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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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i just saw Sicko
    #7176969 - 07/15/07 12:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

And I have some questions...

First as a Canadian I found several misleading things in the film.

In one part they have a bunch of american news clips that talk about long waiting times for medical procedures in Canada. Then Micheal Moore goes to a medical clinic in the emergency waiting room and asks how long people had to wait. This is not the same thing because this is basically a "minor emergency" room.

Hip replacements and stuff like that do take a long time in Canada. I'm sure in the US if you have money you could get these procedures as fast as you can be assessed (provided you have enough money).

All in all it was pretty interesting movie though very biased like all Micheal Moore's movies are.

One thing he mentions is life expectancies a lot. For example Canada, Cuba, England and France have higher life expectancy. Well how much of that has to do with the higher infant mortality rate in the US. As a natural skeptic I would like to know more than "look at all these countries with free medicare that have higher life expectancy than the US"

I mean it could be that Americans don't live as long because they are fatter and less healthy. In other words it could be the preventative things and not free medicare that are why they live longer.

BTW I had no idea how HMOs worked going into the movie. How accurate are the descriptions in the movie? Personally what was described really frightened me, especially the part with the Nixon tapes where they talk about how the entire purpose is to "minimize care and make money"

Almost sounds evil. BTW sorry if this has been posted about a hundred other times if there is a good thread please point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7177296 - 07/15/07 02:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

its not like your gonna die in a matter of minutes if your waiting for a hip replacement...OTOH..in the US..patients that will die in a matter of minutes without immediate medical treatment are routinely denied such treatment if they cant pay for it and die as a result.. still others that do get it will be drowning in debt for the rest of their lives..and so will their children and grandchildren...

personally..ive been lucky enough to have been in a foreign country on more than one occasion when i became seriously ill and required hospitalization...and contrary to popular neocon myth..ppl dont die waiting in line with socialized medicine.. but rather its done by triage (unless..of course..you swallow a billiard ball..in which case you must go to the end of the queue)...again..this is based my own experience with such systems...

however..you are quite correct in pointing out that shorter longevity in the US is not entirely the fault of our less-than-stellar healthcare system...every 10 minutes another american gets spewed out onto the highway as a pile of minced flesh.. and we send our kids to get blown up in iraq in order to make that possible...as if that werent bad enough..the "war on drugs" has us shooting at each other on the streets..killing tens of thousands every year.. and the 2 million plus more that dont get killed end up in prisons that will greatly shorten their life expectancies...needless to say..all of the above will take more years off our lives compared to other countries where such conditions dont exist..at least not to that magnitude...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7177920 - 07/15/07 06:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
First as a Canadian I found several misleading things in the film.




Misleading things in a Micheal Moore movie...?  I'm shocked!  :smirk:

Quote:

adjust said:
I mean it could be that Americans don't live as long because they are fatter and less healthy. In other words it could be the preventative things and not free medicare that are why they live longer.




Exactly.  Us Americans eat garbage, don't exercise, and work long hours.  That's why we tend to die a few years younger than other people.

Quote:

adjust said:
BTW I had no idea how HMOs worked going into the movie. How accurate are the descriptions in the movie?




HMO's definately can pull some shady shit sometimes.  But, everybody who I know that has had to use their health insurance never got fucked over like the people in Sicko did.  I surmise that the examples that Moore pulled out are extreme cases.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7177984 - 07/15/07 07:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
HMO's definately can pull some shady shit sometimes. But, everybody who I know that has had to use their health insurance never got fucked over like the people in Sicko did. I surmise that the examples that Moore pulled out are extreme cases.




There were a couple really shitty deals in that movie. For example in one part a little girl who went deaf due to some disease got a coclear implant in one ear and this was covered by the HMO. However, they refused to put another implant in the second ear.

Why would you approve someone for an implant in only one ear? Other than to save money. That's almost like if someone had both eyes injured but the HMO would only treat one since one eye is good enough to get around.

I would really hope that these are extreme cases.

I have a couple relatives who paid for medical stuff in the states and they really liked that system since they have the money to afford what they wanted. I think they were getting MRI scans or something.

BTW annapurna I would still like a better explanation why the US has a lower life expectancy. My guess would be heart disease and stroke, but it could also be infant mortality. When a baby dies they still count as a person only they only lived zero years so if enough die this can bring down life expectancy. That is why a lot of third world countries have such low life expectancy (with the exception of countries with high amounts of aids).


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7178399 - 07/15/07 10:00 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Like Randal said, he hunted down some extreme cases. I've never known anybody thats been fucked over by HMO's either. Quite the opposite actually. :shrug: Michael Moore's documentary's should be taken with a grain of salt. They are good for entertainment value but nothing more. They are all very biased, narrow, and are doctored up. For example, note that a lot of times it does not show his face when he's asking somebody a question. He could ask one question and doctor in another very easily.


