Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq
    #7139485 - 07/06/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

This article is a few months old but interesting.

WASHINGTON: Saudi Arabia has told the Bush administration that it might provide financial backing to Iraqi Sunnis in any war against Iraq's Shiites if the United States pulls its troops out of Iraq, according to American and Arab diplomats.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia conveyed that message to Vice President Dick Cheney two weeks ago during Cheney's whirlwind visit to Riyadh, the officials said. During the visit, King Abdullah also expressed strong opposition to diplomatic talks between the United States and Iran, and pushed for Washington to encourage the resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, senior Bush administration officials said.

The Saudi warning reflects fears among America's Sunni Arab allies about Iran's rising influence in Iraq, coupled with Tehran's nuclear ambitions. King Abdullah II of Jordan has also expressed concern about rising Shiite influence, and about the prospect that the Shiite-dominated government would use Iraqi troops against the Sunni population.

A senior Bush administration official said Tuesday that part of the administration's review of Iraq policy involved the question of how to harness a coalition of moderate Iraqi Sunnis with centrist Shiites to back the Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

The Saudis have argued strenuously against an American pullout of Iraq, citing fears that Iraq's minority Sunni population would be massacred. Those fears, United States officials said, have become more pronounced as a growing chorus in Washington has advocated a draw-down of American troops in Iraq, coupled with diplomatic outreach to Iran, which is largely Shiite.

Today in Africa & Middle East
Majority of Israeli settlements beyond boundaries, report saysTurkey draws up plan for possible attack on Kurds in IraqIn huge blow to Iraqi refugees, Sweden will tighten asylum rules
"It's a hypothetical situation, and we'd work hard to avoid such a structure," one Arab diplomat in Washington said. But, he added, "If things become so bad in Iraq, like an ethnic cleansing, we will feel we are pulled into the war."

The Bush administration is also working on a way to form a coalition of Sunni Arab nations and a moderate Shiite government in Iraq, along with the United States and Europe, to stand against "Iran, Syria and the terrorists," another senior administration official said Tuesday.

Until now Saudi officials have promised their counterparts in the United States that they would refrain from aiding Iraq's Sunni insurgency. But that pledge holds only as long as the United States remains in Iraq.

The Saudis have been wary of supporting Sunnis in Iraq because their insurgency there has been led by extremists of Al Qaeda, who are opposed to the kingdom's monarchy. But if Iraq's sectarian war worsened, the Saudis would line up with Sunni tribal leaders.

The Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Turki al-Faisal, who told his staff on Monday that he was resigning his post, recently fired Nawaf Obaid, a consultant who wrote an opinion piece in The Washington Post two weeks ago contending that "one of the first consequences" of an American pullout of Iraq would "be massive Saudi intervention to stop Iranian-backed Shiite militias from butchering Iraqi Sunnis."

Obaid also suggested that Saudi Arabia could cut world oil prices in half by raising its production, a move that he said "would be devastating to Iran, which is facing economic difficulties even with today's high oil prices." The Saudi government disavowed Obaid's column, and Prince Turki canceled his contract.

But Arab diplomats said Tuesday that Obaid's column reflected the view of the Saudi government, which has made clear its opposition to an American pullout from Iraq.

In a speech in Philadelphia last week, Prince Turki reiterated the Saudi position against an American withdrawal from Iraq. "Just picking up and leaving is going to create a huge vacuum," he told the World Affairs Council. "The U.S. must underline its support for the Maliki government because there is no other game in town."

Prince Turki said Saudi Arabia did not want Iraq to fracture along ethnic or religious lines. On Monday a group of prominent Saudi clerics called on Sunni Muslims around the world to mobilize against Shiites in Iraq. The statement called the "murder, torture and displacement of Sunnis" an "outrage."

The resignation of Prince Turki, a former Saudi intelligence chief and a son of the late King Faisal, was supposed to be formally announced Monday, officials said, but that had not happened by late Tuesday.

"They're keeping us very puzzled," a Saudi official said. Prince Turki's resignation was first reported Monday in The Washington Post.

If Prince Turki does depart, he will leave after 15 months on the job, in contrast to the 22 years that his predecessor, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, spent as ambassador in Washington.

In Riyadh, there was a sense of disarray over Prince Turki's resignation that was difficult to hide. A former adviser to the royal family said that Prince Turki had submitted his resignation several months ago but that it was refused. Rumors had circulated ever since that Prince Turki intended to resign, as talk of a possible government shake-up grew.

Prince Saud al-Faisal, Saudi Arabia's foreign minister and Prince Turki's brother, has been in poor health for some time. He is described as eager to resign, with his wife's health failing, too, just as the United States has been prodding Saudi Arabia to take a more active role in Iraq and with Iran.

