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Invisibleroquet
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50/50 casing without calcium carbonate
    #7181959 - 07/16/07 01:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I cased with 50/50 peat/verm and had small fruits. I've just found out peat is acidic and should be buffered with calcium carbonate.

If I can't get any calcium carbonate am I better off casing with 50/50 without a buffer or just use 100% verm?

It was my first grow and I wonder if acidic casing was partly to blame for the small fruits. (Shallow 100% wbs sub probably didn't help.)

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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: roquet]
    #7181973 - 07/16/07 01:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

just use 100% verm


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Invisibleroquet
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: sketchydelux]
    #7181984 - 07/16/07 01:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I've got a cake tin of bulk substrate in the FC which I cased with 50/50 and no buffer.

Is there anything I can do to help it?
It's got small patches of myc coming through in a few places.
Should I try and take off the casing layer? Or just let it be?
I've got a few egg shells. Anything other household supplies I could use for a buffer before I can get my hands on some calcium carbonate?

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Offlinexaxphaanes
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: roquet]
    #7182006 - 07/16/07 02:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

verm by itself is the worst possible casing i could imagine.live and learn there really isnt anything you can do about now other than learn from the experience and do it correctly next time.


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Invisibleroquet
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #7182032 - 07/16/07 02:28 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

so is verm by itself worse than verm and peat without a buffer?

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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #7182081 - 07/16/07 03:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xaxphaanes said:
verm by itself is the worst possible casing i could imagine.live and learn there really isnt anything you can do about now other than learn from the experience and do it correctly next time.




Worst? There are certainly worse. Verm, as long as it's not coarse, is a great moisture reservoir and shoddy-to-passable in terms of aiding pin development. Nonetheless, when I've been reduced to using a verm casing for say, a BRF cake, I've managed to squeeze almost all the possible fruits out in the first flush (pictured below).



Really bad photo of a single 10oz BRF cake producing a 7.5 dry gram first flush--results pretty much typical. The 7.5 includes the fact that some of these fruits were allowed to mature a total of another 10 hours or so after this photo, which was taken when the fully-mature fruits were harvested. I know, there's no scale. Better photos are, as always, stored on my digi, but lacking the right USB cord my celly cam will have to do.

Second and final flush after a dunk was just shy of two grams. After another dunk, only a few straggler aborts were produced, indicating to me that the substrate was fully spent of nutrients. This means that the verm produced such a suitable microclimate for pin development that more than 70% of possible fruits were achieved in the very first flush.

Doesn't seem so bad to me. A lesson, as always, that just because something isn't the best doesn't make it half bad, no matter what people will tell you. Verm is a totally decent casing material, in a pinch, and is exceptionally resistant to acquiring contamination.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: roquet]
    #7182082 - 07/16/07 03:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

roquet said:
so is verm by itself worse than verm and peat without a buffer?




Peat without a pH additive of any sort is trich paradise. I say verm in a heartbeat.

Xax and I have given this contradictory advice before. You'll have to recognize that this isn't a matter of consensus, but of opinion. I'd rather take decent initial yields with no extra contamination risk than have my whole tray go to shit from some trich.

Even if each flush isn't perfect because verm isn't an ideal pin developer, your tray is more likely to last for several flushes if you use pure verm, and thus likely to produce a higher total yield. That's my assessment, anyway.

As an alternative, I know you said you don't have access to gypsum, but do you have access to hydrated lime? A lot of grocery stores carry lime, because it's used for pickling. I'm sure you can find it at your local nursery, or in your home depot nursery section, or something. It's a really common lawn and garden additive.

Gypsum raises pH and buffers it. Lime (calcium hydroxide) is used in lower concentration to just raise it. You don't absolutely need gypsum with 50/50, but you do at least need lime.

You can also get calcium carbonate from eggshells in a pinch. Save them up.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/16/07 03:14 AM)

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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: roquet]
    #7182092 - 07/16/07 03:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xaxphaanes said:
verm by itself is the worst possible casing i could imagine.live and learn there really isnt anything you can do about now other than learn from the experience and do it correctly next time.




word? :rolleyes:


welp i enjoy my pinsets


Quote:

roquet said:
so is verm by itself worse than verm and peat without a buffer?




naw peat bogs are very acidic verms ph is actually 7.6 to 8.3 according to the first site that popped up when i googled


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: sketchydelux] * 1
    #7182097 - 07/16/07 03:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Nice pinset, though those suckers needed some more moisture or FAE or something.

Glad to see someone else has nice pinsets with pure verm, though.


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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7182122 - 07/16/07 03:48 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

figgusfiddus said:Peat without a pH additive of any sort is trich paradise.



So the risk of not having a buffer is contams rather than stunted growth from acidity? My wbs cased with 50/50 isn't contam'ed but doesn't have any fruits much over 1.5 inches.



(As mentioned, there are other sub-optimum conditions which could well be responsible.)

I'm going round home depot and the garden centre tomorrow so hopefully I'll get lucky. Problem is I don't speak the language here (and they don't even use the Roman alphabet which makes reading labels difficult or impossible) so I show my google translation printouts and either they take me to it or start jabbering away and it's time to go...

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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: roquet]
    #7182128 - 07/16/07 03:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Wow. You didn't take up that one poster's offer of moving to Romania in order to grow him shrooms, did you? Haha.

