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 luvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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 July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. 
#718270 - 07/02/02 02:50 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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YESTERDAY IN HISTORY ?.. WITHHOLDING. 1943
I missed this hideous anniversary yesterday, July 1st. But, better late than never.
July 1, 1943 was the day the modern era of income tax withholding began. The politicians told the American people that the withholding program would only last until the end of World War II. After the war we would go back to the tried-and-true system of Americans figuring out how much tax they owed at the end of every year and writing a check.
So ? Fifty-nine years ago Americans stopped knowing how much they earned. They started knowing what they ?took home.?
Fifty-nine years ago Americans stopped knowing how much they paid in federal income taxes, they only knew how much they were ?getting back.?
The withholding system has been the magic enabler that has allowed politicians to raise taxes and spending year after year after year without any repercussions from the electorate. When the final history of the destruction of freedom is written, July 1, 1943 will be much-lamented date.
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Here's the link:
http://www.boortz.com/nealznuz.htm
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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 nugsarenice
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#718605 - 07/02/02 06:00 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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So which political party supports removing this statue of the tax law?
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#718659 - 07/02/02 06:30 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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The Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party both support repeal of this statute.
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nugsarenice
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: ]
#718664 - 07/02/02 06:36 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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is that the political party you support?
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Ellis Dee
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 Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#718668 - 07/02/02 06:37 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'de rather pay income tax than property tax even though income tax is more. Too bad we're stuck with both.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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nugsarenice
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#718673 - 07/02/02 06:41 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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What about the other way around. No income tax, but only property, but based on a different scale.
2 problesm are population is constanly changing, and all people are created equal.
So devise a tax that taxes everyone based on their own personal percentage of the world, that they must pay. Based on land, and expanded into income, if you do not own land. Just a thought.
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,664
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#719333 - 07/02/02 11:19 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would rather pay property tax. I pay $1300 a year for my house and I dont own the land, the city does since I live in a historic landmark area. Plus I get $1000 taken out monthly for taxes and at the end of the year I get no where near half of that back.
How many of you pay state and federal tax? I know that some states dont have a state tax, You people are lucky.
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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Ellis Dee
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#719361 - 07/02/02 11:57 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone that owns property or pays rent pays property tax. If you rent it's added in to the cost of the rent you pay. You pay more rent to the owner and he pays the tax with the rent you paid him.
I hate property tax with a passion. The way I view it is that no one that pays property tax owns the land or property they pay the tax on. The property tax is a rent payment government permission to use and occupy the land which you have a deed to. If you don't pay your tax/rent to the city or county then men with guns will force you off of the property and if you resist with force they will kill you. It's just the principle of not owning any property in America that really unnerves me.
It's not the amount of the tax I pay that bothers me as much of the principle of the thing behind it. Now income tax is more fair than property tax because it taxes people based on their ability to pay. Those that can afford more can pay more and those that can afford to pay less pay less. If you make more you pay more and if you make less you pay less. But with property taxes it's based on what you own or posess. If someone with a low income owns 5000 acres he will lose his land because the gov will take it from him for not paying his taxes on it. This has screwed thousands of family farmers out of their land that has been in their families for generations.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#719396 - 07/03/02 12:41 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would rather see a national sales tax with NO exemptions for anyone, business or personal.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Ellis Dee
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#719405 - 07/03/02 12:56 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not even non profits organizations or local school districts buy teaching supplies? How heartless of you!
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#719480 - 07/03/02 03:42 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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A national sales tax that exempts food and medical items would be preferrable to an income tax or a property tax. A government that only sticks to it's constitutionaly defined roles would greatly reduce expenditures.
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,664
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#719517 - 07/03/02 04:34 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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>Not even non profits organizations or local school districts buy teaching supplies? How heartless of you! <
Property taxes ARE what funds local schools. Thats why schools in poor neighborhoods are soo poor, their just isnt as much comeing in from property taxes to fund the schools. Now with Bush slashing federal grant money to states to aid in school programs many schools will suffer over the next few years because they are gona get even less money...
