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mikebart101
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The evolution of mathematics and reality.
#7189443 - 07/17/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is only a matter of time before our understanding of math evolves to the point of 'everything'. Right now we use math to record reality and predict the behavior of it. The equations have gotten bigger and the problems have gotten near impossible; it is only until we change our basic understanding of it will we ever move further.
Right now we use 10 numerals to represent reality. That's nothing. It seems almost as simple as you can get, for combining these 10 digits allows us to understand what we 'can' understand around us. The more complex the action, the longer the sequence of digits. This is where the fault lies. The simplicity becomes nearly impossible to detect as our reach lengthens.
There will come a day, however, when entire equations are represented with pictures or hieroglyphics, and theory will no longer rely upon numbers interacting with other numbers, but by entire equations reacting together. And math will reach a point of such complexity, that it will become simpler and simpler. There will be no more calculators needed or geniuses to decipher the simplest of actions, but a common understanding of what happens around us. We will see how reality itself is just a motion picture made up of sequential frames, whose foundations are equations comprised of just 10 digits.
Math will become reailty, not just a way of recording it.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
Edited by mikebart101 (07/17/07 06:26 PM)
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Chubba
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. *DELETED* [Re: mikebart101]
#7189527 - 07/17/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChubbaReason for deletion: Deleted
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JackthaTripper
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189551 - 07/17/07 06:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why would we want to abolish the number system?
And how would hieroglyphics make math easier?
Also, how would it become more simplistic (easier to understand) after becoming increasingly complex?
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mikebart101
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Chubba]
#7189578 - 07/17/07 06:55 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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LOL...I'm in my third year of civil engineering. But anyways here I go...
There will come a time when the most complex of math problems is the mixing of colors; i.e the mixing of yellow and blue to create green. That's where math is headed. Right now we try and express entire actions using all digits and operations involved and this is where we are being held back. When you describe a square do you describe it as four equal rays attached together at both ends at 90 degrees as to create a shape, or do you say 'its a square'. This is how math is to evolve. We will no longer be looking at equations but rather at what they represent and how these 'representations' or pictures, colors, shapes, etc. interact with each other. Reality will dictate math and math will dictate reality visually.
Go look at the smoke that comes off a small flame such as a cigarette or cigar. Its very geometric; almost like a rectangular slinky that has been stretched out.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
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Chubba
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. *DELETED* [Re: mikebart101]
#7189589 - 07/17/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChubbaReason for deletion: Deleted
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mikebart101
Bromden



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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Chubba]
#7189627 - 07/17/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well what holds you back when you try and solve a differential equation or some other crap? You get stuck on the basics; the simple algebra even though you understand the difficult part of the problem. This is where math needs to change. I don't know how to explain it anymore except to associate math with a color wheel. Only a few basic colors can create all this. Its all about finding out which equations represent those colors. Einstein tried almost all his life to complete the string theory.
It will be a long time before math gets to this point but I'm pretty sure that this is where its headed.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
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JackthaTripper
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189824 - 07/17/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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What level math classes have you taken?
Unless you soundly understand the fundamental intricacies of modern mathematics I would suggest not theorizing on the future of such subject. You have to understand the fundamental things like algebra in order to comprehend the complex upper level problems. Math is comprehensive the knowledge builds on itself; you'll never get to the top unless you've got a sound bottom.
And representing entire equations with a symbol like 'hieroglyphics' is nothing more than a variable substitution.
I don't get your hypothesis.
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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mikebart101
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: JackthaTripper]
#7189858 - 07/17/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Modern mathematics is comparable to using MS-DOS to understand the universe. It's time for it to evolve to a higher level of simplicity.
And I've had my fair share of math courses. Its my strongest subject. Don't mean to be a douche about it but you asked.
-------------------- So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
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JackthaTripper
MSME!



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Posts: 2,494
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189892 - 07/17/07 08:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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fair share=?
Don't mean to be a douche but you didn't really give an answer.
As for evolving to higher levels of simplicity how is this done? The only way it gets easier for me is to study my ass off and become familiar with the subject matter, but that is no simple task (for me at least).
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Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host
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Diploid
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7189904 - 07/17/07 08:18 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is only a matter of time before our understanding of math evolves to the point of 'everything'
Nope.
