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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #724233 - 07/05/02 06:35 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Rono writes:

the one thing I can argue though is all this American prosperity is coming at a cost to the poorer, undeveloped nations.

How so? Are Americans coming with ships to haul the citizens back to America to work in factories? Are they invading these countries and hauling off tons of iron ore in the holds of troop transports? Please explain precisely HOW America's prosperity comes at the expense of developing nations.

Exactly which actions does America take which prevents these nations from bettering themselves, other than providing billions of dollars in outright aid and "loans" which will never be paid back, and sending technical experts to teach agricultural techniques, build hydro dams, undertake mass inoculations against disease, etc.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #724243 - 07/05/02 06:53 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Rono writes:

What would you call a country that produces the highest levels of dangerous chemicals in the world...

The Soviet Union.

As a side issue, I understand you are Canadian, Rono. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Are YOU aware that the Canadian government has tacitly admitted that even though it signed the Kyoto accords, it has absolutely NO freaking idea how it can meet the guidelines it agreed to?

Actually ALL the industrialized nations who were signatories are in the same boat. NONE of them will be in compliance. Maybe this is why Australia and Japan have withdrawn from the accord. They won't be the last.

Many, especially in Europe, were outraged, seeing the rejection as the arrogance of what the French had begun calling the "hyper-power."

Am I the only one reading this who finds the thought of the French referring to someone else as "arrogant" amusing? As a side note, France derives more of its energy needs from nuclear power than any other country. It has long been suspected in many circcles that the French are a tad cavalier about accounting for all their nuclear materials, as well.

The Convention sets norms for what governments should provide for parents and their children -- adequate nutrition, compulsory primary education, adequate health care, safe access to play, art, and culture.

The US probably walked out because those "norms" are socialist. The GOVERNMENT should provide food for kids? What about the parents? The GOVERNMENT should provide ART and CULTURE for kids? Oh, please! If the schools and parents are incapable of organizing field trips to museums and ballets, why should there be yet another government agency (funded by taxpayer dollars) to do so?



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Offlinepolitikill
journeyman

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 72
Loc: THC, Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #725975 - 07/06/02 05:35 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

PinkSharkMark:
Just based on what you have written I seriously doubt that your real location is the Domincan Republic. The examples of the US prosperity coming at a cost to the poorer nations and people of the world are so wide spread that it is almost mind boggling that you would argue against that.
Was the removal of the Sandanista's for the good of the people? NO
How about the the military aid that is currently flowing to Columbia is that for the betterment of the people? NO
How about the overthrow of the Allende government in 1973 in Chile, was that to improve the situation for the people of Chile?? NO
Why is America currently in Afghanistan, for the good of the people? No, it's about oil
In a previous post I mentioned that the US has been linked to an attempted coup in Venezuela (of a democratically elected government) was this for the good of the people? No, again about oil (Venezuela is the worlds 4th largest producer)...
How about US support for death squads in much of Central America and the installation of dictatorships which are friendly to US corporate interests?? Was this for the people too??

You get the point!! And no the US does not haul people off to work in their factories. INstead they push policies through the IMF and World Bank that marginalizes labor. They destroy worker's co-operatives and in some places like Columbia they arm and train forces that kill trade unionist. WHy would you need to haul them off if the are getting paid 11 cents an hour to produce textiles or bananas for Western markets (including Canada). The mantra of the West is still profits over people! I would like to point out that the US is not the only country who are involved in these activities (most of the Industrialized nations are as well) but the US is by far the most powerful....
Alot of your "aid" is used to fund the military which suppresses and kills social activists in countries like Columbia (of course the US says that it is for the war on drugs, in reality it is for the war against people). The head of the DEA has said that the FARC in Columbia cannot be linked to the drug trade and that the military and paramilitary are responsible for about 80-85% of the drug trade in Columbia. Guess where you aid $$'s are going, that's right to the military and paramilitary who are using the money to fight organizations which oppose the dictatorship and the government sponsored murder (social activists and human rights advocates are murdered there every day and these murders are linked to the paramilitary and military).