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #7178791 - 07/15/07 01:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

">I mean it could be that Americans don't live as long because they are fatter and less healthy. In other words it could be the preventative things and not free medicare that are why they live longer."

That was the point.

Also, i am someone who knows people who are fucked over by HMOs. As well, i just don't believe in a system where people are denied care because of their socio-economic class. For many a simple medical necessity would mean economic disaster. You don't have to be a right winger or a left winger to recognize the dire situation many people face when in other countries this brink is eliminated. i saw the movie and thought it was excellent but don't listen to me...i'm (que scary music) a liberal.


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OfflineTrepiodge
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7178975 - 07/15/07 02:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

For all the people who complain about HMOs and push for a government 'solution' of nationalized health care, HMOs are a result of Federal legislation. Any government 'solution' will be ill thought out, filled with political compromise and born of political back room deals. If you think health care is bad now, wait till the feds get complete control of it. They've already fucked it up. If an auto shop screws up your power steering, do you have them work on your breaks to make your car safer?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7179049 - 07/15/07 02:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:BTW annapurna I would still like a better explanation why the US has a lower life expectancy. My guess would be heart disease and stroke, but it could also be infant mortality. When a baby dies they still count as a person only they only lived zero years so if enough die this can bring down life expectancy. That is why a lot of third world countries have such low life expectancy (with the exception of countries with high amounts of aids).




my earlier post was far from being a complete laundry list.. and would still be so even after you include your items above...first of all..you are correct in implying that infant mortality here is higher than in other countries..and thats obviously because their parents cant afford the cost of private healthcare...

second of all..heart attacks and strokes require a separate paragraph because they are fueled by so many different synergisms...for example..we have to work longer hours in order to pay for the cost of private healthcare.. which is itself injurious to the body (on top of interfering with proper diet and exercise) and as such pushes healthcare costs even further.. thus necessitating even longer work hours to cover the increase...if it sounds like a vicious circle its not.. its a downward spiral...

third of all..its also worth pointing out that neocon america does not by any means aim for a long nor a happy life for its ppl...the basic tenet of neoconservatism is that ppl exist to serve the economy and not the other way around...the corollary to this..as the british MP noted in the interview featured in the movie..is that ppl are to be afraid of the govt and not the other way around...in either case..this ideology precludes expending any healthcare resources on anyone not capable or not willing to serve that end...

and if that sounds long-winded..then remember ..its still far from being a complete laundry list...


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7179121 - 07/15/07 02:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

infant mortality here is higher than in other countries..and thats obviously because their parents cant afford the cost of private healthcare...




I don't think that affording private health care would make a large difference in the infant mortality rate. The SOP for pre-natal care in the U.S. is like placing a band-aid on a gaping wound. Our usual lifestyle and dietary practices are poisoning our health AND that of our gestating infants. We have unwisely decided that formulas created in a lab are better food for newborns than breastmilk, and that leaving infants to "cry it out" is better than offering them the love and reassurance of being held.

Our high infant mortality rate is not going to be solved by free health care, any more than the high rates of diabetes, heart disease & cancer will be solved by free health care.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Veritas]
    #7179242 - 07/15/07 03:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

you have a valid point...however..the failure of parents to give their babies the proper attention is IMNSHO still a result of the cost of healthcare...to wit..a mother cant breastfeed her baby if she has to work a 110 hour week.. partly to pay for the costs of taking the child to see the doctor and partly to live up to some perverted right-wing-feminist ideal of independence...

Quote:

I don't think that affording private health care would make a large difference in the infant mortality rate. The SOP for pre-natal care in the U.S. is like placing a band-aid on a gaping wound.




the SOP you describe is to profit from charging the patient the full cost of treating the gaping wound while delivering the band-aid...in either case..our neoconized healthcare system definitely doesnt help any...with socialized healthcare..you pay for the chevy and you get the chevy...with private healtchare..you pay for the cadillac and you get the chevy...


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7179300 - 07/15/07 03:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

a mother cant breastfeed her baby if she has to work a 110 hour week.. partly to pay for the costs of taking the child to see the doctor and partly to live up to some perverted right-wing-feminist ideal of independence...


:lol: :wtf:  WTF?


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Trepiodge]
    #7179652 - 07/15/07 05:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodge said:
For all the people who complain about HMOs and push for a government 'solution' of nationalized health care, HMOs are a result of Federal legislation. Any government 'solution' will be ill thought out, filled with political compromise and born of political back room deals. If you think health care is bad now, wait till the feds get complete control of it. They've already fucked it up. If an auto shop screws up your power steering, do you have them work on your breaks to make your car safer?




Some countries do have government created health services that are not absolute shit. i'd switch our 37th ranked health care with any of the top 2 ranked (government created).