At lest we will have better bombs, less freedom, stricter laws and yet another security force called the Department of Homeland Defence.
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
Edited by GabbaDj (07/03/02 04:35 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: GabbaDj]
#719635 - 07/03/02 06:19 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Where in the constitution or bill of rights does it say the federal government should be in the business of any type of school funding?
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Rono
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#719664 - 07/03/02 06:42 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are few things in the constituiton that the goverment chooses to ignore..."freedom of the press" is a fine example
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#719676 - 07/03/02 06:49 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Really? The way the media here likes to slam Bush and kiss the ass of people who seem to have no purpose in life besides slamming the US, you'd never know it.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Rono
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Posts: 16,259
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#719680 - 07/03/02 06:52 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmmm ...have you heard about the Massacre in Mazar?...No?...Why do you suppose that is?
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (07/03/02 06:52 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#719701 - 07/03/02 07:04 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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The press is still free here. Selective reporting and editorial discretion are not the same as censorship.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: ]
#719704 - 07/03/02 07:06 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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And why do you suppose that they would "choose" not to print an article related to the above?
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#719716 - 07/03/02 07:17 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Luvdemshrooms wrote:
Where in the constitution or bill of rights does it say the federal government should be in the business of any type of school funding?
I believe that the separation of school and state is just as important as the separation of church and state, but Adolph Hitler (example: the Hitler Youth) believed and most leftists in modern America believe the State has a duty to properly form young minds to government standards. I assert that it is a parent's duty to see to the education of their children and if an adult (18 yrs and over) wants an education, it is his/her responsibility to provide it. Of course if we weren't taxed at a rate exceeding that of medieval serfs we would be able to afford to send all our children to the schools of our choice.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#719719 - 07/03/02 07:20 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, I have heard of the alleged US involvment.
It may make you feel better to think the US media is censored, but you would truly have to be a fool to think it is so.
Even the editors of that left wing rag, The NY Times, which is as liberal a rag as exists, would laugh at you for that one.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/03/02 07:31 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#719723 - 07/03/02 07:21 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Rono wrote:
And why do you suppose that they would "choose" not to print an article related to the above?
You'd have to ask them. There may be several factors, personal prejudice being one, not offending advertisers may be another, deciding to go with stories that will grab the attention of the consumers of the news is another example.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#719727 - 07/03/02 07:25 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Or perhaps you mean this one?
Massacre in Mazar-e Sharif
How The Taliban Slaughtered 8000 people in Mazar-e-Sharif
Summary: [1]
This report documents the massacre of civilians and other serious breaches of international humanitarian law committed by the Taliban in Afghanistan in August, 1998. The incident, which occurred in Mazar-i Sharif, a city in northern Afghanistan, represents one of the single worst examples of civilian killings in Afghanistan's twenty-year war where At least 8000 Hazaras were singled out and massacred by the Taliban regime. No foreigners or press were allowed in the city or its environs at the time. Human Rights Watch was the first international human rights organization to interview survivors who have reached Pakistan in the weeks following the massacre.
Human Rights Watch conducted the interviews for this report in Islamabad, Peshawar and Quetta, Pakistan. The eyewitnesses they spoke to included residents of Mazar-i Sharif who were Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek and Hazara. The witnesses had lived in different neighborhoods of the city. Some had stayed in the city for several weeks after the Taliban takeover; others had left within a few days. Most had arrived in Pakistan after several weeks of travel inside Afghanistan.
Their testimonies about the events in Mazar-i Sharif from August 8 through early September are consistent in the depiction of the patterns of attack by the advancing Taliban troops, the systematic nature of the search operations, the sorting of prisoners at the jail, and the transport of prisoners. All of those who remained in the city after the first day separately witnessed summary executions of men and boys as they were being taken from their homes or while being transported to the jail. All of them also heard one or more of Governor Niazi's speeches that, while they varied somewhat in content, reflected consistent themes of anti-Shi'ism and revenge for the 1997 killings.
