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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist christians. [Re: SCleROTiUM_LICK]
    #7069848 - 06/20/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

to be more accurate, reading a single temperature from a thermometer is like reading a single word from the bible. no matter who reads that word, it will be the same to everyone.

now lets extrapolate - have a team of scientists analyze a dataset of 100 different temperatures. What are the chances they will all have the same exact conclusion, derived from the 100 numbers?

That's more accurate to your team of ethicists analogy. They could certainly all agree on the words used, however the meaning of the words is up to interpretation, much like the scientists would interpret the collection of data.

"Apples and freaking oranges. " couldn't have said it better myself.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleAdom
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7071306 - 06/20/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

sorry.


Edited by Adom (06/21/07 07:46 AM)


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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: Adom]
    #7071623 - 06/20/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i really wish you had something to add that was somewhat related to the topic. perhaps you just read the title, then posted without reading? There seems to be a lot of that going on lately.


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OfflineSCleROTiUM_LICK
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7072178 - 06/20/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

to be more accurate, reading a single temperature from a thermometer is like reading a single word from the bible. no matter who reads that word, it will be the same to everyone.




Actually, no.  This can be easily disproven by comparing several English translations of the Bible.

Anyway, YOU set up the parameters of this analogy:
Quote:

For a scientist, using a thermometer to check the temperature of a liquid will convince the scientist that the liquid is in fact whatever the thermometer says - scientific faith.

For a fundamentalist, using the bible to check the morality / rules of a situation will convince them that the truth is whatever they understand it to be according to the bible - being their instrument of choice


.

The Bible is simply NOT an instrument that yields a coherent truth EVEN if you buy into it.  There is no unified method of USE.  You can't teach someone the proper way to USE the Bible to arrive at a Christian perspective on something.  It's non data yielding.  Its kind of like... crack it, pray a little, refer back to the scripture in your head which SEEMS to justify the conclusion you have already drawn.  Simply not scientific at all. Totally non-repeatable.
"Morality/rules..." are not agreed upon even by Christians. 


:shrug:


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OfflineZaprabe
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: SCleROTiUM_LICK]
    #7072338 - 06/20/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Besides, coherent ethical theories of morality exist. People sometimes treat philosophy and theology as if they're two distinct and separate methods of evalutating the universe and human experience. They are not, however. Theology falls within the scope of philosophy. You can be a philosopher and be an atheist or a believer; more specifically, philosophy includes but is not restricted by theology. In other words, theology is not both a necessary and sufficient condition in whether or not one is a philosopher. If you're partaking in theology you are necessarily partaking in philosophy, but the reverse is not true.

Not only is the Bible folklore consisting of translations of translations of translations and self-contradiction, we don't even need it for evaluating concepts such as ethics, mortality, etc. Some people seemingly use as evidence for their supernatural claims the assumption they make that the Bible or Koran or whatever is the only 'tool' available for analyzing such concepts. But I have just shown that it is not, and so the claim is unfounded.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: SCleROTiUM_LICK]
    #7073868 - 06/21/07 06:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SCleROTiUM_LICK said:
Quote:

to be more accurate, reading a single temperature from a thermometer is like reading a single word from the bible. no matter who reads that word, it will be the same to everyone.




Actually, no. This can be easily disproven by comparing several English translations of the Bible.








not if you are comparing hebrew to hebrew. It seems you are just making an argument for the sake of it in this case. I am comparing mindsets to each other - the mindset of a scientist when proving something, and the mindset of a fundamentalist proving something. there is no need to reinterpret my comparison - i've written it clearly a few times now.

Quote:

Anyway, YOU set up the parameters of this analogy:

The Bible is simply NOT an instrument that yields a coherent truth EVEN if you buy into it. There is no unified method of USE. You can't teach someone the proper way to USE the Bible to arrive at a Christian perspective on something.




at what point in this thread did I make the argument that the Bible yields coherent truth? Let me reiterate it yet again: I am comparing the mindset of one type of person, to the mindset of another person.

What I'm not comparing:
religion vs. science
the validity of either


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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: Zaprabe]
    #7073879 - 06/21/07 06:25 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Saprobe said:
Besides, coherent ethical theories of morality exist. People sometimes treat philosophy and theology as if they're two distinct and separate methods of evalutating the universe and human experience. They are not, however. Theology falls within the scope of philosophy. You can be a philosopher and be an atheist or a believer; more specifically, philosophy includes but is not restricted by theology. In other words, theology is not both a necessary and sufficient condition in whether or not one is a philosopher. If you're partaking in theology you are necessarily partaking in philosophy, but the reverse is not true.

