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Offline2end4
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phalaris grass used in substrate????
    #7179928 - 07/15/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Any theories or experience with adding phalaris grass??? I know adding tryptophan could be benificial.


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7180114 - 07/15/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

im pretty sure the shrooms wouldnt absorb the DMT out of it. would be bad ass if they could

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OfflineMYSTIQUE
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: moon_glue]
    #7180670 - 07/15/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry I asked this and RR shot it down He said they don't have circulatory systems they don't absorb stuff like that there was more reasons. Then I got some why don't you just take the dmt out yourself and not waste it answers.


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OfflineBipolarRocket
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7180789 - 07/15/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm still confused as to why someone hasn't put up a Tek for introducing tryptamines into the substrate, mushrooms can effectively absorb tryptamines and change them into a derivitive which will be metabolised during digestion. (In some college biology book...)

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7180817 - 07/15/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

last time i checked, you had to inject or smoke dmt.. swallowing it does nothing. and last time i checked on shrooms, people never inject it for obvious reasons, and smoking it doesnt do anything. so it would be pretty pointless to ingest a mushroom that has dmt in it right?


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Offlineboneynerd
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: deformedreality]
    #7181037 - 07/15/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ive heard from another grower, who uses redwood bark in his substrate it increased his potency. but i dont know how much, or if it was just his strain is good and the dmt was not doing anything.

my opinion, is extract the dmt. extract psilocybin... eat/drink the psilocybin then smoke the dmt.. that would be the most effective way to go into orbit i suppose. but i dont want to venture their, they are each in their own category and would be a science experiment on your brain lol.


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OfflineBipolarRocket
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: boneynerd]
    #7181112 - 07/15/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

No, DMT has a good oral bioavailability. 2end4, go for it. Although... I don't know... I wouldn't like 5-MeO in there... you could always extract the DMT and put it into the substrate, though.

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OfflineMYSTIQUE
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: BipolarRocket]
    #7181630 - 07/15/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BipolarRocket said:
No, DMT has a good oral bioavailability. 2end4, go for it. Although... I don't know... I wouldn't like 5-MeO in there... you could always extract the DMT and put it into the substrate, though.




If you put good DMT in a sub you should be kicked in the nuts.


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7181740 - 07/16/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i was thinking that too, why waist already extracted dmt..


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: deformedreality]
    #7181756 - 07/16/07 12:14 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's a waste, yeah, unless you don't want to go through the process of extraction.

I respect RR to no end, but I have read in advanced (from a lot of users, ones who seem to know what they're talking about) that shrooms can theoretically convert DMT into 4-Hydroxy-DMT (psilocin). RR's approach tends to be one of, "Why bother? Just grow some fucking shrooms. I'll show you how." If you prefer experimentation, sure, go for it, but don't be too disappointed if it doesn't work.

RR's response about circulation had to do with someone trying to blow smoke into an FC. Which is retarded.

Shrooms don't have a "circulatory system" in the sense that we do, but that doesn't mean they don't circulate their resources. If they didn't, they couldn't grow. That shrooms don't have a circulatory system is RR's standard response to questions like this, and as much as I do respect him I think it's short-sighted. Shrooms acquire all kinds of substances through the substrate--carbohydrates, moisture, toxins--and there's no reason an active chemical couldn't be one of them.

But, of course, there are no guarantees, and since most of us don't have an empirical method for testing potency at hand, we can't test it reliably.

In my mind, that's what it comes down to: we're unable to see whether or not it's working when we do it, so we can't really experiment with it effectively.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/16/07 12:15 AM)

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7181795 - 07/16/07 12:25 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the fact that shrooms effect everyone differently every time they do them might be the cause of not being able to determine potency or even if adding dmt did anything. If something works, why fix it?


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: deformedreality]
    #7181839 - 07/16/07 12:39 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Right. Which is the traditional approach.

There are many types of growers. Some are interested in theory, some are purely interested in the practice. I like both a lot, but I tip toward the first. As a result, I'd fucking love to know whether a DMT additive can be synthesized into the shroom's natural actives.


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7181866 - 07/16/07 12:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

im just as bad, i have 6 jars i just inoculated (with lc) today that the water put in the verm/brf mix had a crushed up centrum performance pill mixed in with it and a teaspoon of honey. just for kicks and giggles, cause i already had 18 jars going, might as well make it an even 24 and get some curiousity out of the way.


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: deformedreality]
    #7182030 - 07/16/07 02:26 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If you're going to experiment, be sure to record yields and perceived potency.


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Offline2end4
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7182720 - 07/16/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The main reason im curious is because 5htp and tryptamine are known to increase potency. On top of that, I read a plant analysis that states precursors to DMT, like MT , gramine,and MDT(to name a few) at different stages of growth in different concentrations. Im open to the idea because of the different things ive read on the subject (online or in print). I know potency can vary many ways due to substrates and strains, but ive read it can reproduce the agent in "4-meo" form. Anyone had any experience with just 5HTP or tryptamine??????


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7182728 - 07/16/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

A scientist (only one, I think) has gone on the record saying it works.