Human Rights Watch also interviewed sources in nongovernmental organizations and in the diplomatic community who have monitored and documented the events in Mazar. Information provided by these sources is consistent with the patterns described by eyewitnesses
Abductions and Rape of Women:
Human Rights Watch has also received persistent reports that women and girls, particularly in certain Hazara neighborhoods of Mazar-i Sharif, including Saidabad, Karte Ariana, and Ali Chopan were raped and abducted during the Taliban takeover of the city and that their whereabouts remain unknown.
A witness living in Kamaz camp stated that some of the Taliban took young women from the camp at the same time that they were arresting men. She knew of four or five girls who were taken from the camp, all in their early twenties. A witness from the neighborhood of Karte Ariana told Human Rights Watch that she had seen teen-age girls in the area being pushed into the Taliban's Pijaro cars and taken to an unknown destination.
A male medical student who worked and lived in one of the city hospitals for twenty days straight after the takeover stated that he saw one rape case during that time. A Hazara woman, who was a nurse, and her sister had walked to the hospital from Ali Chopan.
"The nurse was in a very bad shape, she had sharp stomach pains. I could not examine her because the hospital was full of Talibs. This was a day before they segregated the hospital and put women in the children's building. I just asked a few questions and finally she said that she was raped by the Talibs. She did not say which ones. We could not talk long with the Talibs watching. I could not do much, I just gave her analgesics."
Another witness tells this story, "An acquaintance of ours came to our house seven or eight days after the takeover. She became ill in our house because she had taken over twenty pills to kill herself, I don't know what kind. We called doctors from the neighborhood who gave her something to wash out her stomach. She lived in Ali Chopan, but her family was staying elsewhere, and she had gone back to check on the house when she was picked up by the Taliban. At first she did not want to tell us anything, but then she said that when she went to their house, the Talibs abducted her and locked her up in a house with twenty to twenty-five other young girls and women. They were raped every night. They were all Hazaras. She was the only one released. One Talib told her that now they are halal [sanctified], and she should go to his parents in Qandahar and wait for him to come and marry her. He gave her a pass and his own identity card and told her to go to the Taliban's headquarters and from there to Qandahar, but instead she escaped."
The difficulties inherent in documenting such attacks on women are many. The refugees from Mazar-i Sharif are scattered throughout Afghanistan and Pakistan. The where abouts of abducted women and girls remain unknown. Rape victims are unlikely to seek medical attention unless their injuries are severe. They are often reluctant to report their assaults because of the shame and stigma that they may bear as a result, and Afghan women coping with upheaval and the loss of family members in particular may fear the added worry of being identified as rape victims. Nonetheless, Human Rights Watch received consistent and reliable reports of abuses against women and thus underscored the need for an investigation that is prepared to examine the full range of reported violations, including sexual violence.
Attacks on Civilians fleeing Mazar:
A source interviewed by Human Rights Watch stated that there were most likely BM-21 Grad (Hail) multiplerocket launchers, commonly known as Katyushas used in the taking of Mazar. An unknown number of civilians on the road were also killed when they were bombed by Taliban airplanes; witnesses stated that the bombs scattered hundreds of grenade-sized munitions over a wide area on the road.
In one such incident, witnesses said that rockets hit an area called Tangi Shadyan on the southern outskirts of the city at about 12:00 p.m., killing at least fifty. Cars and trucks carrying people were struck, and one witness stated that "people were in pieces" along the road. A witness who left immediately when the Taliban arrived told Human Rights Watch that he and his family carried with them nine bodies of a family that had been killed in a rocket attack on the road, including two women, three men, and four small children, and buried them in farmland on the way to the mountains.
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EyeWitness Testimonies : [2]
A witness whose testimony is described as "extremely reliable" by aid officials said most of the victims had been shot in the head, the chest and the testicles. Others had been slaughtered in what he called "the halal way" - by having their throats slit.