Anymore questions??


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Offlineruskifile
droog

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 258
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #726057 - 07/06/02 06:44 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Now this is going to get people worked up!

lol

.....while we're on the subject I found this in the letters to the editor archive which was sent to the Sydney Morning Herald.......

from Bob Hall of (funnily enough) Wyoming, NSW....

'With the Germans it was: "Don't mention the war."

With the Americans it's: "Don't mention Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Grenada, Haiti, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Dominican Republic."

And that's only up to about 1998.'

......dem's fightin' words i guess huh! sorry but i couldn't resist......




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(zhukov in a previous life....)

2SER FM underground radio

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Offlinepolitikill
journeyman

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 72
Loc: THC, Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ruskifile]
    #726113 - 07/06/02 07:32 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

how true ruskifile.. how true, and that is a conservative list...
Indonesia, Congo, El Salvador, Argentina, .......


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 19 days
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #726696 - 07/06/02 02:46 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

soon to be added... Afghanistan....


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (07/06/02 02:47 PM)

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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #726700 - 07/06/02 02:48 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I got to say, ruskifile, politkill, and rono, these are some innane posts. How can you comment that the u.s. has anything to do with these countries disparity and war.

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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ruskifile]
    #727200 - 07/06/02 06:39 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, all those 3rd world countries really showed us. i guess thats why were still the most powerful country in the world, huh?


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 19 days
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: htownkid28]
    #727219 - 07/06/02 06:48 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

htownkid, you obviously don't have a clue...no-one is arguing Americas military might, they've proven themselves over and over again against 3rd world countries. The argument is what exactly were they doing there in the first place....


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Anonymous

Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #727225 - 07/06/02 06:51 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The argument is what exactly were they doing there in the first place....

Empire.

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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Rono]
    #727292 - 07/06/02 07:41 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

well, rono, i can certainly see where you're coming from on some of these topics. and, yes, i agree that perhaps we had no business being in alot of those countries. i'm not saying this country has never made any mistakes, but i think the picture you are painting of the US is one of an empire whose only goal is to control the world at the expense of destroying the environment and enslaving the citizens of the less fortunate and underdeveloped countries of the world.


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #728336 - 07/07/02 04:18 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

politikill writes:

I seriously doubt that your real location is the Domincan Republic.

Doubt all you want. Nonetheless, it is a fact I escaped from Canada in early 1988 and moved to Cabarete, a (then) tiny village on the north coast of the Dominican Republic which was rapidly gaining an international reputation for its perfect windsurfing conditions.

Thousands of windsurfers and tourists know me as "Pink Shark Mark" or "Pinky". I've had my photo in three windsurfing magazines, and my ex-business has been photographed and described in at least five others. I have competed in several PWA-sanctioned windsurfing competitions (albeit registered under my real name). There is an enormous billboard on the way into Cabarete with a photo of me racing (you can read the sail number and easily identify my beard and ponytail) that was originally published in an American windsurfing magazine.

I'm real, and I live in the Dominican Republic. I've been here for fourteen and a half years, am a VERY well-known local "legend", considered one of the "pioneers" and given credit as one of the very first who promoted Cabarete to the point where it is one of the most popular windsurfing destinations in the world. I have no plans to leave.

The examples of the US prosperity coming at a cost to the poorer nations and people of the world are so wide spread that it is almost mind boggling that you would argue against that.

The examples you then proceed to list have exactly ZERO to do with US PROSPERITY. For example...

Was the removal of the Sandanista's for the good of the people?

And what US prosperity came of it? How big a trading partner was gained? Does the US have access to any more bananas now than they did before? As an interesting side note, it was the PEOPLE who removed Daniel Ortega and the Sandanistas in a FREE ELECTION, electing Violetta Chamorro in one of the most closely scrutinized elections in the history of Latin America. There were almost more international observers there than voters. There was absolutely ZERO hanky-panky at the ballot boxes.

