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OfflineMark_W
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Revolutionary potential of psychedelics
    #7154042 - 07/09/07 10:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

this isn’t much of a philosophy question, but it also doesn’t belong in the psychedelic experience forum.

It’s regarding the revolutionary potential of psychedelics, in terms of social change. And which psychedelics tend to be the most revolutionary, specifically lsd vs. shrooms.
I’ve learned on these forums that its good to start out with a few positive words about mushrooms, so.... I think the organic or natural aspect of shrooms is great, as well as the historical legitimacy. Also the fact that I can produce them myself and be more self-sufficient is a plus.

That being said, it seems to me that lsd has more potential to inspire positive social change. I look at Holland where mushrooms are openly sold in shops, this doesn’t seem to have such a drastic impact on their society as I believe would happen if lsd were sold in these same shops. Obviously this is all speculation and there are many factors involved (many I may be overlooking), but does anyone disagree and why?

Edited by Mark_W (07/09/07 10:39 PM)

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154110 - 07/09/07 10:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's hard to attribute too much to a drug in itself in regard to social change. I think a useful breakdown of this might be the question of which is most easily distributed, and which is most conducive for use as a personal tool.

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Epigallo]
    #7154149 - 07/09/07 10:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

yes the economics of lsd and the mass scale distribution potential is certainly a big factor. But if it were sold in Holland just as mushrooms are sold, what do you think the impact would be on the social/political landscape?


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/09/07 10:57 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154164 - 07/09/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

but does anyone disagree and why?




Yes and because, first of all, mushrooms don't have the same on everybody, neither does LSD.
And dude... you can find LSD in Netherlands fairly easy, even if they don't sell it in smart shops.

And, just out of curiosity, what social change would you expect?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7154209 - 07/09/07 11:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I would expect a sort of breakdown of formality, an increase in creativity and openness, etc. There would obviously be several negative aspects too, just as there were in the mid-late 60s of America.

So you don't think much of anything would happen if lsd were openly sold in the smart shops?


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/09/07 11:07 PM)

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154212 - 07/09/07 11:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

if it was just in holland as mushrooms are sold, it doesn't seem that many more people would be tripping ~ the customers would just have their choice of drug.

what happens when we get more people tripping though? they are catalysts for change - then the question is how to use them on a mass scale to affect a desired change. The 60s made good progress in spiritual and therapeutic uses, but what was in the foreground was basically a big party scene. So I guess it depends on how they are used that will determine what they will change...

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Epigallo]
    #7154265 - 07/09/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think lsd would catch on in popularity in a way that mushrooms don't. I guess since lsd is more of a "party drug" or is perhaps better suited for social situations (some may argue against this), that it would gain momentum in a way that mushrooms don't tend to do.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154319 - 07/09/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

see what I mean, that way it would be used (and is being) used much more indiscriminately than, perhaps, ayahuasca is right now. To me it is too broad for speculation, its kind of like 'what would the societal changes be if more people used hammers?' I have thought about it (the l.s.d. i mean)...just can't get anywhere.

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Epigallo]
    #7154329 - 07/09/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You're advocating social reform through a catalyst. That's nothing new. It's what's been done for ages, though perhaps on a slightly more individual level. Social reform is reactionary, in other words, it is just replacing one system of rules and laws and dogmas and traditions with another one with slightly different rules and laws, etc.

For real social change to take place, there must be a revolution, on the individual level, not the societal one.

Not only that, but psychedelics are unpredictable, and using a mind-altering substance on another person to achieve a desired end seems a bit like mind-control.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: dblaney]
    #7154354 - 07/09/07 11:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

yes, I realize that it must come on the individual level, however then the question becomes how best to help, catalyze, or facilitate on the individual level and are psychedelics a part of this process, and if so, which ones, to what degree, etc.

I am looking at trends on the social level of things, information which might help out on an individual level. I'm certainly not advocating forcing psychedelics upon a society. I'm simply looking at what impact the availablity of certain psychedelics has on the social/political landscape (which is an indication of what's going on on an individual level).


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/09/07 11:47 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154504 - 07/10/07 12:06 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So you don't think much of anything would happen if lsd were openly sold in the smart shops?




Nope, nothing much. And anyways, not in the proportions you would expect.
Netherlands already has that: "breakdown of formality, an increase in creativity and openness" on larger proportions than other nationalities. Not necessarily because of "drugs" even though they play their role, but because of the general state of extended freedom in many other domains (prostitution, marriages between the same sexes, euthanasia, etc). All these things make people feel more free and in extent become more relaxed about life. So there are some psychological changes.

The entire world is changing... now what kind of change do you have in mind, because what may seem "ideal" for you might be someone else's hell.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: dblaney]
    #7154506 - 07/10/07 12:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
You're advocating social reform through a catalyst. That's nothing new. It's what's been done for ages, though perhaps on a slightly more individual level. Social reform is reactionary, in other words, it is just replacing one system of rules and laws and dogmas and traditions with another one with slightly different rules and laws, etc.

For real social change to take place, there must be a revolution, on the individual level, not the societal one.

Not only that, but psychedelics are unpredictable, and using a mind-altering substance on another person to achieve a desired end seems a bit like mind-control.




:thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7154538 - 07/10/07 12:14 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Every country has a certain level of informality, creativity and openness. To say the Netherlands already has that more than other countries is missing the point. More is better, when we're talking about creativity, freedom, openness, etc, right? How could more of these things be someone else's hell?


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/10/07 12:15 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154574 - 07/10/07 12:24 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because everything is relative. This is the first argument.
The second is somehow similar but not quite. For example "freedom". That can be interpreted. What if we'd have the "freedom" to kill, create wars at our will, use the atomic bomb, rape etc?

And as I said before, some people react different to the same drug. Some can become more creative from mushrooms, others from LSD, others from sex or others even from looking out the window.
What you're trying to do is finding a common recipe. It never works. It never will because we are all different, our minds and views on life differ, our preferences, like and dislikes differ.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7154619 - 07/10/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

We are all different, but we are also all the same in ways. And I'm just trying to figure out how best to help everyone, call that "trying to find a common recipe" and say "it never works" if you like, but I don't deny the differences between people, I simply try to find the underlying unity and work within that context.

Indeed you do the same thing, right? How could it be otherwise? If everyone is different and everything is relative, why are you not just as likely to punch someone in the face upon meeting them, as you are to shake their hand? We do generalize that they would rather not be punched in the face, and its not always a bad thing. Sometimes this process backfires, but we try to make the best guesses with the information that we have.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/10/07 12:44 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7154692 - 07/10/07 12:51 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Now the best guess is something else...
But tell me, hoe exactly does LSD would make "things better" than mushrooms, in your opinion?
And on a side note: personally I prefer mushrooms over LSD, they make me more creative and I find their effects to be more deep that LSD, even though an acid trip is "stronger" and longer than a mushroom trip. See? Personal preference. :shrug:

Hmm and yes, sometimes I'm more likely to punch a person on the face while other times I'm more likely to shake hands (with one and the same person but in different situations or mind set or all other variables, including my Will). So I'd say, in certain measure, we're unpredictable even to ourselves, how can one decide for the rest of the world? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7154731 - 07/10/07 01:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You prefer mushrooms, but looking at the population in general it seems that lsd would likely be more popular and in turn perhaps a more revolutionary psychedelic if access were the same for both subtances. Again lsd being better suited to social situations for most people, since most people report a more clear and focused state of mind.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/10/07 01:05 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7155078 - 07/10/07 03:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

So see?
Everything's relative :cool:
Nothing wrong with that, I have nothing against distributing LSD in smartshops, on the contrary, I encourage it, only that I don't see it as the catalyst of a "social revolution".
What I really encourage from all my heart in psychedelic psychotherapy. :psychsplit:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7155270 - 07/10/07 06:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

well, I always agreed that people have differences, but I don't subscribe to the "everything's relative" credo. For example I don't believe in moral relativism, something like slavery has always been morally wrong (it just a long time before was realized). Same thing with torture, always wrong, never justifiable.
I'm sorry you don't see easier access to lsd as a catalyst for a social revolution, but I agree that psychedelic psychotherapy has a lot of potential. If you haven't read "The Secret Chief" yet, it's a great book on the topic.
here it is in case you're interested: http://www.maps.org/secretchief/sctoc.html

Edited by Mark_W (07/10/07 07:15 AM)

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7155401 - 07/10/07 07:50 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

So how exactly would you go about doing something like this, from a practical standpoint? Clearly you can't just give everyone these substances and then hope for the best. Selling them in stores like in smartshops would be alright, as it's non-intrusive, but so much for social reform through that. Not everyone will be interested, in fact I bet only a fraction of society at large would even consider using psychedelics if they were legally available. Second, psychedelics like mushrooms and LSD just amplify the functioning of the mind. There is nothing in that experience which would make any difference for society. The vast majority of people I meet who have used psychedelics have used them mostly for recreational purposes, to laugh and see pretty things, and if they had any insights, they were minor and definitely secondary.

Using psychedelics to affect social change just seems way too impractical.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: dblaney]
    #7155492 - 07/10/07 08:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm merely speculating as to which psychedelics are the most likely to help bring about social change. Like you said, this is not the biggest factor in the equation, people use psychedelics for a variety of reasons.
When you say "psychedelics like mushrooms and lsd just amplify the functioning of the mind", this seems like an extreme over-simplification of the matter. These substances are two of the most mysterious substances people have ever encountered. I could see your statement being more true for things like cocaine and the amphetamines, but it seems ridiculous to reduce psychedelics to that.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7155534 - 07/10/07 08:38 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, it is what they do, regardless of your dislike of the simplification. From my experience, and that of everyone else that I've talked with who has shared the psychedelic experience, it seems psychedelics amplify the functioning of the mind, inducing sensory distortions, and intensifying thought and feeling, making one's conditioning more readily observable, and thus making it easier to gain perspective and insight into yourself and even the world around you.

