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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Speaking for oneself
    #7163261 - 07/11/07 09:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I find that people often want to assert their own reality tunnel as objective reality. I have tried to make a habit of speaking only for myself. Just because some technique or experience has worked for me does not mean that it will have the same results for someone else, and it would be arrogant of me to assume that it will. Meditation, for example, has been very useful for me, but some people find it to be a waste of time. Who is correct? Both of us are. We are each correct in our own reality tunnel. But when we assert our reality tunnel to be reality itself, therein lies the fallacy. All that I can ever know is what is true for me. It would be incredibly close-minded of me to think that someone whose experience with something differs from mine is delusional or doing something wrong. All they are doing is working within their own reality tunnel.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
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Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Silversoul]
    #7163988 - 07/11/07 11:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

spot on. :thumbup:


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OfflineRelayer
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Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Silversoul]
    #7164012 - 07/11/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Namaste!
Ah, correct thinking Silversoul.
Of course reality is subjective.
Same concept as Beauty is in the
eye of the beholder.

Though, I have to point this out
because I feel like being an ass
Scientists have concluded that
meditation, particularly repetitive
mental acknowledgment such as the
various myriad mantra's, most definitley
have a universal positive effect.
Maybe the positive effect is more based
in physical health because the breathing
becomes regulated and we focus on a
particular happy thought, because when
I think about it, this repetition may
create a world of hell for someone suffering
from Obsessive Compulsions.
Though, maybe it would cause liberation?
Af screw it your right, subjective :smile:

I have prayed with the Maha Mantra for
years now and have felt the benefits of
attaining higher states of conciousness, which
Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita brings
about the proper acceptance in us to gain
liberation and Conciousness in God, but for
all anyone can really know it may very well
be an assistant in Chakra alignment.
Hmmmm..........

I have a Yogi friend currently, a most wonderful
person, who has just completed a book on
Kundalini realization.
Something to do with getting back to the
source of the energy of the Mother
and of Shiva.
Apparently its all Self realization withouth
the usual philosophy and mental speculation.

I'll update when I get the book becaues it
doesnt come out until next week!

Peace and love, couple a flowers for you too!
John ~
Om Shanti


--------------------
OM SHANTI ~

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Silversoul]
    #7164318 - 07/12/07 12:34 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Some reality-tunnels are more useful than others.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Silversoul]
    #7165007 - 07/12/07 07:35 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Meditation, for example, has been very useful for me, but some people find it to be a waste of time.  Who is correct?  Both of us are.  We are each correct in our own reality tunnel.  But when we assert our reality tunnel to be reality itself, therein lies the fallacy.




Yes, within the framework of one's own perceptions and subsequent experience and thoughts, each individual is "correct". However, it is not as though each individual is existing within their own reality. There is one reality, that we are all within and aspects of. The distinctions simply result from different perspective, and through the exchange of perspective, we become one, as we share perspective of the one reality in which we are immersed. :yinyang:

The thought that an individual could never speak for reality, through speaking of one's own experience, resultant from one's direct perception of reality, has no real merit. One who knows reality for what it is directly perceived to be is thus capable of effectively interacting with reality, of exercising predictive ability, thereby demonstrating that one's conception of reality is consistent with the actual nature of reality. :craven:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7166020 - 07/12/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
spot on. :thumbup:




--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Silversoul]
    #7166057 - 07/12/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

All that I can ever know is what is true for me

It may be the case that one's unverified personal reality works for them, but I think that anyone who settles for this spiritually cheats themselves.

Verifying one's personal reality and changing their point of view if it doesn't pan out is how spiritual progress is made. Accepting a personal reality without continually challenging it is spiritual stagnation.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Silversoul]
    #7166788 - 07/12/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

SOME reality tunnels are objective reality.

For example: telekinesis does NOT work for some and not others.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7166843 - 07/12/07 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
SOME reality tunnels are objective reality.

For example: telekinesis does NOT work for some and not others.




What you call objective reality I would say is only a higher probability, and not a static fact. In your example of telekinesis, you cannot know for certain that telekinesis is not a real phenomenon. I know you like to continually cite the Randi challenge, but that's based on the presupposition that everyone is motivated by money. It is possible that there are people in the world who have the ability to perform telekinesis, but are either unaware of the challenge, or simply don't care about it, or just don't want the attention that such a thing would doubtlessly bring.

So, while I do agree that it's unlikely that there are people who can perform telekinesis, I don't rule out that it is nevertheless possible, or may become possible, which it sounds as though you have.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: dblaney]
    #7166885 - 07/12/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I know you like to continually cite the Randi challenge, but that's based on the presupposition that everyone is motivated by money.




Nah, I know that true telekinesists would rather amuse their stoner friends by twirling a pinwheel before they go off to work at the Burger King...