Yet the PEOPLE rejected (overwhelmingly) their supposed saviors, the Sandinistas. Odd how the Lefties seem never to mention this when discussing Central American politics. I guess to a Leftie, free elections only count if the Socialists win. If they lose, then somehow the US MUST have "rigged" or "influenced" the election.

How about the the military aid that is currently flowing to Columbia is that for the betterment of the people?

How big a trading partner is Columbia? What have you ever bought that was made in Columbia other than cocaine and coffee? Note that BOTH these products were freely available long before US intervention became obtrusive. Please explain how US intervention in Columbia has made the US more PROSPEROUS. I submit the REVERSE is true... the vast amounts of money spent by the DEA in the war against the cocaneros come from tax dollars, after all.

How about the overthrow of the Allende government in 1973 in Chile, was that to improve the situation for the people of Chile??

And how large a trading partner is Chile? What products and/or resources currently obtained from Chile were unavailable to the US pre - 1973? Answer -- none. Please explain how the overthrow of Allende increased US PROSPERITY.

Why is America currently in Afghanistan, for the good of the people?

America entered Afghanistan to attempt to capture members of Al-Quaeda. If Bin Laden and the boys had been hiding out in Yemen or in the Sudan, there would have been no American military action in Afghanistan. The US remains there today (as do troops from numerous other countries) as part of a UN-sponsored attempt to stabilize the new Afghani government.

No need to continue... I think you get my point.

Rono's assertion that the US gets involved in these trouble spots in order to "increase US prosperity" is simply false. That's not to say that they SHOULD get involved in these situations... many rational arguments can be made for US isolationism. I only point out that the US doesn't undertake these actions in order to increase US prosperity.

INstead they push policies through the IMF and World Bank that marginalizes labor...

As you point out later in your post, the US is often not the prime mover in these cases, and NEVER the sole participant.

WHy would you need to haul them off if the are getting paid 11 cents an hour to produce textiles or bananas for Western markets (including Canada).

Thank goodness there ARE Western markets for these products, or the people would be, in most cases, unemployed. It is a sad fact of life that for a very large segment of the population of the Third World, life as a "subsistence-wage" laborer is by far the best alternative of the few available.

Let me ask you a question. If the factories and plantations paying "eleven cents an hour" didn't exist, in other words if the corporations involved became ashamed of exploiting the people and closed up shop, what would those ex-workers do to keep themselves and their families alive?

This just happened in the Dominican Republic. Our beloved new President is a buffoon with no understanding of economics whatsoever. His absurd policy changes and new legislation of the industrial "free zones" has led to the closing of plants of a dozen different corporations (of which only two were American, by the way). Eight thousand workers are now unemployed, another estimated fourteen thousand people who made their livings from these workers are now also penniless. Note the ratio involved here -- even though these so-called "exploited workers" were purportedly receiving "subsistence wages", they still had enough disposable income to be the sole source of revenue for another group 1.57 times as large. This is after feeding themselves and their families, and I can assure you Dominicans have LARGE families.

Alot of your "aid" is used to fund the military...

Perhaps. Most of it isn't. Certainly the specific instances I mentioned have nothing to do with military. Do you deny the existence of the projects I mentioned?

For what it's worth I oppose foreign aid (except perhaps for ACTUAL loans secured with REAL collateral) for pretty much the same reasons you mention -- too much of the money ends up in the wrong hands. This is true even of shipments of food and medicines. The warlords intercept it all, the people get nothing. So, my opposition of foreign aid gives you another reason to think me a monster, I guess.

To sum up -- should the US be involved to the extent they are in the affairs of other nations? Probably not. Is the motivation for their involvement to INCREASE US PROSPERITY? Certainly not.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: ruskifile]
    #728480 - 07/07/02 06:00 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

ruskifile writes:

With the Americans it's: "Don't mention Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Grenada, Haiti, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Dominican Republic."

