|
mikebart101
Bromden



Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 619
Loc: New England
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
The evolution of mathematics and reality.
#7189443 - 07/17/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
It is only a matter of time before our understanding of math evolves to the point of 'everything'. Right now we use math to record reality and predict the behavior of it. The equations have gotten bigger and the problems have gotten near impossible; it is only until we change our basic understanding of it will we ever move further.
Right now we use 10 numerals to represent reality. That's nothing. It seems almost as simple as you can get, for combining these 10 digits allows us to understand what we 'can' understand around us. The more complex the action, the longer the sequence of digits. This is where the fault lies. The simplicity becomes nearly impossible to detect as our reach lengthens.
There will come a day, however, when entire equations are represented with pictures or hieroglyphics, and theory will no longer rely upon numbers interacting with other numbers, but by entire equations reacting together. And math will reach a point of such complexity, that it will become simpler and simpler. There will be no more calculators needed or geniuses to decipher the simplest of actions, but a common understanding of what happens around us. We will see how reality itself is just a motion picture made up of sequential frames, whose foundations are equations comprised of just 10 digits.
Math will become reailty, not just a way of recording it.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
Edited by mikebart101 (07/17/07 06:26 PM)
|
Chubba
Vape hungry

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 6,785
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. *DELETED* [Re: mikebart101]
#7189527 - 07/17/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by ChubbaReason for deletion: Deleted
|
JackthaTripper
MSME!



Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
Loc: Mind Exploration
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189551 - 07/17/07 06:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Why would we want to abolish the number system?
And how would hieroglyphics make math easier?
Also, how would it become more simplistic (easier to understand) after becoming increasingly complex?
--------------------
Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
|
mikebart101
Bromden



Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 619
Loc: New England
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Chubba]
#7189578 - 07/17/07 06:55 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
LOL...I'm in my third year of civil engineering. But anyways here I go...
There will come a time when the most complex of math problems is the mixing of colors; i.e the mixing of yellow and blue to create green. That's where math is headed. Right now we try and express entire actions using all digits and operations involved and this is where we are being held back. When you describe a square do you describe it as four equal rays attached together at both ends at 90 degrees as to create a shape, or do you say 'its a square'. This is how math is to evolve. We will no longer be looking at equations but rather at what they represent and how these 'representations' or pictures, colors, shapes, etc. interact with each other. Reality will dictate math and math will dictate reality visually.
Go look at the smoke that comes off a small flame such as a cigarette or cigar. Its very geometric; almost like a rectangular slinky that has been stretched out.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
|
Chubba
Vape hungry

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 6,785
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. *DELETED* [Re: mikebart101]
#7189589 - 07/17/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by ChubbaReason for deletion: Deleted
|
mikebart101
Bromden



Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 619
Loc: New England
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Chubba]
#7189627 - 07/17/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Well what holds you back when you try and solve a differential equation or some other crap? You get stuck on the basics; the simple algebra even though you understand the difficult part of the problem. This is where math needs to change. I don't know how to explain it anymore except to associate math with a color wheel. Only a few basic colors can create all this. Its all about finding out which equations represent those colors. Einstein tried almost all his life to complete the string theory.
It will be a long time before math gets to this point but I'm pretty sure that this is where its headed.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
|
JackthaTripper
MSME!



Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
Loc: Mind Exploration
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189824 - 07/17/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
What level math classes have you taken?
Unless you soundly understand the fundamental intricacies of modern mathematics I would suggest not theorizing on the future of such subject. You have to understand the fundamental things like algebra in order to comprehend the complex upper level problems. Math is comprehensive the knowledge builds on itself; you'll never get to the top unless you've got a sound bottom.
And representing entire equations with a symbol like 'hieroglyphics' is nothing more than a variable substitution.
I don't get your hypothesis.
--------------------
Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
|
mikebart101
Bromden



Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 619
Loc: New England
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: JackthaTripper]
#7189858 - 07/17/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Modern mathematics is comparable to using MS-DOS to understand the universe. It's time for it to evolve to a higher level of simplicity.
And I've had my fair share of math courses. Its my strongest subject. Don't mean to be a douche about it but you asked.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
|
JackthaTripper
MSME!



Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
Loc: Mind Exploration
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189892 - 07/17/07 08:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
fair share=?
Don't mean to be a douche but you didn't really give an answer.
As for evolving to higher levels of simplicity how is this done? The only way it gets easier for me is to study my ass off and become familiar with the subject matter, but that is no simple task (for me at least).
--------------------
Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189904 - 07/17/07 08:18 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
It is only a matter of time before our understanding of math evolves to the point of 'everything'
Nope.
A guy named Kurt Godel figured out that not everything that is true can be proved. It's called the Incompleteness Theorems and it fairly freaked out every mathematician on Earth when it was published early last century. It was a landmark result in First Order Logic and unique in that it was not just a mathematical statement inside mathematics, but rather a mathematical statement ABOUT mathematics itself. Lemme see if I can translate it into English. See if this makes sense:
Imagine you're the head librarian of a city with many libraries. You've asked each branch librarian to compile a catalog of all the books in their particular library.
When you receive them all, you find that some librarians listed their catalog in itself, since the catalog is itself a book. Others decided not to list the catalog in itself.
So, now you have two stacks of catalogs, one where they list themselves, and another where they don't.
--
Your task is to compile a master catalog of only the catalogs that DO NOT list themselves; a meta-catalog of sorts.
When you finish the meta-catalog of all the catalogs that DO NOT list themselves, you realize that your meta-catalog is incomplete because it's missing itself. Remember that you're compiling a meta-catalog of catalogs that do not list themselves. But the instant you add the meta-catalog to its own list, it becomes incorrect because again remember it's a meta-catalog of catalogs that DON'T list themselves.
So you have a quandary: either the catalog is incomplete (it's missing itself) or it's incorrect (it contains itself).
This self-referential construct is a very deep concept in mathematics and it's at the heart of Godel's theorems. It turns out that no system of mathematical rules can ever be complete because adding the final rule makes the system incorrect.
Weird eh? If there is a Creator, he definitely has a sense of humor.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7190050 - 07/17/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I thought that was Bertrand Russel's paradox, developed in 1901. The set of all sets that are not members of themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox
It's definitely the same idea. Who is the original thinker here?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190089 - 07/17/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Actually, Russel was working on a seminal work at the time called Principia Mathematica in which he was attempting to finally, once and for all, reduce all of mathematics to a foundational logic.
After Russel spent years of work writing hundreds and hundreds of pages of logic that look like wallpaper, Godel came up with Incompleteness which reduced all of Russel's work to nothing.
Russel had a nervous breakdown when he learned of Godel's result and was never as sharp again. In fact, Godel's first paper was titled: On Formally Undecidable Propositions in Principia Mathematica and Related Systems I.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190148 - 07/17/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
It is only a matter of time before our understanding of math evolves to the point of 'everything'
Do you mean a time when math evolves to describe everything? Right now the structure of math is very similar to certain observable phenomena. Like predicting projectiles or population growth rates ~ just certain phenomena that have the same structure as the language we call math.
Other phenomena, such as emotions, aren't shaped like the mathematical language, and thus a mathematical description of them becomes extremely complex and difficult. The language of psychology is substituted.
What you are proposing seems to be that math will develop to the point of becoming an all encompassing language. As you have pointed out, however, the building blocks of math don't seem to work for everything. It's possible that a new mathematical building block will allow us to describe different things. I don't see the trend leading in that direction though, that is the part I question.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190167 - 07/17/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I don't understand what it means to reduce math to a foundation of logic. That sucks though...to have a nervous breakdown over a theorem...it sort of baffles me.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190207 - 07/17/07 09:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
He was trying to reduce all of mathematics to one large set of logical propositions that covered everything consistently. For example, one of the things he proved from first principles was that 1 + 1 = 2, and it took over 300 pages!
He didn't freak out over a theorem; he freaked out over the invalidation of his life's work. Pricipia Mathematica was to be his opus mangnum.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7190228 - 07/17/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I wonder how Godel felt.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo] 1
#7192107 - 07/18/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Godel was like
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7192227 - 07/18/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly, instead of using symbols?
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7192638 - 07/18/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Amber_Glow said: I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly, instead of using symbols?
I think we can do already do it and let math freaks do... math?  Why should one wait for "the humanity" to come to the same conclusions? Not to mention that each of us would be waiting for that in different points so it will never happen for the most of us... statistically speaking ( see, we need math too after all).
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7192786 - 07/18/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly
Without math, reality would not contain computers... or airplanes or medicine or bridges or CD players or...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7192979 - 07/18/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Atomic bombs.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Icelander]
#7193108 - 07/18/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Radiation oncology, MRI, Ultrasound...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7193166 - 07/18/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
the universe...
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7193176 - 07/18/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bradley said: the universe...
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7193210 - 07/18/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Is the universe a consequence of mathematics... or is mathematics a consequence of the universe?? Hmmm...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7193218 - 07/18/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
well, that is where we pulled math out of, isn't it?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7193232 - 07/18/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not so sure.
If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?
After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7193242 - 07/18/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Is the universe a consequence of mathematics... or is mathematics a consequence of the universe?? Hmmm...
The mathematical universe happened.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7193263 - 07/18/07 03:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Mathematics is just a measuring technique. People invented mathematics so we can make the universe discernible to our minds, from what you say it was the other way around
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7193265 - 07/18/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: I'm not so sure.
If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?
After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.
The prime number example I think requires time and space since it symbolizes the physical act of dividing. So before the big bang, I say 7 or any prime numbers did not exist. Or math.
As for math describing things that don't exist...then what is it describing? Ideas such as the square root of negative one I think symbolize stages of processes, and the error is in attributing the symbol to a "thing".
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7193277 - 07/18/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Sure, if we forget about math, the universe will collapse ? Maybe for us, in our senses
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7193314 - 07/18/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Sure, if we forget about math, the universe will collapse ? Maybe for us, in our senses
It's not about keeping it in memory. It's about how we got here.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7193329 - 07/18/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Mathematics is just a measuring technique. People invented mathematics so we can make the universe discernible to our minds, from what you say it was the other way around
The universe invented people to make math discernible to its mind? I don't see why not.
|
Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7193921 - 07/18/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Mathematics is just a measuring technique. People invented mathematics so we can make the universe discernible to our minds
I think all our inventions have just served to cloud reality. Fuck Math! I think we tend to apply math to everything we see, where it is only really applicable in some situations (like architecture or computing). But our labels and definitions become more than tools and overtake our view.
Ten numbers....5 senses...words...definitions...judgments...Wah!
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7193973 - 07/18/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Ahhh but we've got so far with science. If we're unable to discern and draw the lines between that and applying numbers in all aspects of our live, it's our own inability.  Wanting to rid math just because of that is exactly the same with banning drugs just because there are irresponsible users.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7194228 - 07/18/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
"In the end, we self-perceiving, self-inventing, locked-in mirages are little miracles of self-reference." - Douglas Hofstadter
I suspect the contents of existence may be self-referentially constructed..
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7196103 - 07/19/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bradley said: I wonder how Godel felt.
I don't know how Gödel felt when he proved his famous incompleteness theorem. I can imagine all of the reactions , or . But he didn't seem to be a happy person overall. He was paranoid all his life, and he died from starvation at age 71 when his wife could no longer cook his food, and he refused to eat any other food since it might be poisoned by unknown enemies who wanted to kill him.
Gödel also did some interesting work in theoretical physics: he found a solution to the Einstein field equation (which describes the force of gravity) that contains "closed timelike curves" which are paths through spacetime where the future at some point reconnects with the past, creating a loop in time. This discovery allegedly made Einstein doubt his own theory.
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7196171 - 07/19/07 02:35 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?
After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.
This used to bug me a lot before the mushrooms taught me that all existence is conditional. So if something like "7" were present in some hypothetical world different from ours, then 7 exists in that world. And if that world's 7 shares all its properties with the number 7 that we know in our world, then they are obviously the same number, and that number's existence is not limited to one particular possible world.
Just like "I" am just one subjective reality chosen out of many different possible ones, so is "our world" just one objective reality chosen out of many different possible ones.
|
Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7196704 - 07/19/07 08:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rhizoid said:
Quote:
bradley said: I wonder how Godel felt.
I don't know how Gödel felt when he proved his famous incompleteness theorem. I can imagine all of the reactions , or . But he didn't seem to be a happy person overall. He was paranoid all his life, and he died from starvation at age 71 when his wife could no longer cook his food, and he refused to eat any other food since it might be poisoned by unknown enemies who wanted to kill him.
Gödel also did some interesting work in theoretical physics: he found a solution to the Einstein field equation (which describes the force of gravity) that contains "closed timelike curves" which are paths through spacetime where the future at some point reconnects with the past, creating a loop in time. This discovery allegedly made Einstein doubt his own theory.
That's interesting. How do you know this ~ did you read biographies or actual works by Godel?
Diploid: I'm also curious how you know your info about Bertrand Russel and Godel.
You guys seem so knowledgeable
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7196974 - 07/19/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I have never read any original work by Gödel, just other people's books that explain his famous theorems, and various articles where his name pops up (many articles about "closed timelike curves" will mention Gödel). I started reading biographies about mathematicians after hearing anecdotes about people like Archimedes, Gauss, Kronecker, Ramanujan, etc, and began wondering about the lives of the people behind all these ideas that have become associated with their names.
There is a great collection of short biographies here:
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/BiogIndex.html
And there is so much drama and crazy stuff in these stories, that some things just stick in my memory. Like Gödel starving to death due to paranoia, or Galois who single-handedly invented algebraic group theory and then got killed in a duel over a girl before his 21th birthday. Or Heaviside, who invented the step function (step like in a staircase step) among other things, and used blocks of granite as furniture in his home.
|
incomplete
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7197087 - 07/19/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rhizoid said:
Quote:
Diploid said: If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?
After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.
This used to bug me a lot before the mushrooms taught me that all existence is conditional. So if something like "7" were present in some hypothetical world different from ours, then 7 exists in that world. And if that world's 7 shares all its properties with the number 7 that we know in our world, then they are obviously the same number, and that number's existence is not limited to one particular possible world.
Just like "I" am just one subjective reality chosen out of many different possible ones, so is "our world" just one objective reality chosen out of many different possible ones.
Numbers as well as any other mathematical object are nothing but shared (yet precise) ideas among us humans. There is no objective reality to our "7" and so it certainly did not exist until at least the time that we evolved abstraction capabilities, let alone before time.
Now suppose some creature on a distant planet has developed enough abstract reasoning to count, but nothing else. He walks along and sees "7" rocks. Is his idea of "7" (which in this case is the same amount as our "7") prime? I would say no since he has no algebra to speak of and the concept of primeness does not exist to him. It's not until we observe the 7 seven rocks that the amount becomes prime to us and to him (assuming we can teach him algebra and not kill/eat him)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7197165 - 07/19/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Knowledge is power. Its amazing how much of it is out there...
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
JackthaTripper
MSME!



Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2,494
Loc: Mind Exploration
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7197707 - 07/19/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Mathematics is just the name to describe numerical relationships that we observe in reality.
Humans have not designed/created these concepts, rather, humans have simply added the labels to them after we discovered these things from the infinite plane of knowledge.
These mathematical relationships would still exist without humans, they just wouldn't be contemplated on by a conscious mind (unless you believe in God or intelligent life outside of earth).
--------------------
Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7197804 - 07/19/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
incomplete said: Numbers as well as any other mathematical object are nothing but shared (yet precise) ideas among us humans. There is no objective reality to our "7" and so it certainly did not exist until at least the time that we evolved abstraction capabilities, let alone before time.
Now suppose some creature on a distant planet has developed enough abstract reasoning to count, but nothing else. He walks along and sees "7" rocks. Is his idea of "7" (which in this case is the same amount as our "7") prime? I would say no since he has no algebra to speak of and the concept of primeness does not exist to him. It's not until we observe the 7 seven rocks that the amount becomes prime to us and to him (assuming we can teach him algebra and not kill/eat him)
It all depends on which assumptions (conditions) you require for "existence" of primality. If we allow extrapolation from present evidence to prove that something existed in the past, then the 7 rocks in your example is a prime number now if we can visit the distant planet in the future, observe the rocks, and conclude that the number hasn't changed in the meantime. We can draw that conclusion since the alien swears that this is true. Or perhaps we can infer in some other way that the number hasn't changed, without asking any alien.
This is how science can make statements about our own past, by the way. Objective reality is extended into the past, even if there are no living observers that can be interviewed, and in cases were there are dead observers that we accept written evidence from, it doesn't matter if their knowledge and reasoning powers were inferior to ours.
If we don't allow this type of extrapolation to decide what exists in objective reality and what doesn't, then we are playing a different game that has a more narrow sense of "existence", and where logic has less power. An extreme variant of this game is where the only things that exist are my perceptions and my beliefs. E.g. 7 is only a prime when I am looking at the mathematical proof, or thinking about it. This is pure solipsism and solipsism is a perfectly valid worldview, just not very useful...
What I am trying to say is that "existence" is never absolute, it always depends on a framework of conditions. For example, if I were a hypothetical being in a hypothetical world, I would still claim "I think, therefore I am" with just as much conviction as Descartes had in the past of our world.
|
incomplete
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7198227 - 07/19/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I agree that the 7 alien rocks are prime to us just as 7 unicorns would be and in fact any group of 7 things we imagine because 7 is a prime number. The point was that to the alien, who unlike us has no knowledge of algebra or concepts of primeness, they are just seven rocks. They are not prime to him and therefore do not exist as prime to him since his 7 is not prime (to him.)
I think it's fairly clear that mathematical objects do not exist in objective reality. You cannot pick up a 2 or kiss a prime. Mathematics is nothing but a language. It may be solisistic but 7 does indeed exist only when you are thinking about it. You just happen to think about the same exact thing as anyone else thinking about seven (or siete, shichi, etc.)
What I'm trying to stress is that before humans, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, there was no such thing such thing as 7, just like there were no such things as truth or good or evil. These are purely human constructs. And if all of humanity were wiped out tomorrow "7" would be gone with it.
|
TameMe
Stranger



Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 2,734
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7208762 - 07/22/07 12:55 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
incomplete said: I agree that the 7 alien rocks are prime to us just as 7 unicorns would be and in fact any group of 7 things we imagine because 7 is a prime number. The point was that to the alien, who unlike us has no knowledge of algebra or concepts of primeness, they are just seven rocks. They are not prime to him and therefore do not exist as prime to him since his 7 is not prime (to him.)
I think it's fairly clear that mathematical objects do not exist in objective reality. You cannot pick up a 2 or kiss a prime. Mathematics is nothing but a language. It may be solisistic but 7 does indeed exist only when you are thinking about it. You just happen to think about the same exact thing as anyone else thinking about seven (or siete, shichi, etc.)
What I'm trying to stress is that before humans, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, there was no such thing such thing as 7, just like there were no such things as truth or good or evil. These are purely human constructs. And if all of humanity were wiped out tomorrow "7" would be gone with it.
so are you saying math comes in and out of existance only when we think of it? so it is dies and is then reborn again...exactly the same everytime?
the whole thing about us not understanding something means it doesn't exist doesn't jive with me. it's sort of like...if you can't see the light from the sun is it really not there? well the people in fucking china know it's there...so it exists for them but for you....it's nonexistant...sorry buddy...we wouldn't be here if that was the case.
|
FollowTheMusic
Stranger
Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 267
Last seen: 5 years, 24 days
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7209563 - 07/22/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Just two quick notes: check out Stephen Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science." You can read it online free here. He talks about complexity emerging from simplicity, patterns we can't quantify but can recognize visually, self-creating forms, yadda yadda. I haven't read it and I don't think he actually overthrew science, but I've heard it's interesting.
The other thing is, numbers are really a very small part of modern mathematics. Much of it uses spaces that are deeply abstract, treating numbers as a special case of far more general concepts. I don't think lay-people are exposed to this stuff, which is too bad, because it's trippy as hell
|
Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!



Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 10 months, 23 days
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7209606 - 07/22/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Is it not, already?
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7210170 - 07/22/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
incomplete said: I agree that the 7 alien rocks are prime to us just as 7 unicorns would be and in fact any group of 7 things we imagine because 7 is a prime number. The point was that to the alien, who unlike us has no knowledge of algebra or concepts of primeness, they are just seven rocks. They are not prime to him and therefore do not exist as prime to him since his 7 is not prime (to him.)
All right, then we agree. To him the 7 rocks are not prime, since existence is conditional and in this case the conditions are restricted to what the alien knows.
Quote:
I think it's fairly clear that mathematical objects do not exist in objective reality. You cannot pick up a 2 or kiss a prime. Mathematics is nothing but a language. It may be solisistic but 7 does indeed exist only when you are thinking about it. You just happen to think about the same exact thing as anyone else thinking about seven (or siete, shichi, etc.)
So when I think about seven I think about the same exact thing as anyone else thinking about seven? But that makes the number seven a part of objective reality, by definition. Objective reality is what multiple observers agree upon. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
What I'm trying to stress is that before humans, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, there was no such thing such thing as 7, just like there were no such things as truth or good or evil. These are purely human constructs. And if all of humanity were wiped out tomorrow "7" would be gone with it.
Perhaps, but "7" would be resurrected again if and when new intelligent life reappears on the planet.
|
incomplete
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7210428 - 07/22/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rhizoid said: So when I think about seven I think about the same exact thing as anyone else thinking about seven? But that makes the number seven a part of objective reality, by definition. Objective reality is what multiple observers agree upon. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think I misspoke when I said the same exact thing. My understanding of objective reality is that which originates outside of the mind. Modern mathematics has indeed provided a formal objective definition of "7." So for two people in the know who are thinking about "7", they might actually be thinking about this same objective definition (similar to how the we and the alien think about the same collection of 7 rocks,) but the "object" that represents "7" in each persons' mind is unique to him. This is excellently illustrated in the case of the alien. Both us and the alien see the same seven rocks, however our ideas of "7" are subjectively based on our own knowledge, for example we know it's a prime.
I think I said 'same exact thing' to make the point that mathematics is a shared language. I see now that that was way too strong (my own example shows that.) 'Similar' would have a better choice of words.
Quote:
Perhaps, but "7" would be resurrected again if and when new intelligent life reappears on the planet.
I don't think this is necessarily true at all. Does consciousness include the ability to abstract patterns from nature? Even if it did, why would this new life's math include the ability to count? I'm having trouble picturing what we would call math without counting simply because it is so intuitive and fundamental. But that in itself does not necessitate it. Sure there will always be collections of seven rocks on the ground. But is it as fundamental as logic (exists/not exists) that this collection of rocks will always be seen as a single object by any sufficiently intelligent creature? That action of grouping seems incredibly more evolved than mere self-awareness. And couldn't that evolution of abstract reasoning take a completely different path?
|
AtrocitY
Stranger