One housewife, who has since fled to Pakistan, said the Taliban entered her house and shot her husband and her two brothers dead. Then they cut the men's throats in front of the woman and her children.
Another piece of testimony explained why one Taliban was "very worried he might be excluded from heaven". He had personally shot people in nearly 30 houses, opting to kill them as soon as they opened the door. After killing the men in two homes, he learnt that they were not Hazara but Pashtun. "That he had killed people in 28 Hazara households seemed not to cause him any concern at all," the witness said.
The Human Rights Watch report and other statements identify three Taliban leaders who appear to be guilty of incitement to kill victims purely because of their ethnic origin. They are:
Mullah Manon Niazi, the new Taliban governor of Mazar-e-Sharif - Numerous witnesses heard him make speeches at mosques and on radio inciting hatred of Hazaras. "Wherever you go we will catch you," he said. "If you go up, we will pull you down by your feet; if you hide below we will pull you up by your hair." One witness testified that Niazi personally selected prisoners to be consigned to the death containers.
Mullah Musa, the so-called director of public health - A witness said Musa toured a public hospital looking for Hazara patients to mark out for death. Later that day, the witness heard from a doctor that Musa had taken a group of gunmen to the army hospital, where they had murdered all 20 or so patients, and relatives who had been visiting them.
Maulawi Mohammed Hanif - a Taliban commander who announced to a crowd of 300 people summoned to a mosque that the policy of the Taliban was to "exterminate" the Hazaras.
International aid workers fear the killings are continuing following the recent fall of the central Afghan town of Bamiyan. They have said thousands of people remain unaccounted for.
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Sources:
1- Human Rights Watch: THE MASSACRE IN MAZAR-I SHARIF
2- The Sunday Times: How the Taliban Slaughtered 8000
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#719734 - 07/03/02 07:30 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Rono, on an unrelated matter.... Do you deliberately spell weird wrong in your sig?
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 8 months, 29 days
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#719801 - 07/03/02 08:11 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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US war crime in Afghanistan: Hundreds of prisoners of war slaughtered at Mazar-i-Sharif
By the Editorial Board
27 November 2001
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author
The killing of as many as 800 captured Taliban prisoners Sunday in Mazar-i-Sharif is a war crime for which the American government and military, right up to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and President Bush, are politically responsible. This massacre reveals the real nature of the US attack on Afghanistan. The terrorist attacks of September 11 are but a pretext for a colonial-style war of pillage and mass murder.
In both the savage methods used, and the lies employed to cover up the crime, the butchery at the Qala-i-Janghi fortress recalls the atrocities of the Vietnam War period: the My Lai massacre, the murder of 20,000 Vietnamese in the Phoenix assassination program, the saturation bombing and aerial defoliation with chemical poisons like Agent Orange, the obliteration of the town of Ben Suc, where an American officer declared it was necessary “to destroy the village in order to save it.”
According to both press and US government accounts, US Special Forces and CIA personnel were on the spot in Mazar-i-Sharif, calling in air strikes by helicopter gunships and fighter-bombers and directing the actions of Northern Alliance soldiers as they shot down hundreds of prisoners. German television broadcast footage of Northern Alliance soldiers shooting down from the walls of the fortress-prison into a mass of prisoners below.
Most of those killed, however, were annihilated by US air strikes. Warplanes dropped bombs on the fort and AC-130 helicopter gunships, which can fire 1,800 rounds a minute, were called in by Special Forces spotters in the fortress. Tanks and 2,000 Northern Alliance ground troops were also brought in to complete the destructive work. Throughout the one-sided battle, according to Time journalist Alex Perry, who was on the scene, the 40 or so American Special Forces and British SAS operatives were “running the show,” directing both the air and ground operations.