The writer has a fairly broad definition of "war". What was the reason for including Cuba, Haiti, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Bosnia, and the Dominican Republic in his list?

Also note that Germany INITIATED their wars. The US initiated none of the conflicts on his list. Not one.

As for their actions in the Dominican Republic, let me quote an earlier post of mine. I tried to merely link it, but it appears the "URL" button in the post composing screen is not working properly today.

I live in the Dominican Republic, and am quite familiar with its history. The US was not overthrowing a parliamentary government (as Chomsky claims). Quite the reverse. Juan Bosch had been democratically elected president in 1962 but was felled by a military coup. A series of short-lived "provisional governments" (read military juntas seizing power from one another) traded places while civil war broke out. In 1965, President Lyndon Johnson sent the Marines to stop the fighting and ensure that UN supervised elections could be held. A second democratic election was held in 1966 and Joaqu?n Balaguer was elected president in what was probably one of the most scrupulously supervised elections ever held in Latin America.

Hardly a war. The Dominican people LOVE the Americans, and are grateful for their assistance. It makes me furious to see, time after time, in post after post by credulous cretins who post here, this blatant misrepresentation of what really took place. It is easily checked, yet such is the power of the Great God Chomsky that people never bother to do so. "If Noam said it is so, then it MUST be so." I have no idea why he thinks he can get away with it... there are dozens and dozens of sites on the web which tell the real story.

pinky



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Offlinepolitikill
journeyman

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 72
Loc: THC, Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728560 - 07/07/02 07:01 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If you really live in DR my apologies, as for your responses to my statements, they are weak.
Yes, the Sandanista's were voted out of power however after years of US sponsored terror which resulted in the deaths of thousands of Nicaraguan's. The US also slapped a economic embargo on Nicaragua punishing it for forging it's own economic and political destiny. Ever heard of something called the IRan-Contra scandal?
The US was arming and training the Contra's (with taxpayers money) most of whom were part of the old Nicaraguan Guard under the Somoza regime. Many with a long history of human rights abuses. THey were trained at the School of the America's in Fort Bening, GA. The Sandanistas took the US to the World COurt on charges of International terrorism, as it is against international law to fund or arm military groups in another country with the intent of toppling the government. The US lost in the World Court on a vote of 15-2, they had been convicted of international terrorism and had violated international law.
The US continued its crusade against the Sandanista's in violation of international law and funded and armed the Contra often using military bases in El Salvador. TO give you an idea of how bad it got the Reagan administration also broke US congressional law too. Congress had voted (something called the Boland admendment (sp??) that the US could only give the Contra's non-lethal aid such as medical and that is it. So they started selling guns to Iran and funneling the money through the the National Security Council (Oliver North) and back out to the Contra's. They have also been implicated in the drugs for guns deals that went on as well. The Contra's are responsible for over 100,000 deaths in Nicaragua the vast majority of the dead were civilians, the number of human rights abuses linked to them are also well in the thousands...

You ask me how big of a trading partner is Columbia?? Let me answer your question with a question, I ask you how big of a trading partner was Vietnam in the mid 60's??? Get my point, the US sent thousands to their deaths in Vietnam, a country that you would now tell me was "not a big trading parnter" and therefore not worthy of examining US foreign policy towards it. Oil is the interest that the US has in Venezuela and Columbia, check out the recent history in Venezuela very interesting. Not to mention that vast amounts of Narco dollars flow through the US banking system everyday but I digress, the point here is that:
1) The US does have interests in countries such as Columbia, hundreds of thousands of $$ come out of that country every day to the multinational corps who have oil interests. In Venezuela, the President was warned several days before the coup by a Chief at OPEC that a coup might be staged on APril 11th, the actual day of the coup. One of the directive of the coup was to denationalize the state oil company (PDVSA) leaving it in the hands of a US firm linked back to the Bush family.
President Chavez says: "I have written proof of the time of the entries and exits of 2 US military officers into the headquarters of the coup plotters- their names whom they met with... proof on video and on still photographs"
2) Ever heard of "the Threat of a Good Example", this is the reason the US was in Vietnam, not because it was a big trading partner, it's summed up here by Noam Chomsky:
The threat of a good example
No country is exempt from this treatment, no matter how unimportant. In fact, it's the weakest, poorest countries that often arouse the greatest hysteria.
Take Laos in the 1960s, probably the poorest country in the world. Most of the people who lived there didn't even know there was such a thing as Laos; they just knew they had a little village and there was another little village nearby.