Mushrooms love acidity. In fact, substrates are often made more acidic with coffee or coffee grounds to aid in colonization. They like acidic casings, too, but peat and other casing materials are naturally very prone to trichoderma infection. As a result, most people suggest that A) you pasteurize, rather than sterilize casings, to prevent easy takeover by a competitor organism, and B) you adjust casing pH over 7 to dissuade any unfriendly molds from taking hold. Cubensis has a greater tolerance for high pH (7-8) than trichoderma does, even though both would prefer to grow at 6-6.5.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7182129 - 07/16/07 03:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also, your fruits are very pretty, but low on FAE. Skinny, twisty-turny fruits tend to indicate high CO2 levels. More fanning or (ideally) some automated FAE are suggested.


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Offlinexaxphaanes
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7182131 - 07/16/07 04:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You are wrong verm is the worst casing layer.I never said that an acidic casing layer is better i said live and learn and do it correctly next time.use verm as a last resort but you will get diminished yields from tests that i have done with 12 quart trays in a greenhouse.


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Offlinexaxphaanes
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7182133 - 07/16/07 04:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

double post.


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"Anything i say is fictional"
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Edited by xaxphaanes (07/16/07 04:06 AM)

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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #7182135 - 07/16/07 04:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xaxphaanes said:
You are wrong verm is the worst casing layer.I never said that an acidic casing layer is better i said live and learn and do it correctly next time.use verm as a last resort but you will get diminished yields from tests that i have done with 12 quart trays in a greenhouse.




what was your conclusion? what do you use now to case?

if it was upto me i would use pure coir but over the years having verm for pf cakes on hand dosent merit shopping for another item


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Invisibleroquet
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: sketchydelux]
    #7182137 - 07/16/07 04:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

just remembered Ryche Hawk's 50/50 casing tek does say lime and oyster shell increases fruit size:
Quote:

The mushrooms also seem to grow much bigger this way being they have a stronger base into the mycelium network.



(as well as reduce contamination).

I've improved FAE and dunked since that pic. Fruits looking *slightly* bigger. Waiting for the veil to break before picking the latest ones (hope that's righ).

Now just fingers crossed the bulk sub doesn't contam.

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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #7182146 - 07/16/07 04:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xaxphaanes said:
You are wrong verm is the worst casing layer.I never said that an acidic casing layer is better i said live and learn and do it correctly next time.use verm as a last resort but you will get diminished yields from tests that i have done with 12 quart trays in a greenhouse.




I wasn't talking to you about acidity, I was talking to him. That was a different matter entirely. The only thing I said to you about acidity is that pure verm is better than 50/50 without a pH buffer, because the latter will give you a trich attack way too often to make it worthwhile.

And I don't care if you say I'm wrong. Above pic evidences more than 1/4oz of shrooms from one flush from one BRF cake that disagree with you. I've used verm plenty of times--it's not the BEST, but it's not crap either. Use it before you use 50/50 without pH additives, because 50/50 without pH uppers is going to turn your GH into a trich factory.

Casing layers don't determine yields anyway--you can get the same total yield out of an uncased substrate, it'll just take you two or three extra flushes and the risk of contamination that comes with. Casing is for moisture supply and helping to form good pinsets, NOT for a total yield increase. The only thing that will increase total yield is more or better substrate. Casings just nudge fruiting along--they don't increase your gross yield at all.

In other words, your first flush (and each after, until nutrients run out) will be bigger with a better casing material. No shit, sherlock! I never said verm was as good as 50/50+, but it's certainly not the worst casing material. I'm not saying you're all-out wrong in principle, just that you're exaggerating the hell out of the supposed awfulness of pure verm. I've made it do pretty damn well, and so have lots of other people. It works, it's just not ideal... which is what I said in the first place.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/16/07 04:31 AM)

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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: roquet]
    #7182148 - 07/16/07 04:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

roquet said:
just remembered Ryche Hawk's 50/50 casing tek does say lime and oyster shell increases fruit size:
Quote:

The mushrooms also seem to grow much bigger this way being they have a stronger base into the mycelium network.



(as well as reduce contamination).

I've improved FAE and dunked since that pic. Fruits looking *slightly* bigger. Waiting for the veil to break before picking the latest ones (hope that's righ).

Now just fingers crossed the bulk sub doesn't contam.




Oyster shell might help fruit size/yield, but not because it's a buffer. In addition to upping and buffering pH, it's also a nice nutrient additive. pH is not closely related to fruit size, so long as it stays within reasonable bounds (6-8 or so). It's certainly not related to total possible yield.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/16/07 04:33 AM)

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OfflineLVL12
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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7182182 - 07/16/07 05:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

In My opinion, I'd say verm is better than nothing, but pasturized 50/50 is better than straight verm. I get this opinion from a side by side comparison i did personally, it was really more the (uberlazy casing vs a 50/50 casing) I have a picture of it here, but there were other factors involved as well such as preparing one casing on a jack daniels night and the other casing prepared a few days later in a better mindframe.

More likely your small fruits are related to a shallow wbs casing, I'm currently working with WBS and learning its ins and outs, and i've learned that WBS really should be spawned to poo or coir, on its own its definatly not the greatest substrate (small fruits, few flushes)


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Disclaimer: Posts from LVL12 are strictly for entertainment and are a work of fiction, nothing written or said by LVL12 should in interpreted as truth, fact or by their literal definitions or translations. Anyone who reads/listens to these words does so at their own risk, parental discretion is advised.

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Re: 50/50 casing without calcium carbonate [Re: LVL12]
    #7186754 - 07/17/07 04:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Casing layers don't determine yields anyway--you can get the same total yield out of an uncased substrate, it'll just take you two or three extra flushes and the risk of contamination that comes with. Casing is for moisture supply and helping to form good pinsets, NOT for a total yield increase. The only thing that will increase total yield is more or better substrate. Casings just nudge fruiting along--they don't increase your gross yield at all.




lol you should read some of the posts by old hands and see if this thought will hold up lol you have some reading to do bro no offense.


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