The barbarous character of the repression was calculated, as indicated by the comments of Northern Alliance spokesmen on Monday. “They were all killed and very few arrested,” said Zaher Wahadat, who confirmed that as many as 800 may have died. Alim Razim, an adviser to Gen. Rashid Dostum, the regional warlord, said that any prisoners still alive wouldn’t be alive for long. “Those who are left over will be dead,” he said. “None of them can escape.”
Northern Alliance and Pentagon officials claimed that the Taliban prisoners had smuggled weapons into the prison under their tunics, then opened fire on the guards and sought to make their escape. But journalists inside the prison at the time said that the prisoners had begun the rebellion by overpowering several guards and seizing their weapons.
It is not even clear that any organized rebellion actually took place. As the British newspaper the Guardian observed, “‘Shot while trying to escape’ is, after all, one of the oldest fibs in the book.” Northern Alliance troops may simply have opened fire on the prisoners, provoking a revolt in self-defense.
The anti-Taliban grouping has a long record of human rights violations, especially at Mazar-i-Sharif, the scene of massacres by both sides during the decade-long civil war in Afghanistan. The International Committee of the Red Cross reported last week that it had found 400 to 600 bodies in Mazar-i-Sharif, apparent victims of summary execution after the Northern Alliance captured the city on November 9.
By Alex Perry’s account, the revolt began when the prisoners, Islamic fundamentalists from Pakistan, Chechnya and various Arab countries, encountered a journalist who began to question them. “Actually, I think it was probably the British journalist,” he wrote on Time’s web site. “It’s merely the sight of a Western face. They’re here to fight a jihad; they see a Western face; they assume that’s who they’ve come to get.”
The prisoners had ample reason to react to the presence of Western personnel in the prison. American CIA interrogators were in the facility to sort out the prisoners, separating from the rank-and-file Taliban volunteers the alleged Al Qaeda leaders, who would be subjected to more intensive interrogation, i.e., torture, followed by execution.
The Taliban prisoners unexpectedly surrendered Sunday in the besieged city of Kunduz. They gave themselves up to General Dostum, whose Uzbek-based force was approaching Kunduz from the west, rather than to General Khan Daoud, the head of the largely Tajik force attacking from the east, possibly because Dostum gave them assurances that they would be repatriated to Pakistan.
There were press reports over the weekend that Dostum had made such a deal, and he was denounced by rival Northern Alliance commanders who wanted the so-called “foreign Taliban” to be placed on trial in Islamic courts or killed on the spot. It is quite likely that the appearance of the Americans at Qala-i-Janghi was the first indication to the Taliban prisoners that they had been double-crossed, and they reacted accordingly.
A massacre on Rumsfeld’s orders
If the exact chain of events that led up to the slaughter at Qala-i-Janghi is still uncertain, the moral and political responsibility for the bloodbath is not. In the days leading up to the massacre, officials of the UN and humanitarian organizations were warning of an impending bloodbath. US officials, on the contrary, made it clear that they wanted as many of the foreign Taliban killed as possible. Their repeated public statements were undoubtedly accompanied by even more bloodthirsty private directives to the Northern Alliance leaders, who hardly needed any encouragement.
There is far stronger evidence that the US government ordered the massacre at Mazar-i-Sharif than any proof that has been produced to substantiate the charge that Osama bin Laden ordered the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. The chronology is as follows:
November 19: Northern Alliance General Khan Daoud suggested that he would be willing to grant foreign Taliban fighters safe passage out of Afghanistan if they would surrender Kunduz, and was negotiating with the Taliban on this proposal.
November 20: US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld vetoed this proposal, declaring, “It would be most unfortunate if the foreigners in Afghanistan—the Al Qaeda and the Chechens and others who have been there working with the Taliban—if those folks were set free and in any way allowed to go to another country and cause the same kind of terrorist acts.” Rumsfeld was repeatedly quoted in subsequent days to the effect that all foreign Taliban should be killed or imprisoned.