But as soon as a very low-level social revolution began to develop there, Washington subjected Laos to a murderous "secret bombing," virtually wiping out large settled areas in operations that, it was conceded, had nothing to do with the war the US was waging in South Vietnam.

Grenada has a hundred thousand people who produce a little nutmeg, and you could hardly find it on a map. But when Grenada began to undergo a mild social revolution, Washington quickly moved to destroy the threat.

From the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 till the collapse of the Communist governments in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s, it was possible to justify every US attack as a defense against the Soviet threat. So when the United States invaded Grenada in 1983, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff explained that, in the event of a Soviet attack on Western Europe, a hostile Grenada could interdict oil supplies from the Caribbean to Western Europe and we wouldn't be able to defend our beleaguered allies. Now this sounds comical, but that kind of story helps mobilize public support for aggression, terror and subversion.

The attack against Nicaragua was justified by the claim that if we don't stop "them" there, they'll be pouring across the border at Harlingen, Texas -- just two days' drive away. (For educated people, there were more sophisticated variants, just about as plausible.)

As far as American business is concerned, Nicaragua could disappear and nobody would notice. The same is true of El Salvador. But both have been subjected to murderous assaults by the US, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and many billions of dollars.

There's a reason for that. The weaker and poorer a country is, the more dangerous it is as an example. If a tiny, poor country like Grenada can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place that has more resources will ask, "why not us?"

This was even true in Indochina, which is pretty big and has some significant resources. Although Eisenhower and his advisers ranted a lot about the rice and tin and rubber, the real fear was that if the people of Indochina achieved independence and justice, the people of Thailand would emulate it, and if that worked, they'd try it in Malsya, and pretty soon Indonesia would pursue an independent path, and by then a significant area of the Grand Area would have been lost.

If you want a global system that's subordinated to the needs of US investors, you can't let pieces of it wander off. It's striking how clearly this is stated in the documentary record -- even in the public record at times. Take Chile under Allende.

Chile is a fairly big place, with a lot of natural resources, but again, the United States wasn't going to collapse if Chile became independent. Why were we so concerned about it? According to Kissinger, Chile was a "virus" that would "infect" the region with effects all the way to Italy.

US planners from Secretary of State Dean Acheson in the late 1940s to the present have warned that "one rotten apple can spoil the barrel." The danger is that the "rot" -- social and economic development -- may spread.

This "rotten apple theory" is called the domino theory for public consumption. The version used to frighten the public has Ho Chi Minh getting in a canoe and landing in California, and so on. Maybe some US leaders believe this nonsense -- it's possible -- but rational planners certainly don't. They understand that the real threat is the "good example."

Sometimes the point is explained with great clarity. When the US was planning to overthrow Guatemalan democracy in 1954, a State Department official pointed out that "Guatemala has become an increasing threat to the stability of Honduras and El Salvador. Its agrarian reform is a powerful propaganda weapon; its broad social program of aiding the workers and peasants in a victorious struggle against the upper classes and large foreign enterprises has a strong appeal to the populations of Central American neighbors where similar conditions prevail."

In other words, what the US wants is "stability," meaning security for the "upper classes and large foreign enterprises." If that can be achieved with formal democratic devices, OK. If not, the "threat to stability" posed by a good example has to be destroyed before the virus infects others.

That's why even the tiniest speck poses such a threat, and may have to be crushed.