Not only is the Bible folklore consisting of translations of translations of translations and self-contradiction, we don't even need it for evaluating concepts such as ethics, mortality, etc. Some people seemingly use as evidence for their supernatural claims the assumption they make that the Bible or Koran or whatever is the only 'tool' available for analyzing such concepts. But I have just shown that it is not, and so the claim is unfounded.




again, thanks for the reply but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If I wanted to debate the validity of the Bible, I would have saved my time. In fact, judging by most responses, I probably should have. I was hoping for a good discussion, but now it's just reply after reply of people trying to debunk christianity, or promote christianity. All of them, clearly missing the point.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7074548 - 06/21/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think Science and Religion are both similar bacause they are both competing in the "Realm of Facts"

"This water is below freezing! The thermometer can't lie!"

"Your going to hell, because you sinned!"


Well what if my below freezing is your boiling and my sin is your salvation?

In a alot of ways Science is very subjective...kinda like music.

At one point, music had no standard. So the note 'A' in germany might run at 445 Herzt and 'A' in france might run at 435 herz. Now even though both these instruments might be perfect in every way, sadly they can not play with each other, because neither can agree which is the factual actual 'A' (Now the world wide standard is 440 Herzt, or Concert A)

So If my Guitar is perfectly in tune with itself, does that make it wrong comared to a guitar to higher or lower? Does it make it a fact?
Often I find, Facts only have place next to the words compromise and agreement.


I have 87.98/90 names!


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OfflineSCleROTiUM_LICK
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7074618 - 06/21/07 10:46 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please see your opening post:
Quote:

thoughts, comments? on to something, or just rambling?



Why the dismissive, even hostile, attitude towards posts that don't fit your agenda, then?

Moving on....

It sounds to me now like you don't want to be pinned down to anything more than the observation that some people regard the Bible as others regard scientific results. UMMM, if THIS is your epiphany.....What did you previously think the meaning of "fundamentalism" was?

SO, now you understand these fundamentalists, even though you're not willing to claim that the Bible is valid? What CAN I say? Sorry that your mind is under so much stress? I don't mean that to be mean... I just mean....
I believe in thermometers. I find them useful. I can talk about a temperature reading and all sorts of people truly grasp what I'm talking about. There is, therefore, a clear social justification for my use of thermometers. NOT in-coincidentally, people of all faiths use them. Thermometers are also directly relevant on the world. I look out the window and if my thermometer is low, I bundle up. If it is high, I dress lightly. I am rewarded in doing so by a lack of physical discomfort. Some day, manuscripts from the inventor of the thermometer might be found claiming that there was a higher purpose designed into the device and I'll be ABSOLUTELY FORCED to listen- all because the thermometer has proven its usefullness and reliabilty over and over again.

SO, if you have the same regard for your Bible -STRIKE THAT!-if you UNDERSTAND people who have the same regard for their Bible as I have for my thermometer- please try to make me understand how this can possibly be....Make comments about the Bible that are analagous to my statements about my thermometer? Otherwise, YOUR post is kind of pointless.... So, happy fucking epiphany!

What does it mean to "understand" the fundamentalist perspective?

Personally I try to understand fundamentalists, also. They are humans, after all. The best I can do, however, is to regard them as undeveloped children with poor analytical skills.... Which I'm happy to do, without being too nasty about it, but sooner or later I get burned when they spin around and step on my freedoms or the freedoms of other people I care about... So, maybe I would do better to regard them as the criminally insane- a population which needs to be controlled and contained.

I've recently started watching that Invention competition- whatever its called- on tv. If you've seen it, you'll know how invested people can get in the most unworthwhile concepts. They'll spend thousands of dollars developing items which have no real use and then try to convince people who know better that it does have a use. They'll become angry or abusive when confronted with the reality or sometimes they'll just express utter shock. It's very sad. Anyone who thinks being misguided is strictly a Christian phenomena should definitely watch and maybe it will help them learn some patience.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: SCleROTiUM_LICK]
    #7074680 - 06/21/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

HOLY HEEMINA BEEMINA I FEEL DUH LAWD!

BUT if I even tried talking about my friend then it may slander hish name.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7076065 - 06/21/07 04:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

excuse the hostile tone, in fact I tried toning it down. It's not that you are replying contrary to what I want - it's that you keep redirecting the topic.

Quote:

The best I can do, however, is to regard them as undeveloped children with poor analytical skills....




a bit condescending and close minded, no?