November 20: The official spokesman for the US and British forces attacking Afghanistan, Kenton Keith, said the US opposed any negotiated settlement at Kunduz, declaring, “As far as we’re concerned, the only option is surrender.” In a thinly disguised justification for the coming massacre, he claimed, “The coalition has used its best persuasive effort to urge upon the commanders of the Northern Alliance restraint and proper treatment of prisoners,” but, he added, “We are not in a position to guarantee anything.”
November 21: Rumsfeld, in an interview with the CBS program “60 Minutes II,” said he would prefer that Osama bin Laden be killed rather than taken alive. “You bet your life,” he said.
November 22: Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf met with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw in Islamabad, calling for UN intervention to avert a bloodbath. Straw and UN officials issued verbal appeals for both sides to observe “the laws of war”, which include the prohibition against killing of prisoners.
November 23: The New York Times cited statements by “a senior Pentagon official” opposing any release of captured foreign Taliban fighters. “What we care about is that Al Qaeda and Taliban are not capable of continuing to do what they’ve been doing,” the official said.
November 23: The Washington Post reported widespread concern in the Middle Eastern press that Rumsfeld’s comments amounted to “a ‘green light’ from the United States to kill so-called Afghan Arabs.” One commentator wrote that the Northern Alliance was being “encouraged and incited by the Americans” to wreak vengeance on captured Taliban prisoners.
November 24: The Times cited statements by “an American official” that the US Central Command wanted to interrogate non-Afghans taken prisoner at Kunduz and other locations, to gather intelligence on Al Qaeda. “It’s safe to say that CentCom is involved in a lot of aspects, including what they might do if scores of prisoners come out,” said the official, referring to the Central Command. “But we’re looking for as limited a role as possible, with as much access to the prisoners as we can.” This last report indicates that top US military officers were closely monitoring the treatment of the Taliban prisoners. The events in Mazar-i-Sharif did not take them unawares.
The role of the media
The response by the American government and media to Sunday’s bloodbath in Afghanistan has been brazen lying and defense of mass murder in a manner that recalls the worst crimes of Nazism.
US military spokesman Kenton Keith denied Monday that Alliance troops had carried out a massacre, saying the “status” of the prisoners as POWs covered by the Geneva Convention had changed once they “engaged in offensive action” (i.e., once they resisted their own execution).
While press reports have described the beating to death of Taliban prisoners in Kunduz, in addition to the Qala-i-Janghi slaughter, Keith claimed that Northern Alliance troops “have been behaving with restraint. We do not know of any atrocities as part of any widespread pattern.”
This version of events has gone virtually unchallenged in the American press. At Bush’s latest press conference, on Monday morning, the day after the slaughter, there was not a single question on the prison massacre. At Rumsfeld’s press conference later the same day, the question came up only tangentially, and no reporter pursued the issue.
One expression of the cynicism in the American press came four days before the massacre, when the Washington Post published a lengthy front-page review of the military situation. The Post likened American actions in Afghanistan to the US role in the civil war in El Salvador in the 1980s, when “US Special Forces advisers worked with local forces on the ground to hunt down and kill Marxist guerrillas.”
The comparison of Afghanistan to El Salvador, made with evident approval, is perhaps unintentionally instructive, confirming that the US intervention in Central Asia has nothing to do with defending “human rights” and little to do with fighting terrorism. The US counterinsurgency campaign in El Salvador was one of the great crimes of the 20th century. At least 50,000 people were murdered by US-backed death squads. Among the best known victims of these fascist terrorists were the Catholic Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, and four American Maryknoll nuns.
As for the New York Times, its own report on the Mazar-i-Sharif killings not only suggested that the Taliban victims were to blame for their own deaths, but justified future massacres in advance. The Times wrote: “The incident seems certain to deepen the distrust the Northern Alliance feels as it takes control of hundreds, and potentially thousands, of Taliban soldiers.”
The American media functions as a direct and willing instrument of the government’s campaign of military aggression and political provocation. The television networks and daily newspapers are prepared to cover up and justify any crime committed by US forces anywhere in the world.
Who are the terrorists?