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 83
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7210530 - 07/22/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I was going to reply to many of the OP's posts, but our views differ so much, and I have a hard time expressing myself, so I'll leave that alone and just comment on this.
Quote:
Amber_Glow said: I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly, instead of using symbols?
As humans we make things more and more "complex" if you will, math being a tool for this. We will start dealing with "reality" not directly, but more simply, when we die and break down into the soil, or whatever we happen to be laying on.
-------------------- Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass It's about learning to dance in the rain
Edited by AtrocitY (07/22/07 04:00 PM)
|
AtrocitY
Stranger

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 83
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: JackthaTripper]
#7210543 - 07/22/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
JackthaTripper said: Mathematics is just the name to describe numerical relationships that we observe in reality.
Humans have not designed/created these concepts, rather, humans have simply added the labels to them after we discovered these things from the infinite plane of knowledge.
These mathematical relationships would still exist without humans, they just wouldn't be contemplated on by a conscious mind (unless you believe in God or intelligent life outside of earth).
Here we go, this is close enough to what I wanted to say. Although, this conscious mind is still contemplating the last paragraph.
Sorry for double post.
-------------------- Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass It's about learning to dance in the rain
|
incomplete
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: TameMe]
#7211626 - 07/22/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TameMe said: so are you saying math comes in and out of existence only when we think of it? so it is dies and is then reborn again...exactly the same everytime?
I would agree. I don't think it takes conscious thought though. For instance if you see "7" printed you automatically understand what it means. Though for a small child this takes quite a bit of effort. And I wouldn't say 'exactly the same' - mathematics is an evolving language, not only among the community but within yourself. One day you only know "7" but the next you know "7" is an odd number, the next you know "7" is a prime, etc..
Quote:
the whole thing about us not understanding something means it doesn't exist doesn't jive with me. it's sort of like...if you can't see the light from the sun is it really not there? well the people in fucking china know it's there...so it exists for them but for you....it's nonexistant...sorry buddy...we wouldn't be here if that was the case.
It's not the same as physical (objective?) reality. Within a reasonable amount of doubt the sun is shining when your eyes are closed and will shine long after we're gone. Math, as I've said, is a language. An ephemeral idea. If nobody speaks the language, then just like many human languages, it dies and exists no more.
|
incomplete
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: AtrocitY]
#7211667 - 07/22/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AtrocitY said:
Quote:
JackthaTripper said: Mathematics is just the name to describe numerical relationships that we observe in reality.
Humans have not designed/created these concepts, rather, humans have simply added the labels to them after we discovered these things from the infinite plane of knowledge.
These mathematical relationships would still exist without humans, they just wouldn't be contemplated on by a conscious mind (unless you believe in God or intelligent life outside of earth).
Here we go, this is close enough to what I wanted to say. Although, this conscious mind is still contemplating the last paragraph.
Sorry for double post.
Double posting myself....
But just to comment. Yes these relationships would still exist. Planets will orbit the sun and what goes up must come down, etc.. But to call these relationships mathematical is backwards. The relationships just are. Humans have come along and invented math as a rational way of "talking" about these relationships and patterns that surround us. That is all.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7212223 - 07/22/07 10:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Can a double-post exist without math? Hmmm...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7213082 - 07/23/07 07:22 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
incomplete said:
Quote:
Rhizoid said: Perhaps, but "7" would be resurrected again if and when new intelligent life reappears on the planet.
I don't think this is necessarily true at all. Does consciousness include the ability to abstract patterns from nature? Even if it did, why would this new life's math include the ability to count?
Sorry, I meant new intelligent (non-human) life that can count and multiply and form the concept of "prime number". My point was only that "7" can be resurrected by other beings after humans die out, if the circumstances are right.
Quote:
I'm having trouble picturing what we would call math without counting simply because it is so intuitive and fundamental. But that in itself does not necessitate it. Sure there will always be collections of seven rocks on the ground. But is it as fundamental as logic (exists/not exists) that this collection of rocks will always be seen as a single object by any sufficiently intelligent creature? That action of grouping seems incredibly more evolved than mere self-awareness. And couldn't that evolution of abstract reasoning take a completely different path?
Well, the alien could be self-aware and be able to count, but not be able to discriminate between "rock" and "non-rock". In that case the 7 rocks don't exist for him, even though he might be able to count other things to "7". But the 7 rocks still exist in our human objective reality, if there is any chance that we or any beings that share our reality ever gets to perceive the rocks as rocks distinct from non-rocks, and then count them.
Edited by Rhizoid (07/23/07 07:23 AM)
|
Endlessness
Nexus Refugee