Quote:

Make comments about the Bible that are analagous to my statements about my thermometer? Otherwise, YOUR post is kind of pointless.... So, happy fucking epiphany!




speaking of hostile... anyways, I will certainly address this later - on my way to a comedy show now. By the way, the show you refer to is "American Inventor" and it has nothing to do with inventions, and everything to do with exploiting sob stories. Notice how majority of the finalists are always struggling families with tears in their eyes as they describe their problems with money, cancer, death, etc. but I digress...


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineSCleROTiUM_LICK
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7076566 - 06/21/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The first quote... perhaps a bit condenscending If that's what you want to call it. Is it condenscending to deal with a child AS a child?

Most of the adamantly Christian people I know are intelectually equivalent to children. My mother is a Christian. I decided some time ago not to trouble her with complex ideas. They will simply be lost on her and she will try to relate them back to something to which they are not related and become confused. So, I protect her from those ideas. I keep the conversation extremely light and focused on the moment. Then she strays and I nod alot. Much as a might a rambling child visiting with a friend.

I make allowances for children that I make for few others, so for the times I am able to include Christians under that umbrella of tolerance, they should truly feel blessed.

By the way, I don't believe my mother was simply born dumb. I believe if you keep trying to make a square peg mentally fit into a round hole (maybe because someone is promising health, prosperity and eternal life by doing so), you can damage your mind. In my late adolesence I read continually on the occult. I probably came close to damaging my mind by trying to integrate a lot of nonsensical ideas into a working world view. I nearly had a breakdown. I figure my mother and I have the same intensity. I, luckily, just knew when to quit. The last time I confronted my mother about the foundations of her world view, she became all sobby talking about some accident and near death experience she had, much like those contestants on American Inventor. It wasn't worth it anymore. She made her choices. I gave her my sympathy vote, much as the judges (usually George Forman) are doing with those totally misguided inventors... and "pretended" to understand.

The second quote.... I'm only challenging you to make good on your ephiphany and your urge to share it with the forum. The hostility is entirely surface, I assure you...

If you REALLY understand Christians....especially without being one...DO EXPLAIN. Maybe you can give me my mother back.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: SCleROTiUM_LICK]
    #7077380 - 06/21/07 09:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

well first of all, i was raised roman catholic, which is more of an occult version of fundamentalism. Heavy on hidden meanings and the such, however I have been to many different churches - protestant, baptist, lutheran, etc.

I believe all that to be irrelevant though. It's a simple concept, albeit heavily debatable, and the debate itself is a catalyst of the same concept.

I would cite Anton Wilson's concept of "What the thinker thinks, the prover proves," even if that's not a scientifically approved theory.

response coming soon.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist Christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7078871 - 06/22/07 08:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ok, here goes - and i'll do my best to avoid being verbose.

Quote:

I believe in thermometers.




that statement alone sheds a great deal of light on what I'm saying. You have faith that a thermometer is always accurate, and will always be useful. You may be dismissing the chance of the lines being misprinted too low/too high, or not having enough mercury (if it uses that), etc. Many factors can come into play which would offset a reading by very little, but offset nonetheless. Now I am not trying to pick that apart, but simply showing that in this analogy, nothing is certain, and nothing is true in an absolute sense.

Quote:

I can talk about a temperature reading and all sorts of people truly grasp what I'm talking about. There is, therefore, a clear social justification for my use of thermometers.




Likewise, you can talk about the Bible (or Koran, or Book of Mormon, etc.) and all sorts of people will know what you are talking about. They may not know the intricate details of the entire book, just as not everyone knows the intricate details of how a thermometer works. They just believe it does, like the religious zealots believe their books work.

Quote:

Thermometers are also directly relevant on the world. I look out the window and if my thermometer is low, I bundle up. If it is high, I dress lightly.




This is a good example of how you are brining subjectivity back into this, which is unscientific. while I can agree that reading the thermometer will give you a rough idea of how the temperature feels - it's preference, and your own perception of that temperature. Some people feel cold at 75 degrees, some people feel warm. It's their own interpretation - how it feels to THEM personally, however hot/cold is subjective, the actual number value of the temperature is objective. Just like the actual words in the bible (or Koran, etc.) are objective, but the meanings of those words can be interpreted many different ways.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinetreeyei
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Re: i think i understand fundamentalist christians. [Re: kotik]
    #7155072 - 07/10/07 03:24 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

One thing to consider is that if the bible actually is a medium between the creator of all existence and a self aware creation, than certain phenomena or dynamics resulting from said creation interacting with their creator via faith in this medium will have unique results from any scientific attempt at an objective perspective.


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