before the virus infects others.

That's why even the tiniest speck poses such a threat, and may have to be crushed.

Well I have already said way too much, later
Politikill


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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728566 - 07/07/02 07:08 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry, I had to use Chomsky just too piss you off but there are hundreds of Univeristy professors that have similar sentiments about US foreign policy...

You are trying to tell me that the US did not intiate the Vietnam war, excuse me but I don't seem to remember the Viet Cong landing on US shores .... That is a fucking joke, not even worthy of a response!!!!!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #728745 - 07/07/02 08:42 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

politikill writes:

You are trying to tell me that the US did not intiate the Vietnam war, excuse me but I don't seem to remember the Viet Cong landing on US shores ....

I don't seem to remember Nazis landing on US shores either. Does that mean the US started World War II?

That is a fucking joke, not even worthy of a response!!!!!

I'm not TRYING to tell you, I AM telling you: the US didn't INITIATE the Viet Nam war. If you must trace it back to a single cause (virtually impossible) one can consider the French occupation of Viet Nam (then called Indochina) the main cause.

The US originally got involved at the request of the government of France. The first US troops were there to teach the French how to pilot helicopters. These helicopters were to be used for medical evacuations only, of course. These US troops were non-combatants.

The CBC in Canada aired many years ago a superb multipart documentary called "The Ten Thousand Day War" which was later published as a book (or series of books, I can't recall now). It is just one of MANY histories of the war in which is explained quite thoroughly, in great detail, by dispassionate historians, the roots and major events of what eventually became commonly known as the Viet Nam war.

As I have stated on numerous occasions in this forum in the past, and undoubtedly will many times more, I was vehemently opposed to US involvement in Viet Nam. I demonstrated against it, was arrested and spent the night in jail (twice) for participating in some demonstrations that got a little unruly. In my opinion, the US should have gotten out of that horror LONG before they did.

But having said that, even I and the other people who attended the rallies were all very much aware the US didn't START the war. Even the stone potheads who were just in it for the dope and the chicks knew that. We just wanted them OUT.

You can wax indignant all you want, and refuse to respond all you want, but facts are facts. The US did not START the Viet Nam war.

pinky


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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728852 - 07/07/02 09:24 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, the French were a part of the history of the region and occupied all of Vietnam by 1884. After Vietnam was "granted" it's freedom France stayed and occupied until 1954 when a they were pushed out of the North by Ho Chi Minh. At this point US military aid to the South skyrocketed where the US also had sponsored the murder of the South Vietnamese leader (Diem) and quickly installed their boy (Thieu). The US was heavily involved in intelligence operations with the CIA murdering scores of "political dissidents".

The point here is that regardless of whether it is France, the US, Russia or Canada makes no difference. Vietnam has a right to political self-determination, regardless of whether it's political ideology is considered "desirable" or not.

i have still yet to see how Vietnam brought this was upon itself... It was a war against the people of Vietnam, one of the principle reasons it failed.


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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728874 - 07/07/02 09:33 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I guy I met, did'nt like the Dominican Republic at all, in fact most of his family moved to Puerto Rico, and he continue to move to the Mexico, then California, and finally ended up on the east coast washing dishes, this is where I met him. His english was'n the greatest, so a discussion like you suggest you have done with native Dominicans, never took place between me and him. Thas all I have to say about the Dominican.

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #728887 - 07/07/02 09:41 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I can't help but feel that using history as a intuition, France, Spain, and England, like fighting brothers fought, and helped each other claim the "Grand Arena" the Sina Area is very important, rich in minerals, Iron for shipbuilding , Superphosphurus in the soil, which means extradornary farming, which the U.s. actually exports from the Phillipinnes. If we did'nt have Sina, then japan would, or China, and we would be insecure.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #728967 - 07/07/02 10:23 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

no offense but what do your last 2 posts have to do with anything?