Registered: 07/21/07
Posts: 272
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7213138 - 07/23/07 08:14 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Incomplete: you say that because one cant ´get a 2´, its not objective but only a language... but think about it.. what you are saying is that ´objective reality´ is only the very limited ´range of frequencies´ that we commonly classify as ´material´.. do you really think the universe is limited to that, to our definitions and possibilities of perception?
To me experience shows the universe has a range of frequencies much beyond what we and our instruments can perceive.. and language doesnt mean it´s not ´true´ and only ´subjective´, if you consider language a bit differently.. Language is interaction, and the universe is based on the interaction of all it´s parts, the reciprocal common maintenance of everything existing.. Universe IS language, in a way.
Rhizoid: your definition of objective reality is a very... ahmm... debatable one, heh?
so back in the days when most people thought that the sun goes round the earth, that was objective reality?
Edited by Endlessness (07/23/07 08:20 AM)
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Endlessness]
#7213557 - 07/23/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Endlessness said: Incomplete: you say that because one cant ´get a 2´, its not objective but only a language... but think about it.. what you are saying is that ´objective reality´ is only the very limited ´range of frequencies´ that we commonly classify as ´material´.. do you really think the universe is limited to that, to our definitions and possibilities of perception?
To me experience shows the universe has a range of frequencies much beyond what we and our instruments can perceive.. and language doesnt mean it´s not ´true´ and only ´subjective´, if you consider language a bit differently.. Language is interaction, and the universe is based on the interaction of all it´s parts, the reciprocal common maintenance of everything existing.. Universe IS language, in a way.
Yes! 
But please substitute "abstractions" for the newagey "frequencies" metaphor... 
I'd say the universe is logic, and language is (at its best) an attempt to express logic.
Quote:
Rhizoid: your definition of objective reality is a very... ahmm... debatable one, heh?
so back in the days when most people thought that the sun goes round the earth, that was objective reality?
Yes, their observations were the basis of their objective reality, and their observations are still correct and objective and still useful for modern astronomers, but their extrapolations based on their interpretations of that objective reality proved to be incorrect.
We can always extrapolate stuff from what we presently know. But there will always be gaps and holes that the extrapolations don't cover. There is no point in ascribing "reality" to some imaginary contents of these gaps and holes until we actually find a way to excavate them. If anyone thinks there is a point in doing so, please explain why you think so.
Edited by Rhizoid (07/23/07 11:21 AM)
|
Endlessness
Nexus Refugee