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7179674 - 07/15/07 05:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A 110-hour week?  Who works those kind of hours?  I'm a single mother of two boys, both breastfed, and I managed to work less than full-time during their first three years of life.  (May I add, without getting any significant amount of child support OR going on welfare.)

Additionally, healthy children do not need to go to the doctor. It's ridiculous to neglect a child's health in order to pay for their care when they become ill.

As to working mothers attempting to live up to some perverted right-wing-feminist ideal of independence, I suggest you talk to a few of them & see if that is their motivation.  :rolleyes:

Socialized medicine in the U.S. will not change the quality of health care, though it may lower the price tag.  It will also not save us from the natural consequences of the American lifestyle.  The health problems which are becoming epidemic are NOT the fault of private health insurance costs.


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Veritas]
    #7179694 - 07/15/07 05:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:


Socialized medicine in the U.S. will not change the quality of health care, though it may lower the price tag. It will also not save us from the natural consequences of the American lifestyle. The health problems which are becoming epidemic are NOT the fault of private health insurance costs.




The price tag is the problem though, lifestyles aside. A person that lives a healthy lifestyle yet doesn't have health insurance, can't get preventative health care in this system. You can be perfectly healthy and still break a leg.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #7179794 - 07/15/07 06:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

How would preventive care help with a broken leg?  Or were those two statements unrelated?  :confused:

I agree that our current health care system is leaving out a large portion of the U.S. population.  Fewer employers offer health coverage as a benefit, and the Baby Boomers are driving up the cost of private insurance with the sheer bulk of their lifestyle-related insurance claims.  If you are above the Federal Poverty Level, which is set absurdly low, you cannot qualify for state Medicaid programs.  If you are not very far above the FPL, you cannot afford private health insurance.

However, beyond interventions such as setting bones and emergency surgeries, standard medical care doesn't have much to offer beyond suppressing symptoms of our own health abuse. :shrug:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #7179798 - 07/15/07 06:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If I went to a doctor 3 times in the years between 18 and 45 it would be a lot. Because I was healthy and because I wasn't a hysterical retard who thinks the doctor should give you antibiotics for a rhinovirus. I had stitches once. I took them out myself. Preventive health care doesn't begin with unnecessary doctor visits. It begins with the individual life choices of the person involved. Checkups twice a year don't make you healthier. Nor does being a hypochondriac. None of the problems I have had since could have been prevented with green tea. Just clock stoppage. This is also true for almost every person I know. I can't think of one single person who has benefited from increased regular checkups or suffered from a lack of them. Females are a slightly different matter, but beyond the essentials of occasional mammograms and pap smears, they don't much need doctors then either. Unless they get infested with a fetus. Then all bets are off.


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OfflineSuperFunGuy
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7179801 - 07/15/07 06:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I fuckin' hate Michael Moore.. sorry if that offends anyone or anything..


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: Veritas]
    #7179877 - 07/15/07 06:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
How would preventive care help with a broken leg?  Or were those two statements unrelated?  :confused:

I agree that our current health care system is leaving out a large portion of the U.S. population.  Fewer employers offer health coverage as a benefit, and the Baby Boomers are driving up the cost of private insurance with the sheer bulk of their lifestyle-related insurance claims.  If you are above the Federal Poverty Level, which is set absurdly low, you cannot qualify for state Medicaid programs.  If you are not very far above the FPL, you cannot afford private health insurance.

However, beyond interventions such as setting bones and emergency surgeries, standard medical care doesn't have much to offer beyond suppressing symptoms of our own health abuse. :shrug:




This is a debate that can go on forever. Everyone has their own ideologies to enter into. i would just like for some of my hard working family members to be able to go get basic health care, a check up, and they can't. My grandparents pay way too much for basic medicines, money they could use for vacations...ect. Thats my theory.

Some who have never been without health care don't really understand. We can't all be as lucky as zappa.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #7179891 - 07/15/07 06:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

My grandparents pay way too much for basic medicines, money they could use for vacations...ect.


Are you fucking kidding me, vacations? The government should borrow more money from foreign interests and drive the nation into more debt so your grandparents can go on vacation? God thats the most superficial narrow minded point of view I have heard on this subject yet. We are talking about people's health and the future of the nations debt. Your grandparents vacations are meaningless.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i just saw Sicko [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #7179892 - 07/15/07 06:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Again, what is "basic health care" or "basic medicines"? What Americans have come to see as normal health care needs are totally exaggerated by the effects of our lifestyle.

Like zappa, I have rarely used health care services. I was born at home, visited the hospital once during childhood when I cut my foot on a soda can tab, was never immunized, never broke any bones, had none of the "inevitable" childhood illnesses nor ear infections, never had "check ups," and had my first Rx for antibiotics at age 26. It's the same story for my kids. So is this luck or proper self-care?


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