Seems you disregard your own presupposition that a telekinesist would be some sort of perfected human being.


Motivated by money - would demonstrate to win a million dollars.

Motivated by selflessness - would demonstrate to serve all mankind.


Or would you have us believe one would merely use this power to fetch their beer from across the room?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: dblaney]
    #7166938 - 07/12/07 04:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It is possible that there are people in the world who have the ability to perform telekinesis, but are either unaware of the challenge, or simply don't care about it

Or they're such gigantic flaming assholes that they could easily win the money and donate it to some worthy cause, but smugly refuse to.

Very spiritual, sure...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Diploid]
    #7167009 - 07/12/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Seems you disregard your own presupposition that a telekinesist would be some sort of perfected human being.




I did not make that assertion in the least. I merely suggested that it's possible that since there are people who are not motivated by money and who are not able to perform telekinesis, there is the chance, albeit a very small chance, that there are people who are not motivated by money and who are able. That's all. Simply because one is not motivated by money does not mean that one is a selfless being. Not at all. That's looking at this from an unrealistic viewpoint that doesn't take into account shades of gray.


Diploid said:
Quote:

Or they're such gigantic flaming assholes that they could easily win the money and donate it to some worthy cause, but smugly refuse to.




Sure, that would make a lot of sense. But all I'm saying is that the possibility exists, however small, that there are people who are able to perform telekinesis and who, for whatever reason, do not wish to share.

That's the only point I'm trying to make here, is that it's very tricky to assert that a certain "reality tunnel" is an objective truth, and that it is absolutely true. It's a matter of keeping an open mind, IMO.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: dblaney]
    #7167030 - 07/12/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Sure, that would make a lot of sense. But all I'm saying is that the possibility exists, however small, that there are people who are able to perform telekinesis and who, for whatever reason, do not wish to share.

I agree with you in the same way that I agree that the Flying Spaghetti Monster may actually exist and is living in a nice condo on Mars.

Sure, it's possible, but is it reasonable to believe it? I don't think so. Is it reasonable to arrange your life around it? I don't think so more!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Diploid]
    #7167229 - 07/12/07 05:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

But but but, in all of the movies, the people that have "gifts" always get violently -
hunted down by the highest level government agents because they are security risks....    :sad:

And then once caught, CLONES CLONES CLONES.....!    :lol:


When you have something that no one else has, everyone else wants it, making it a risk to tell others....
Honestly, if I had something of a gift, I would be VERY reluctant to tell or show ANYONE....
Doesn't mean I couldn't anonymously help people....    :wink:


>^;;^<


Disclaimer:
I have never witnessed myself nor any others perform/performing any kind of metaphysical acts....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7167246 - 07/12/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

But you forget that lots of these people DO go around showing off their powers.

There's even a shroomerite who delights in duping gathering attendees with telekinesis, but somehow he's too scared of the government to do it in front of Randi? :noway:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Diploid]
    #7170436 - 07/13/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thread,
I also don't exclude the (small) possibility, that scientific validation will inhibit the outcome of such an experiment through unknown influence, since if it exists we don't know the mechanism how it works.
Never exclude what one doesn't know, but focus work with that, what one knows. Know what one doesn't know.
If there leaves spare time or place, take it as a room for enlarging your knowledge by experimenting with what one doesn't know.
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7174814 - 07/14/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Or would you have us believe one would merely use this power to fetch their beer from across the room?

You don't need TK to fetch beer from across the room: :thumbup:



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Diploid]
    #7174835 - 07/14/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Some reality-tunnels are more useful than others.



.... but only for the people they are more useful for.
Quote:

Diploid said:
It is possible that there are people in the world who have the ability to perform telekinesis, but are either unaware of the challenge, or simply don't care about it

Or they're such gigantic flaming assholes that they could easily win the money and donate it to some worthy cause, but smugly refuse to.

Very spiritual, sure...



Or Randi is an asshole.

Maybe he is set up by the government to systematically propagate anti-psychic propaganda by setting up what appears to be a legitimate method of investigation but which has such ludicrous and hard to meet standards that Jesus himself would fail supposing Jesus could turn water into wine like is claimed. Maybe this is because........

and so another reality tunnel starts.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: leery11]
    #7174885 - 07/14/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

but which has such ludicrous and hard to meet standards

The JREF requires the claimant HIMSELF to propose the standards. All JREF does is make sure the claimant doesn't cheat. :shrug:

set up by the government

There are dozens of other organizations all over the planet (and even one former Shroomerite) that offer similar prizes. Are they all in bed with the US government?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Speaking for oneself [Re: Diploid]
    #7174908 - 07/14/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone is in bed with the US government, don't you know?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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