Outside the United States, even some leading establishment newspapers have been compelled to take note of the bloodstained character of the American intervention in Afghanistan. The British-based Guardian published a column November 26 by Brian Whitaker that raised the question of whether Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was guilty of war crimes.
Whitaker compared the slaughter of Afghan prisoners to another imperialist atrocity, the massacre of Palestinian refugees at the Sabra and Shatila camps in September 1982, when Lebanese fascist militia entered the camps under the protection of Israeli forces and murdered more than 1,000 men, women and children.
Whitaker wrote: “The link between Sabra/Shatila and many of the killings in Afghanistan is that both are examples of ‘green light’ warfare, where the main protagonists try to escape responsibility by allowing surrogates to do the unspeakable (and politically unacceptable) dirty work while providing discreet encouragement and assistance.”
Ariel Sharon, Israeli defense minister at the time of Sabra and Shatila, was the subject of a parliamentary inquiry and ultimately forced to resign. Several European countries have sought to bring war crimes charges against Sharon, now Israeli Prime Minister, over the 1982 events.
Whitaker writes: “Whether the American defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, will face a similar inquiry remains to be seen, but his recent statements have given the green light for a killing spree. Of the non-Afghan fighters in Afghanistan, he said: ‘My hope is that they will either be killed or taken prisoner.’ It does not appear to matter which.”
Even while using stooge UN tribunals to prosecute particular enemies like former Yugoslav President Milosevic, the US government has intransigently opposed the establishment an International Criminal Court with jurisdiction over war crimes committed by the government officials of any nation. This is not simply the defense of US sovereignty as a point of abstract doctrine. The top officials of the US government are engaged, day by day, in planning, authorizing and executing actions which, by any objective standard, would put them in the dock as war criminals like Hitler, G?ring and Goebbels.
The suicide hijackings that killed nearly 4,000 people at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were a monstrous crime, although the US government has failed to provide any significant evidence of the direct responsibility of Osama bin Laden, let alone the Taliban regime. The September 11 attacks, however, in no way justify the crimes being committed by American imperialism against the people of Afghanistan, and the new crimes already being planned in the Pentagon and CIA against other nations in the Middle East, Central Asia and elsewhere.
After the events at Qala-i-Janghi, it is preposterous to claim that the American intervention in Afghanistan has as its purpose the defense of human rights, or the punishment of terrorists. The US government, with its vast military arsenal and ruthless determination to work its will by force, is the world’s biggest terrorist.
It is the responsibility of the working people, both internationally and within the United States, to build an independent political mass movement to put an end to the imperialist war machine and the profit system that it defends.
And no...I didn't intentionally mis-spell "Wierd"...I frequently mix up the "i" and "e" when I am typing...probably some kind of dyslexia or just plain laziness...I'll correct my sig, thanks for pointing it out.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#720032 - 07/03/02 10:00 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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First.... you didn't provide a source or link.
Second... In reply to:
The response by the American government and media to Sundays bloodbath in Afghanistan has been brazen lying and defense of mass murder in a manner that recalls the worst crimes of Nazism.
So according to this story, the American media did know. So where's the censorship by the government?
In reply to:
One expression of the cynicism in the American press came four days before the massacre, when the Washington Post published a lengthy front-page review of the military situation. The Post likened American actions in Afghanistan to the US role in the civil war in El Salvador in the 1980s, when US Special Forces advisers worked with local forces on the ground to hunt down and kill Marxist guerrillas.
If the Post knew there was a story, they all knew. Perhaps there was no follow up simply because there was no story? If the US media had an opportunity to slam the Bush administration, you can be sure they would have. They hate Bush (most anyway) and would never miss a chance to slam him and the actions of the military if there was involvment of US troops.
Third... If our troops did this with the knowledge of Bush, then he's an even better President than I previously gave him credit for being. I want our government to wipe out as many terrorists and the governments that support and shelter terrorists as possible. As quickly as possible, and as savagely as possible. It will send a nice message.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/03/02 10:01 AM)
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GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,664
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720036 - 07/03/02 10:03 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Freedom of the press belongs to whoever owns the press.