A few people have reported fiddling with it, but none of them seem to have adopted it as a regular technique, and none I've seen have stated a noticeable difference in potency. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, but it might mean it's impractical.


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Offline2end4
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7182735 - 07/16/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I fully agree with you figgusfiddus, do you believe that blueing of mycelium can be an indication of potency???


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7183213 - 07/16/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Technically bluing is more an indicator of psilocin content. As I understand it, Gartz's supplementation of tryptamine HCL to substrate produced an increase in psilocin content and a decrease in psilocybin content... so you'd see a lot of bluing there, in theory, but a lot of the actives you're seeing would oxidize, especially if you dried the fruits.

In other words, if you're seeing blue in any circumstance, it could just mean you're seeing actives that were present, but which have now oxidized away. Typically though, a bluer fruit is a more potent one, because so many actives wouldn't be oxidizing away if they weren't present in higher proportion to begin with.


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Offline2end4
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7183510 - 07/16/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for your input Figgus........your thinking is right up my alley!:thumbup:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7183989 - 07/16/07 04:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

However, some of the most potent mushrooms I've ever eaten barely bruised at all. Other, non-active species also bruise blue, so I'm not too sure it's an indication of anything.

I've made many side by side grows with all sorts of supplements and haven't found a single one that I can document an increased potency from. At one time or another, I've tried everything in this thread, as well as just about everything ever suggested in the other duplicate threads on the subject, as well as dozens of substrate materials. Personally, none of them gave even a percieved increase in potency. Those were the experiments that led me to believe potency in mushrooms to be genetic.
RR


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7184315 - 07/16/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

My take on it, now that I have some more experience is this:

MOST growers aren't using isolated strains, they're using spore syringes, which means multi-spore, which means multi-GENES.

I found, for instance, that recent Golden Teacher grows I had were either described as AMAZING or CRAPPY...same substrate, same syringe, different "trips." One casing did have coffee added...for awhile I thought that it was the coffee that altered perception.

On the other hand, everyone that I've shared my Lipa Yais with has evaluated them as much different/stronger than same dose of my Ecuadors. Didn't matter if they had coffee or not (or blood, or other adds I tried). And those shrooms have very different phenotypes as well.

This would explain why additives would seem to make a difference, when in reality, the genes are doing the work.

I think fruiting, flushing, mycelial growth, etc. can be manipulated, but potency is genetic...which is why we all should spend more time learning agar techniques and isolation rudimentaries instead of looking for a magic additive for potency.

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: brodus24]
    #7185760 - 07/16/07 10:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well.....that sums it all up.
NOT!!!!!!:mad2:


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: 2end4]
    #7185779 - 07/16/07 10:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

There are a thousand human factors that affect the nature and severity of a trip. This is why human tests for potency are not effective whatsoever. Empiricism is a must. Anyone who doesn't rely on it is blabbing out their sphincter.

Just because spores from the same multispore inoculation don't have the same genes doesn't mean they aren't related. Generally speaking, they have very similar qualities. They are, in a sense, the offspring of self-impregnation. Who would be more genetically like you (aside from an identical twin) than the kids you had with yourself?


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7185804 - 07/16/07 10:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I had kids with my self state came and took em away said it just wernt natural .


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Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
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I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt                         
Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt
Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet
Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat,

:onfire:DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!:onfire:

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7185811 - 07/16/07 10:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Then they put them on a reality show. :frown: I know this story.


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7185843 - 07/16/07 11:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MYSTIQUE said:
I had kids with my self state came and took em away said it just wernt natural .




Next time just teach em to swim and than leave that at a beach far away

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: Blutjager]
    #7185869 - 07/16/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

lol


--------------------
Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
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I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt                         
Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt
Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet
Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat,

:onfire:DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!:onfire:

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7187031 - 07/17/07 07:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:LOL!!:tongue:


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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7187457 - 07/17/07 10:22 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

figgusfiddus said:
Just because spores from the same multispore inoculation don't have the same genes doesn't mean they aren't related. Generally speaking, they have very similar qualities. They are, in a sense, the offspring of self-impregnation. Who would be more genetically like you (aside from an identical twin) than the kids you had with yourself?




I know exactly what a multi-spore inoculation is.

In every family there are smart kids and dumb kids, short kids and tall kids. They all have very similar DNA.

In this case, though, we want to CLONE the smart tall kids.

That's why advanced growers isolate.

Its the only way to assure have consistency.

If you're doing multi-spore, additive "research" is moot because you aren't controlling for genetic variation.

Edited by brodus24 (07/17/07 10:52 AM)

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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: brodus24]
    #7188611 - 07/17/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

No kidding. I'm just saying it's not a complete mixed-bag, as so many posters would have you believe. I think it was Mankey who kept going on a rant about how multispore means "random genes" a few months ago, which of course is a complete exaggeration. A specific multispore mushroom will have a lot more in common with its parent than a non-parent, genetically, which is the whole principle behind the isolation of strains--which are distributed as spores. A cube is a cube, yes, but it's not exactly like every other cube. That's all I was trying to stress.