A guy named Kurt Godel figured out that not everything that is true can be proved. It's called the Incompleteness Theorems and it fairly freaked out every mathematician on Earth when it was published early last century. It was a landmark result in First Order Logic and unique in that it was not just a mathematical statement inside mathematics, but rather a mathematical statement ABOUT mathematics itself. Lemme see if I can translate it into English. See if this makes sense:
Imagine you're the head librarian of a city with many libraries. You've asked each branch librarian to compile a catalog of all the books in their particular library.
When you receive them all, you find that some librarians listed their catalog in itself, since the catalog is itself a book. Others decided not to list the catalog in itself.
So, now you have two stacks of catalogs, one where they list themselves, and another where they don't.
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Your task is to compile a master catalog of only the catalogs that DO NOT list themselves; a meta-catalog of sorts.
When you finish the meta-catalog of all the catalogs that DO NOT list themselves, you realize that your meta-catalog is incomplete because it's missing itself. Remember that you're compiling a meta-catalog of catalogs that do not list themselves. But the instant you add the meta-catalog to its own list, it becomes incorrect because again remember it's a meta-catalog of catalogs that DON'T list themselves.
So you have a quandary: either the catalog is incomplete (it's missing itself) or it's incorrect (it contains itself).
This self-referential construct is a very deep concept in mathematics and it's at the heart of Godel's theorems. It turns out that no system of mathematical rules can ever be complete because adding the final rule makes the system incorrect.
Weird eh? If there is a Creator, he definitely has a sense of humor.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Epigallo
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7190050 - 07/17/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought that was Bertrand Russel's paradox, developed in 1901. The set of all sets that are not members of themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox
It's definitely the same idea. Who is the original thinker here?
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Diploid
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190089 - 07/17/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Actually, Russel was working on a seminal work at the time called Principia Mathematica in which he was attempting to finally, once and for all, reduce all of mathematics to a foundational logic.
After Russel spent years of work writing hundreds and hundreds of pages of logic that look like wallpaper, Godel came up with Incompleteness which reduced all of Russel's work to nothing.
Russel had a nervous breakdown when he learned of Godel's result and was never as sharp again. In fact, Godel's first paper was titled: On Formally Undecidable Propositions in Principia Mathematica and Related Systems I.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Epigallo
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190148 - 07/17/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is only a matter of time before our understanding of math evolves to the point of 'everything'
Do you mean a time when math evolves to describe everything? Right now the structure of math is very similar to certain observable phenomena. Like predicting projectiles or population growth rates ~ just certain phenomena that have the same structure as the language we call math.
Other phenomena, such as emotions, aren't shaped like the mathematical language, and thus a mathematical description of them becomes extremely complex and difficult. The language of psychology is substituted.
What you are proposing seems to be that math will develop to the point of becoming an all encompassing language. As you have pointed out, however, the building blocks of math don't seem to work for everything. It's possible that a new mathematical building block will allow us to describe different things. I don't see the trend leading in that direction though, that is the part I question.
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Epigallo
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190167 - 07/17/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't understand what it means to reduce math to a foundation of logic. That sucks though...to have a nervous breakdown over a theorem...it sort of baffles me.
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Diploid
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo]
#7190207 - 07/17/07 09:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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He was trying to reduce all of mathematics to one large set of logical propositions that covered everything consistently. For example, one of the things he proved from first principles was that 1 + 1 = 2, and it took over 300 pages!
He didn't freak out over a theorem; he freaked out over the invalidation of his life's work. Pricipia Mathematica was to be his opus mangnum.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Epigallo
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Diploid]
#7190228 - 07/17/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wonder how Godel felt.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Epigallo] 1
#7192107 - 07/18/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Godel was like
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Amber_Glow
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: mikebart101]
#7192227 - 07/18/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly, instead of using symbols?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7192638 - 07/18/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amber_Glow said: I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly, instead of using symbols?
I think we can do already do it and let math freaks do... math?  Why should one wait for "the humanity" to come to the same conclusions? Not to mention that each of us would be waiting for that in different points so it will never happen for the most of us... statistically speaking ( see, we need math too after all).
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Diploid
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Re: The evolution of mathematics and reality. [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7192786 - 07/18/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think someday we will have grown tired of math and decide to deal with reality directly
Without math, reality would not contain computers... or airplanes or medicine or bridges or CD players or...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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