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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7172450 - 07/13/07 09:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

As I am bigger & stronger, all ten are going over the side. My genes are too amazing to risk possible loss.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Veritas]
    #7172456 - 07/13/07 09:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I don't believe you. I know that you've been cultivating a mouth-watering physique through the consumption of animal products. Mmmmm...that's good Diploid!





A nice, spicy bean Dip!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7172546 - 07/13/07 10:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Imagine you're on a lifeboat with 10 kids but only enough food for five of them to survive until rescue. If you feed all 10, all 10 will starve to death. If you push five overboard to their death, and the other five will survive.

Is it right to deliberately kill the five so the others can live?

Could you do that if you were the only adult in charge of the boat and if so, could you live with yourself afterward?




Here's a better way. Wait until the first one dies and then feed off of them. You might do better than the fifty fifty.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7173304 - 07/14/07 01:35 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Imagine you're on a lifeboat with 10 kids




Ten lil buggers? Sweet Jesus, I'd throw myself overboard!


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InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7173330 - 07/14/07 01:45 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

well, I think water would be a greater concern as the human body, from what i've heard is 2 days without water and 2 weeks without food or something around that.

Therefore you would need all 10 of those kids to keep producing enough urine to quench one's thirst but I think hydration would do ya in before any starvation


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 7 months, 16 days
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7173354 - 07/14/07 01:55 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What about all the water that's surrounding the boat? :lol:
I think it would definitely be more healthy to drink that urine :what:

Hmmm but yes, you know, getting back to the subject, how can one know what one would do in such a situation? This is pure speculation since human mind is so unpredictable in such high-risk situations.
I for one have NO idea what I'd do.
Maybe I'll go insanely scared and kill them all.
Maybe I'll become insane and kill myself.
Sure, what I'm thinking right now: remaining calm and learn to fish? We're in the god damn water after all :smirk:... also trying to help the kids remain as less mentally traumatized as possible should be a primary concern.
But that's all idealistically speaking, me on my chair, in from of my PC, feeling safe and getting stoned  :pirate:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
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Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7173471 - 07/14/07 02:46 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What about all the water that's surrounding the boat?
I think it would definitely be more healthy to drink that urine




I was thinking they could use a shirt or something to filter the water but I feel even that wouldn't be enough. If these kids were in your average seawater then they would dehydrate themselves even more by drinking this saltwater.

they would surely die of dehyrdation before hunger UNLESS they were freshwater, then this scenario would work with hunger.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
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Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174062 - 07/14/07 10:26 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think I would act differently depending on outside circumstances. Are these 10 kids the only remaining human children in the world? In that case I would try to pick out the 5 (or 8 or 9 or whatever) healthiest ones and kill the rest. Otherwise I would risk the lives of all 10 rather than force myself to choose among them.


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OfflineJackenobi
Hermes
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Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174218 - 07/14/07 11:34 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I question the authority of the sole adult aboard.

It's possible the kids would go all Lord of the Flies on you. The sagest child might understand something has to give if the majority are to survive. The most brutal child might spark the uprising. They would all identify with one another as a group more than with the adult.

I wonder how the psychology would actually work. Would the adult have to 'perform' well, to keep the prevelant social order going? Would they have to be a fine teacher or beloved to the children in some way to prevent savagery?

All would hinge on how much the children would need an adult leader and caregiver. Probably more than my speculation would suggest, come to think of it, as the anxiety would be far greater on a raft than in a Lord of the Flies type desert island situation.


--------------------
read books


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174231 - 07/14/07 11:39 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You folks are funny. :wink:

It's a hypothetical dilemma for probing ethics, not an engineering problem to solve by figuring out how to distill sea water and catch fish.

Lemme simplify: -=> Do the ends always justify the means?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
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Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174468 - 07/14/07 12:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Lemme simplify: -=> Do the ends always justify the means?



Strike the word always and my answer is: it depends.
Keep the word always and my answer is without hesitation: no.