Cocaine and amphetamines can't really do all that too well.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: dblaney]
    #7155562 - 07/10/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think most people would interpret the phrase "amplify the functioning of the mind" to mean an increase in cognitive abilities in terms of more focused and better performing brain (like test-taking results, and a quicker, sharper ability to reason, like the stimulants produce). I don't think most people would tie in "amplifying the functioning of the mind" with "inducing sensory distortions". You're going to have to be more clear and specific in order for us get anywhere on this issue.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/10/07 08:56 AM)

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7156045 - 07/10/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You're going to have to be more clear and specific in order for us get anywhere on this issue.




I did elaborate, see my last post.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7156148 - 07/10/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

well I think it depends on the location. Like you stated Holland as having no social impact with mushrooms being sold.

Compared to the united states, holland is more of a socialized government so I don't see what people would complain about or have to create a movement on.

This is just speculation, but in America, things aren't as open as in holland. At least in the general norm, and something like an lsd, mushroom, or any psychidelic can prove to be an eye-opening experience as to what's going on in the society.

This is what I think, I don't know for sure. but it sounds about right.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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OfflineGrok
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7156535 - 07/10/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because of the 'individual revolution' that can be facilitated by psychedelics, it's easy to think they could have a similar collective effect. I don't doubt that they could; but what you have to realize is that psychedelics don't change anything, they are merely a tool for guidance, insight, healing, and of course, fun.

"Change is inevitable, growth is optional."

I have seen many people, including myself, go through life shattering experiences, change their outlook for a bit, and then revert back to their old ways. You have to consider that most people really aren't in a position where they see change/growth as something with much value. Most people's priorities have been prescribed to them already for much if not all of the rest of their life; pay mortgage, send kids to school, etc...and they are already complacent with the way things are. Add into that the legal status of psychedelics, the time necessary to attain a good set/setting, etc...it just doesn't jive with the consensus lifestyle at all.

There is huge potential for psychedelic revolution, especially with DMT, but IMO the begining of it lies within only a certain breed of people who have little vested interest in the ways things are, certainly not average joe. Plus it needs a certain degree of discipline, foundation, and direction, to be successful, instead of "crashing around selling consciousness expansion". It needs leaders and guides/people who really understand how to unlock the potential of psychedelics and help people integarte the experience.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7157368 - 07/10/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mark_W said:
You prefer mushrooms, but looking at the population in general it seems that lsd would likely be more popular and in turn perhaps a more revolutionary psychedelic if access were the same for both subtances. Again lsd being better suited to social situations for most people, since most people report a more clear and focused state of mind.




I'm sorry, but I don't understand what this line of reasoning is based upon. The effects of mushrooms as compared to LSD are pretty similiar, especially from the vantage point of those who are not that familiar with psychadelic experiences. The only notable difference I recognize in regards to your point is that LSD is easier to consume. :shrug:

Are you really proposing that, if smart shops in Amsterdam, one city in the world, were to offer one more psychadelic, very similar to another already made available, that there would occur a very distinct, profound change within the human population? :confused: I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I couldn't comprehend how its availability would appeal to a target audience much beyond the individuals already consuming mushrooms. :shrug:

I don't understand the concept of this revolutionary potential, anyways. Revolutions provoke reactions. Its not the most efficent, productive means of change. Positive trends, over time, are much more effective. :yesnod:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7159548 - 07/11/07 06:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ok, the reasoning is based on the fact that (even here in the shoomery) polls of psychedelic users usually reveal that lsd is their favorite psychedelic. This leads me to believe it would be a more popular psychedelic if access were the same for both substances. Also among the psychedelic "illuminati" (with the exception of Mckenna and a few others) lsd is usually the favorite of the two and is more commonly used in psychotherapy, etc.

no, I'm not proposing that if smart shops started selling lsd that a global revolution would ensue. I do think, within the city of amsterdam, that many changes would result from this, as I think lsd would catch on in popularity more-so than mushrooms.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

Edited by Mark_W (07/11/07 06:52 AM)

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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Mark_W]
    #7159825 - 07/11/07 08:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Really? The first two polls I find when doing a forum search for "favorite psychedelic poll" are these:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7112267
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6520366

Both show a preference for mushrooms.

I don't want to bash LSD, I am quite fond of it myself. But don't forget that the reason why Timothy Leary switched from Sandoz CY-39 (aka synthetic psilocybin) to Sandoz LSD-25, was because LSD is a better party drug than psilocybin, and Leary thought that this factor would make it easier to provoke psychedelic experiences among the general population. As we all know, this strategy didn't work very well.

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OfflineMark_W
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Re: Revolutionary potential of psychedelics [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7159883 - 07/11/07 09:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The one poll I saw in the Psychedelic experience forum led me to believe that lsd was more popular even here. I am probably wrong about that, thanks for correcting me. But check out websites focusing on psychedelics in general such as hipforums, their polls usually have MDMA as the favorite psychedelic, and then LSD next in line.

So I think Leary's plan was a good one, and it may have turned out better than people give credit for. A lot of groundbreaking events happened in the late 60s with lsd being part of the inspiration. Lots of creativity, inspired music, lots of people taking stands for freedom and civil rights, a summer of love. I wouldn't conclude that the strategy didn't work very well (it had it's downsides and it's backlashes for sure, but overall I'd still say it was more of a success than not.)


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary

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