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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
    #7192979 - 07/18/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Atomic bombs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Icelander]
    #7193108 - 07/18/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Radiation oncology, MRI, Ultrasound...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
    #7193166 - 07/18/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

the universe...


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7193176 - 07/18/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
the universe...




:what:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7193210 - 07/18/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Is the universe a consequence of mathematics... or is mathematics a consequence of the universe?? Hmmm...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7193218 - 07/18/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

well, that is where we pulled math out of, isn't it?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7193232 - 07/18/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not so sure.

If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?

After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7193242 - 07/18/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Is the universe a consequence of mathematics... or is mathematics a consequence of the universe?? Hmmm...




The mathematical universe happened. :shrug:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7193263 - 07/18/07 03:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Mathematics is just a measuring technique.
People invented mathematics so we can make the universe discernible to our minds, from what you say it was the other way around :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
    #7193265 - 07/18/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I'm not so sure.

If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?

After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.




The prime number example I think requires time and space since it symbolizes the physical act of dividing. So before the big bang, I say 7 or any prime numbers did not exist. Or math.

As for math describing things that don't exist...then what is it describing? Ideas such as the square root of negative one I think symbolize stages of processes, and the error is in attributing the symbol to a "thing".


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7193277 - 07/18/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Sure, if we forget about math, the universe will collapse ?
Maybe for us, in our senses :crazy2:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7193314 - 07/18/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Sure, if we forget about math, the universe will collapse ?
Maybe for us, in our senses :crazy2:




It's not about keeping it in memory.
It's about how we got here.


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7193329 - 07/18/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Mathematics is just a measuring technique.
People invented mathematics so we can make the universe discernible to our minds, from what you say it was the other way around :shrug:




The universe invented people to make math discernible to its mind? I don't see why not.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7193921 - 07/18/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Mathematics is just a measuring technique.
People invented mathematics so we can make the universe discernible to our minds




I think all our inventions have just served to cloud reality. Fuck Math! I think we tend to apply math to everything we see, where it is only really applicable in some situations (like architecture or computing). But our labels and definitions become more than tools and overtake our view.

Ten numbers....5 senses...words...definitions...judgments...Wah!


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #7193973 - 07/18/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Ahhh but we've got so far with science.
If we're unable to discern and draw the lines between that and applying numbers in all aspects of our live, it's our own inability. :shrug:
Wanting to rid math just because of that is exactly the same with banning drugs just because there are irresponsible users.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
    #7194228 - 07/18/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

"In the end, we self-perceiving, self-inventing, locked-in mirages are little miracles of self-reference." - Douglas Hofstadter

I suspect the contents of existence may be self-referentially constructed..


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7196103 - 07/19/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
I wonder how Godel felt. :confused:



I don't know how Gödel felt when he proved his famous incompleteness theorem. I can imagine all of the reactions :shocked:, :crazy: or :laugh:. But he didn't seem to be a happy person overall. He was paranoid all his life, and he died from starvation at age 71 when his wife could no longer cook his food, and he refused to eat any other food since it might be poisoned by unknown enemies who wanted to kill him.

Gödel also did some interesting work in theoretical physics: he found a solution to the Einstein field equation (which describes the force of gravity) that contains "closed timelike curves" which are paths through spacetime where the future at some point reconnects with the past, creating a loop in time. This discovery allegedly made Einstein doubt his own theory.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
    #7196171 - 07/19/07 02:35 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If time and space and everything else did not exist before the Big Bang, was 7 a prime number then? Or does 7 require time and space and everything else to exist?

After all, math can describe things that, so far as we know, can't exist.



This used to bug me a lot before the mushrooms taught me that all existence is conditional. So if something like "7" were present in some hypothetical world different from ours, then 7 exists in that world. And if that world's 7 shares all its properties with the number 7 that we know in our world, then they are obviously the same number, and that number's existence is not limited to one particular possible world.

Just like "I" am just one subjective reality chosen out of many different possible ones, so is "our world" just one objective reality chosen out of many different possible ones.


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OfflineEpigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7196704 - 07/19/07 08:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
Quote:

bradley said:
I wonder how Godel felt. :confused:



I don't know how Gödel felt when he proved his famous incompleteness theorem. I can imagine all of the reactions :shocked:, :crazy: or :laugh:. But he didn't seem to be a happy person overall. He was paranoid all his life, and he died from starvation at age 71 when his wife could no longer cook his food, and he refused to eat any other food since it might be poisoned by unknown enemies who wanted to kill him.

Gödel also did some interesting work in theoretical physics: he found a solution to the Einstein field equation (which describes the force of gravity) that contains "closed timelike curves" which are paths through spacetime where the future at some point reconnects with the past, creating a loop in time. This discovery allegedly made Einstein doubt his own theory.




That's interesting. How do you know this ~ did you read biographies or actual works by Godel?

Diploid: I'm also curious how you know your info about Bertrand Russel and Godel.

You guys seem so knowledgeable :ooo:


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
    #7196974 - 07/19/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I have never read any original work by Gödel, just other people's books that explain his famous theorems, and various articles where his name pops up (many articles about "closed timelike curves" will mention Gödel). I started reading biographies about mathematicians after hearing anecdotes about people like Archimedes, Gauss, Kronecker, Ramanujan, etc, and began wondering about the lives of the people behind all these ideas that have become associated with their names.

There is a great collection of short biographies here:

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/BiogIndex.html

And there is so much drama and crazy stuff in these stories, that some things just stick in my memory. Like Gödel starving to death due to paranoia, or Galois who single-handedly invented algebraic group theory and then got killed in a duel over a girl before his 21th birthday. Or Heaviside, who invented the step function (step like in a staircase step) among other things, and used blocks of granite as furniture in his home.


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