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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #728993 - 07/07/02 10:37 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

no offense, but why are you a dumb fucker?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #729048 - 07/07/02 10:56 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Why Nugs.... feeling a bit testy today? Or are you just upset that your posts and replies suck so bad?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #729056 - 07/07/02 10:58 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, I guess I lose my temper sometimes,, but is obviosu invertigo did'nt even read through the post, otherwise he would have seen the relevance.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #729697 - 07/07/02 04:24 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

****but is obviosu invertigo did'nt even read through the post, otherwise he would have seen the relevance. *****

I did read through the other post and your comments are still of no relavence....fool


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (07/08/02 03:15 AM)

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #730378 - 07/07/02 10:35 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Nugs, I have to go with Innvertigo again. Rarely has any of your replies had relevance to just about anything.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #735707 - 07/10/02 05:30 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

politikill writes:

If you really live in DR my apologies...

Accepted.

Yes, the Sandanista's were voted out of power however after years of US sponsored terror which resulted in the deaths of thousands of Nicaraguan's.

Odd how none of these deaths are ever attributed to Sandanistas, despite copious documentary proof that such deaths did occur. Civil wars are a bloody business, and I know of none in which the hands of both sides are scrupulously clean.

So your contention is that, after the fighting was over and Ortega and his Sandanistas were firmly in control, they were immediately voted out of power solely because the populace feared US reprisals if they were to vote to legitimize the Sandistas' seizure of power? Interesting. Hardly provable, but interesting. As I said, I guess an election -- the "will of the people" -- only counts if "the people" vote as the Lefties feel they should. Otherwise it is invalid.

...it is against international law to fund or arm military groups in another country with the intent of toppling the government.

So it is forbidden to assist a populace from freeing themselves by any means other than direct invasion? In other words, no matter how big a monster you are, once you seize power you are safe? Interesting. Perhaps this rule of the international court was the reason such butchers as Pol Pot, Stalin, Trujillo, Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier and their ilk felt free to rape their own subjects at will.

I ask you how big of a trading partner was Vietnam in the mid 60's???

Pretty small. That's precisely my point. The US gets involved in these conflicts NOT for monetary gain, but for other reasons. Do I agree that these other reasons justify US involvement? Nope. I've said here before and I'll repeat it now that the US had no business being in most (arguably any) of those places in the first place. But the US DID NOT get involved in these conflicts in order to INCREASE US PROSPERITY. That's all I am saying, and I admit I am more than a little baffled why you have such a hard time grasping my point. Let me repeat it in boldface, maybe that will help --

The US did not get involved in foreign conflicts to increase the prosperity of the US !!!

...it's summed up here by Noam Chomsky:

I haven't the patience to separate the wheat from the chaff in one of Chomsky's typical smorgasbords of innuendo, distortion, slanting, and outright fabrication. There's no need for me to debunk Chomsky at length in this post. Others have done a better job of it already.

http://www.leftwatch.com/FAQ/People/noam_chomsky.html

However, even IF we accept Chomsky's screed at face value (which I don't), what is he saying? That the US got involved in these conflicts because the US government of the time felt it was critical to halt the spread of Communism. Not to increase US prosperity.

pinky


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Offlinefrancisco
Richman Sporeman
Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 133
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #753376 - 07/17/02 10:55 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for a wonderful post.


--------------------
Well...Maybe just a little.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: francisco]
    #753402 - 07/17/02 11:07 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinericyjo
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/22/02
Posts: 1,516
Loc: -53.121600, 73.763943
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Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #771143 - 07/23/02 04:27 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Were still in the fucking dark ages...
A couple thousand years from now, (if were still around) people
will undoubtedly look back to this time period and agree how fucked up we all are... suddenly the methods of societal construction depicted in all those freaky books like "1984" and "Brave New World" don't seem like such bad ideas after all. Ahhh cloning and psychology will save us all....

3...2...1... peace!

ricyjo


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"Re-examine all that you have been told...
dismiss that which insults your soul." -Walt Whitman

Edited by ricyjo (07/23/02 11:14 PM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ricyjo]
    #771187 - 07/23/02 04:46 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

what in the hell did you just say?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ricyjo]
    #772021 - 07/23/02 10:41 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

A couple thousand years from now, (if were still around) our predecessors will undoubtedly look back to this time period and say look how fucked up they all were




Unlikely, since our predecessors are dead seeing as they came before us, not after.

In reply to:

suddenly the methods of societal construction depicted in all those freaky books like "1984" and "Brave New World" don't seem like such bad ideas after all.




I hope not.

In reply to:

Ahhh cloning and psychology will save us all..




Sure they will.... sure.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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