Well I have already said way too much, later
Politikill


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Offlinepolitikill
journeyman

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 72
Loc: THC, Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728566 - 07/07/02 07:08 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, I had to use Chomsky just too piss you off but there are hundreds of Univeristy professors that have similar sentiments about US foreign policy...

You are trying to tell me that the US did not intiate the Vietnam war, excuse me but I don't seem to remember the Viet Cong landing on US shores .... That is a fucking joke, not even worthy of a response!!!!!


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: politikill]
    #728745 - 07/07/02 08:42 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

politikill writes:

You are trying to tell me that the US did not intiate the Vietnam war, excuse me but I don't seem to remember the Viet Cong landing on US shores ....

I don't seem to remember Nazis landing on US shores either. Does that mean the US started World War II?

That is a fucking joke, not even worthy of a response!!!!!

I'm not TRYING to tell you, I AM telling you: the US didn't INITIATE the Viet Nam war. If you must trace it back to a single cause (virtually impossible) one can consider the French occupation of Viet Nam (then called Indochina) the main cause.

The US originally got involved at the request of the government of France. The first US troops were there to teach the French how to pilot helicopters. These helicopters were to be used for medical evacuations only, of course. These US troops were non-combatants.

The CBC in Canada aired many years ago a superb multipart documentary called "The Ten Thousand Day War" which was later published as a book (or series of books, I can't recall now). It is just one of MANY histories of the war in which is explained quite thoroughly, in great detail, by dispassionate historians, the roots and major events of what eventually became commonly known as the Viet Nam war.

As I have stated on numerous occasions in this forum in the past, and undoubtedly will many times more, I was vehemently opposed to US involvement in Viet Nam. I demonstrated against it, was arrested and spent the night in jail (twice) for participating in some demonstrations that got a little unruly. In my opinion, the US should have gotten out of that horror LONG before they did.

But having said that, even I and the other people who attended the rallies were all very much aware the US didn't START the war. Even the stone potheads who were just in it for the dope and the chicks knew that. We just wanted them OUT.

You can wax indignant all you want, and refuse to respond all you want, but facts are facts. The US did not START the Viet Nam war.

pinky


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Offlinepolitikill
journeyman

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 72
Loc: THC, Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728852 - 07/07/02 09:24 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, the French were a part of the history of the region and occupied all of Vietnam by 1884. After Vietnam was "granted" it's freedom France stayed and occupied until 1954 when a they were pushed out of the North by Ho Chi Minh. At this point US military aid to the South skyrocketed where the US also had sponsored the murder of the South Vietnamese leader (Diem) and quickly installed their boy (Thieu). The US was heavily involved in intelligence operations with the CIA murdering scores of "political dissidents".

The point here is that regardless of whether it is France, the US, Russia or Canada makes no difference. Vietnam has a right to political self-determination, regardless of whether it's political ideology is considered "desirable" or not.

i have still yet to see how Vietnam brought this was upon itself... It was a war against the people of Vietnam, one of the principle reasons it failed.


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Censorship: ahh, McCarthyism with a smiley face


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: Phred]
    #728874 - 07/07/02 09:33 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I guy I met, did'nt like the Dominican Republic at all, in fact most of his family moved to Puerto Rico, and he continue to move to the Mexico, then California, and finally ended up on the east coast washing dishes, this is where I met him. His english was'n the greatest, so a discussion like you suggest you have done with native Dominicans, never took place between me and him. Thas all I have to say about the Dominican.

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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #728887 - 07/07/02 09:41 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I can't help but feel that using history as a intuition, France, Spain, and England, like fighting brothers fought, and helped each other claim the "Grand Arena" the Sina Area is very important, rich in minerals, Iron for shipbuilding , Superphosphurus in the soil, which means extradornary farming, which the U.s. actually exports from the Phillipinnes. If we did'nt have Sina, then japan would, or China, and we would be insecure.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: I didn't write it, but I like it! [Re: nugsarenice]
    #728967 - 07/07/02 10:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

no offense but what do your last 2 posts have to do with anything?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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