Registered: 07/21/07
Posts: 272
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7213675 - 07/23/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
but isnt it a contradiction to say that it was their objective reality, because ´their´ implies there is more than one therefore being subjective ?
isn´t the whole point of objective reality something that is the same for all observers?
sometimes I use analogies to explain my thoughts.. Like for example, Imagine ´Reality´ as a ball.. We are all looking at it through our little straws, tunnels (like R.A.W would call ´reality tunnel´). Sometimes we may be looking at a similar part as our neighbour, so we say: ´There! This is Reality, agreed?´. and then someone else comes along who´s looking at the opposite side and says ´No, this is reality, you guys are wrong´. But all are right in a way, except that they all are filtered perceptions of something infinitely complex.
Mathematics or physics or anything of the sort, is trying to map out the constants in what we call reality. But we are only noticing constants in the secondary process, so to say, or in one of the many levels that exist. What many people do (including me before) is to over-value the intellect. But the intellect has a limit to what it can apprehend and transform. An easy example of something the intellect can´t reach: Emotions. Emotions is of a different ´materiality´, so to say, but also very important, in it´s own level. To use the intellect when we must use emotions is a negative symptom, and vice versa. (like getting unproportionally angry at some discussion that should be intellectual, or being too literal and cold in a relation when for a propper response, one should understand the emotions involved)
Also the same with the ´Body/movement´. For example, try to think about how to walk up a stairs, or how to drive a car, and you will get confused. It can´t be thought because even if thinking is very good for some things, it is too slow for others, it doesnt ´catch´ what the movement ´center´ can catch. Anyone who does sports like skateboarding or juggling or whatever knows this in practice: You can´t think about it, you have to do it. It´s a great feeling when the body finally gets it.
Or try to use the ´movement/body´ to do something the intellect, like listening to a person in a conversation. You will only partially listen to the words and maybe can even repeat what was said, but the stimulus wont be transformed through the intellect apparatus.
Truth also resides in these different levels. Truth is not only intellect. Haven´t you known something emotionally for sure, even though you could never explain it intellectually? Or so on and so on.
Mathematics is of great help, yes, and it is a great tool in the intellect level. Being humans, we have a limit to how close to Truth we can get, but we can get closer. But to reach closer and have an encompassing view of reality, a big inner struggle is needed so that we use all our functions in equilibrium and act as Consciously as possible, and not just ´having a nice intellectual equation that sums it all up´.
(sorry for the big post)
Edited by Endlessness (07/23/07 11:58 AM)
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Endlessness]
#7217144 - 07/24/07 08:24 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Endlessness said: but isnt it a contradiction to say that it was their objective reality, because ´their´ implies there is more than one therefore being subjective ?
isn´t the whole point of objective reality something that is the same for all observers?
Yes, that's the point. But it's only possible to the extent that the observers share the same set of concepts. For example, an alien who has no concept of "wave" will find the statement "radio waves exist" meaningless. He could still be able to observe the electromagnetic field, and detect variations of the field strength, but radio waves as such won't be part of his reality. Just like the other alien earlier in the thread who had no concept of "prime number".
Quote:
Truth also resides in these different levels. Truth is not only intellect. Haven´t you known something emotionally for sure, even though you could never explain it intellectually? Or so on and so on.
Sure I have. But I have also found that many times it's just because a useful vocabulary and conceptual framework was lacking.
|
incomplete
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
#7217383 - 07/24/07 10:07 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rhizoid said: Well, the alien could be self-aware and be able to count, but not be able to discriminate between "rock" and "non-rock". In that case the 7 rocks don't exist for him, even though he might be able to count other things to "7". But the 7 rocks still exist in our human objective reality, if there is any chance that we or any beings that share our reality ever gets to perceive the rocks as rocks distinct from non-rocks, and then count them.
Adding to this, it seems to me that in order for the notion of counting to evolve, the organism must be able to differentiate between 'distinct' objects. This is probably trivial though since even plants differentiate between day and night.
Quote:
Endlessness said: Incomplete: you say that because one cant ´get a 2´, its not objective but only a language... but think about it.. what you are saying is that ´objective reality´ is only the very limited ´range of frequencies´ that we commonly classify as ´material´.. do you really think the universe is limited to that, to our definitions and possibilities of perception?
I wholeheartedly agree that humans only perceive a fraction of the universe around them. And indeed, mathematicians are 'mapping an invisible world.' This invisible world though shouldn't be confused with the physically invisible world. '2' exists in the same world as truth and beauty, a world created inside your mind. Of course, being a good skeptic, I can't flat out deny that '2' exists objectively somewhere, but if it does it might as well be heaven that we've plucked it out of.
Quote:
To me experience shows the universe has a range of frequencies much beyond what we and our instruments can perceive.. and language doesnt mean it´s not ´true´ and only ´subjective´, if you consider language a bit differently.. Language is interaction, and the universe is based on the interaction of all it´s parts, the reciprocal common maintenance of everything existing.. Universe IS language, in a way.
I like the idea of language as interaction, but considering that you can develop your own mathematics (or and other language) by yourself, completely isolated... is interaction necessary for language? Perhaps it's the case that interaction is language? Everything in the universe that interacts does so according to some protocol. So maybe mathematics is how we have translated the language of the universe.
And I too have overvalued intellect in the past. When one sees math for what it is one finds that there is just as much truth in dance.
|
Rhizoid
carbon unit


Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: incomplete]
#7217654 - 07/24/07 11:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
incomplete said: Adding to this, it seems to me that in order for the notion of counting to evolve, the organism must be able to differentiate between 'distinct' objects. This is probably trivial though since even plants differentiate between day and night.
This raises an interesting question: What makes an object "distinct"?
A rock surrounded by dirt and air is just a certain type of pattern in a sea of electrons, protons, and neutrons. You need to have sense organs or measuring instruments that can recognize that type of pattern in order to perceive it. An alien who is made of some sort of hypothetical exotic matter that interacts poorly with ordinary matter could very well have failed to make the distinction between rock and non-rock, and yet be able to identify and count other types of objects.
|
|