Anyway, this is all moot. Most people who do serious testing with additives already use clones--if they're not cloning, they're just dicking around. I wasn't arguing with you there.

The much, much bigger problem is a lack of reliable, empirical methods of testing for active content. As it is, all we have at our disposal is crude extraction, which is not likely to be consistent at all. You can't tell how strong a sample is just by dosing it, either. The very nature of the drug is that it skews your perception beyond a reliable level, which is to say nothing of other outside factors like absorption rate (which will be skewed by food and liquids in the stomach), dessication method, and who knows what else. Every trip is different, and that means it would take a really "dedicated" tester to even get a hint of which is truly stronger.

Until we have some method of testing a sample reliably, we don't and won't have an effective way to determine potency. As it is, the only way it could be done reliably (without equipment like Gartz's) would be with a very large sample of test subjects and a double-blind, which would in turn only determine relative potency, meaning it would have to be done over and over and over to actually get a superior product. This is complicated by the fact that the mushrooms are, in most places, quite illegal.

Most importantly, if we can't determine potency, we really can't determine genetic potency or additive potency effectively. In other words, strain selection is more or less guesswork... which is why I haven't seen a huge variation from strain to strain. From print to print, yes--strain to strain, no.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/17/07 03:35 PM)

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OfflineMYSTIQUE
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7188808 - 07/17/07 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

OK once you get the DMT into the shrooms if its possible what are you going to do with these DMT shrooms? 60mg DMT oral is said to be around LSD. But you need a MAOI for them to work but now you are making the actives in the shrooms stronger so you will want around half as much shrooms as you normally take. So you will need around 40mg DMT in each gram (if you take 3 grams most of the time without a MAOI). So for all that work ya still gotta take a MAOI and watch your diet for a week.


--------------------
Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
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I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt                         
Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt
Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet
Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat,

:onfire:DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!:onfire:

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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7188824 - 07/17/07 04:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed.

We need someone who works at a university or is a chemist who could run GC/MS or HPLC equipment and get us some data.

They do it with cannabis all the time.

Cannabis is popular enough that they have home tests for the various cannabnoids:

http://everyonedoesit.co.uk/html/cannalyse__cannabis_fingerprint_amp_thc_test_kit_3524.htm

Wish we had that for psylocibin.


Or we could pool funds and purchase testing--there are even some labs that accept samples of all sorts of legal and illegal (or unknown) substances and will analyze for possible adulterants.

Here's one I've used in the past:

http://www.rtp-labs.com/

Take a look at this report for cannabis:


And this report for a steroid:
http://www.discountanabolics.com/images/h-drol-hplc.pdf

I'm surprised no one has come up with a test kit. It would be a big money maker on this site and many others.

I mean, they have E test kits that indicate the level of E in a pill:
http://drugs.greenparty.org.uk/

And a specific immunoassay for the detection of the hallucinogen psilocin in body fluids is described in this article:

Albers C, Köhler H, Lehr M, Brinkmann B, Beike J. Development of a psilocin immunoassay for serum and blood samples. Int J Legal Med, 2004; 118(6):326-31.

Seems like an enterprising soul would create a test similar to pH.

In the meantime, we could pool resources and do a monthly testing with a lab.

On the other hand, it might work to debunk the "boutique: shroom strains, so maybe some fear it?

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Offlinebrodus24
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Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #7188843 - 07/17/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

First of all, Psilocin is 4-HO-DMT, so  WHY NOT GROW Panaleous or any of the uber-potent shrooms.  Is the idea to create an edible drug that causes both the DMT trip and the 4-HO-DMT trip?  Why not just focus on making a more potent mushroom?

Second, WHY NOT JUST SMOKE THE PHALARIS AND THEN EAT THE SHROOMS!

That's what I used to do :smile:

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Posts: 128
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: phalaris grass used in substrate???? [Re: brodus24]
    #7188861 - 07/17/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If they can make this for weed, why not shrooms?

Cannabis Fingerprint & THC Test Kit

The Alpha-Nova Diagnostics Cannalyse fingerprint kit uses high-resolution Thin-Layer Chromatography (TLC) method of analysis. Using this kit you can profile any sample of cannabis plant, whether leaf or solid, revealing relative levels of the various active chemicals, as well as the genetic origin of the strain. Supplied with high quality laboratory-grade apparatus, the kit is designed for high accuracy and reliability.

This kit indicates concentrations of various cannabinoids, such as CBC, CBD, CBG, CBN, THCV & THC, and is supplied with information describing their individual physiological effects, allowing the user to choose different strains for any intended application.

The kit includes everything required to make a full fingerprint of your favourite strains, with full instructions and analysis charts. You can also calculate the relevant concentrations of cannabinoids and quality of THC, and the whole test can be completed within 30 minutes.

The kit is available in a 10 test and 50 test versions.

More info

Kit Includes:
All testing liquids, Wooden Sample base, Testing Plates, Test tubes, Pipettes and capillary tubes, Latex Gloves, Tea light candle, Sample Jar, Testing Chart
Safety:
None of the contents are to be consumed or are to come into contact with bare skin. In case of reaction, please contact your doctor immediately.

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