Benjamin Franklin.
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: GabbaDj]
#720040 - 07/03/02 10:06 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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That would of course be true, if the American government owned the press. To suggest they do (if that was the intent of the posted quote) is disingenuous at best, a direct lie at worst.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/03/02 10:06 AM)
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 8 months, 29 days
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720060 - 07/03/02 10:14 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Censorship is the fact the media knew, but couldn't or wouldn't say anything about it. Bush isn't getting "slammed" any more than any other president...but to slam a president over his policies is one thing...but to expose his complicity in 9-11 and related matters is another issue alltogether.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (07/03/02 10:16 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#720105 - 07/03/02 10:30 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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There may be a deliberate silence as you suggest, but that is not the same thing as censorship. Non-leftists in the U.S. have been complaining about the media's leftists slant for decades (deliberately ignoring facts and stories that illustrate the failure of leftist policies, deliberately writing and editing stories to push a particular point of view, commentary disguised as reporting, etc.), but the non-leftists have another term, bias.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 8 months, 29 days
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: ]
#720111 - 07/03/02 10:32 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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If the information is not getting to the people then it is censorship..plain and simple.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#720118 - 07/03/02 10:36 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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look at all the censorship that exists in ameirca's colonies and allies, is only that the u.s. does'nt need censorship to control cows, but eventually we will need what the government needs abroad.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#720121 - 07/03/02 10:37 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is one of the silliest things I have seen you write.
So silly in fact that it's not worthy of further response. I don't think I could do it politely.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 8 months, 29 days
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720122 - 07/03/02 10:37 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sorry nugs...even I have no idea what you are talking about.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Rono]
#720125 - 07/03/02 10:38 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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the internet censorship in australia.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720128 - 07/03/02 10:39 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't know if I should beg you to give up drugs before it's too late, or if I should just say.... Nugs, you're an idiot.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720137 - 07/03/02 10:42 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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beg bitch!
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720144 - 07/03/02 10:48 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Being as you were able to spell two words correctly AND put them in the proper order AND use the proper punctuation... I'll say Bravo!
You should have used a capital B in beg though.
But you're still an idiot.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/03/02 10:49 AM)
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720148 - 07/03/02 10:49 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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how old are you like, 16?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720150 - 07/03/02 10:50 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Actually I'll be 45 in a couple weeks.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720156 - 07/03/02 10:51 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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As in .45 ACP?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: ]
#720170 - 07/03/02 10:58 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, but among my "collection" is a Ruger P-90DC .45 ACP.
Fun gun.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/03/02 11:00 AM)
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720190 - 07/03/02 11:05 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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you have a picture?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720211 - 07/03/02 11:13 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why? Want a date?
Sorry but I don't go that way.
And after seeing what happened to the last unpopular person that posted a picture here, I think I'll paass.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720217 - 07/03/02 11:15 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd take a date,, if you offering to take me out to eat,, but I just wanted to see the gun, I don';t know much about them, I have never seen any besides cops guns, and I have never fired one. Plus the picture in your avator leaves nothing to want to see.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720241 - 07/03/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
I'd take a date
I'm actually left speechless and a bit queasy!
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720263 - 07/03/02 11:33 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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me too!
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720277 - 07/03/02 11:40 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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so is it a date then? 
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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nugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: Innvertigo]
#720283 - 07/03/02 11:42 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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were' going to go shoot fish
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: nugsarenice]
#720295 - 07/03/02 11:46 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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What have you got against Abe Vigoda?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: ]
#720393 - 07/03/02 12:25 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Abe's voice annoys me. Is he even still alive?
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Anonymous
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Re: July 1, 1943.... a sad day indeed. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#720450 - 07/03/02 12:58 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have no idea. I always thought was a walking corpse, so he might have already been dead when they made Barney Miller.
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