Simply because the means will often have side-effects apart from and beyond their effectiveness in accomplishing the designated ends.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174532 - 07/14/07 01:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Well anyway, I'd respond to the situation by killing the five skinny kids and ultimately save the lives of five kids who would've otherwise died.

I think I would have a hard time of it psychologically for a while, but eventually I'd learn to live with it because I ultimately added some good to the net sum of the universe even though it was at personal expense.

It's interesting to note that in bad times doctors are often called upon to make this decision. It's called triage.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174587 - 07/14/07 01:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

In the Tao, always.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMark_W
Stranger
Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 347
Loc: NC
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174761 - 07/14/07 02:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Lemme simplify: -=> Do the ends always justify the means?



The ends never justify the means.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Mark_W]
    #7174795 - 07/14/07 02:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

So better to let all the kids die?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMark_W
Stranger
Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 347
Loc: NC
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174834 - 07/14/07 02:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

In reality the ends never justify the means. If in your example you are saying that there is a 100% certainty that the kids will die then that may be different, but what's the point if it can never be applied to reality?


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Mark_W]
    #7174843 - 07/14/07 02:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

but what's the point if it can never be applied to reality?

Well, for one thing, discussing idealized hypothetical situations (thought experiments) are one of the cornerstones of philosophical discussion.

For another, it's hardly inapplicable to reality. Like I said, medical triage is a real world application of my idealized example: a doctor in a war zone has enough medicine to save five kids, but 10 are in need.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMark_W
Stranger
Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 347
Loc: NC
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Diploid]
    #7174879 - 07/14/07 02:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

ok, lets deal with a real life scenario, where we don't know 100% what the future holds.
A doctor has enough medicine for 5 kids and ten are in need, he simply helps as many as he can as fast as he can and then tries to get more medicine.
If they're on an island and there is no more medicine, he should help the first five kids he comes in contact with. In other words just helping who he can as fast as he can without a thought for who deserves it more, or flipping a coin, or any of that stuff, right?.

Hypothetical situations are fine, its just when certain claims get made that make their translation into reality impossible that they serve no purpose. Like predicting the future. Saying we know what is going to happen 100%. I'm fine with having a hypothetical example that claims a 99.99% certainty rate on what will happen if..., because this can be translated into reality, but claiming to know what the future holds 100% is never the case. And this difference between 99.99% and 100% is huge in ethical dilemmas.


Edited by Mark_W (07/14/07 04:26 PM)


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OfflineJackenobi
Hermes
Male


Registered: 05/06/06
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Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Mark_W]
    #7175266 - 07/14/07 04:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mark_W said:
ok, lets deal with a real life scenario, where we don't know 100% what the future holds.
A doctor has enough medicine for 5 kids and ten are in need, he simply helps as many as he can as fast as he can and then tries to get more medicine.
If they're on an island and there is no more medicine, he should help the first five kids he comes in contact with. In other words just helping who he can as fast as he can without a thought for who deserves it more, or flipping a coin, or any of that stuff, right?.





I think that this attitude would be blind and lazy. First come first served would be "ethical" but would it be moral? By which I mean perhaps the doctor, finding himself in an unenviable position but one of enabled authority nonetheless, should choose his five, based on judgement.

This would probably be best based upon physical hierarchy, ie are some of the sick children perenially sick, do they have a short life expectancy genetically (a sickly child basically).

Child number six, an otherwise strong specimen of life happens to be suffering a rare but deadly illness as are the other nine but will die. Is that ethical or has your doctor deserted his professional responsibility?


--------------------
read books


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OfflineMark_W
Stranger
Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 347
Loc: NC
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: The Ethics Of Survival [Re: Jackenobi]
    #7175283 - 07/14/07 04:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

all the children have an equal right to life. The retarded one has the same chance of getting the medicine as the others, this seems to be the only humane way to approach it.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


Edited by Mark_W (07/14/07 04:49 PM)


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