The former adviser said Prince Turki's resignation came amid a growing rivalry between the ambassador and Prince Bandar, who is now Saudi Arabia's national security adviser. Prince Bandar, well known in Washington for his access to the White House, has vied to become the next foreign minister.

"This is a very high-level problem; this is about Turki, the king and Bandar," said the former adviser to the royal family. "Let's say the men don't have a lot of professional admiration for each other."

Hassan M. Fattah contributed reporting from Dubai, United Arab Emirates.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/13/africa/web.1213saudi.php?page=2



Our so called ally Saudi Arabia warns us (blackmail) that if we pull out of Iraq then they will start funding Al queda....
Fuck them, when did we become Saudi Arabia's bitch? let them kill each other. Rivers of Arab blood would be a good thing.

Get our soldiers the fuck out.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7139559 - 07/06/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

:yesnod:

Given that most Muslims hate us, I believe it is to our benefit if the Sunnis and Shi'ites kill each other.  Our enemies killing our enemies is good.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinevintage_gonzo
Stranger

Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 457
Last seen: 16 years, 10 days
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7141735 - 07/07/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Why do you think they are insinuating that they will provde funding to al'qaeda? there are tons of sunni militias in iraq. i also thought this was implied...i mean wouldnt it be obvious for Saudi Arabia to support fellow sunnis against shiites? i dont think this is big news to anybody..actually id bet the farm they are already supplying sunni militias in iraq, why wouldnt they? we are.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLordSenate
One of the Lost
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/15/02
Posts: 37,093
Loc: First Circle of Hell
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: vintage_gonzo]
    #7141768 - 07/07/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

im sure they are, im sure a lot of the middle eastern countries have their hand in iraq some how, whether it be visible or not.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: LordSenate]
    #7141801 - 07/07/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Indeed, they do. This latest is interesting:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/9cc4d5f4-2be3-11dc-b498-000b5df10621.html

Quote:

Al-Qaeda linked to operations from Iran

By Stephen Fidler in London

Published: July 6 2007 22:04 | Last updated: July 6 2007 22:04

Evidence that Iranian territory is being used as a base by al-Qaeda to help in terrorist operations in Iraq and elsewhere is growing, say western officials.

It is not clear how much the al-Qaeda operation, described by one official as a money and communications hub, is being tolerated or encouraged by the Iranian government, they said.




Not clear? In a court of law with a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt", maybe. Preponderance? Not so much.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7142082 - 07/07/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

What if the United States opts out of Iraq? I think we would be left to not juggle all sorts of conflicting interests. What are we gaining by doing so in the first place? Why the fuck should we care which tribe does what? All of these interests aren't divided along any rational matters anyways. Are we the mediators of reason? Of course not, or else we wouldn't be there in the first place. Everyone there wants to use us for their own needs, for their own thirst of power. We obviously aren't there to disable terrorist networks, and the amount of resources we are diverting into securing more oil through privatization could be better invested in our means of pursuing renewable energy.

Anyone, please, one reason why we should feel justified in having any sort of presence in the Middle East.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7142668 - 07/07/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Justified? Are you sure that's the word you want? I suspect you want an opinion on how it is in our interests to continue to expend lives and energy to take a chance on creating an enormously grateful and centrally located ally on the doorstep of an already teetering enemy. If this can be pulled off, and I actually think it gets closer all the time, it will be a huge boon to America. If we yet again pull the plug to soon it will be an enormous harm.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7142954 - 07/07/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If this can be pulled off, and I actually think it gets closer all the time, it will be a huge boon to America.  If we yet again pull the plug to soon it will be an enormous harm.




All the Reps running in 2008 (except for Ron Paul:)) are anti-pull the plug. I think about 20% of Americans agree with them....

So you are willing to give up the chance for a republican white house and a few more Supreme Court Judges for IRAQ?????

Not me. Hillary/Obama choosing Supreme Court judges scare the fuck out of me more than Al Qaeda.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7143216 - 07/07/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

..take a chance on creating an enormously grateful and centrally located ally on the doorstep of an already teetering enemy. If this can be pulled off, and I actually think it gets closer all the time..




Wow.

Breathtakingly delusional.

I could understand such fanciful talk four years ago.." We will be greeted as liberators, etc." But now?

Come on.

What planet are you living on?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (07/07/07 08:59 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7143507 - 07/07/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Justified? Are you sure that's the word you want? I suspect you want an opinion on how it is in our interests to continue to expend lives and energy to take a chance on creating an enormously grateful and centrally located ally on the doorstep of an already teetering enemy. If this can be pulled off, and I actually think it gets closer all the time, it will be a huge boon to America. If we yet again pull the plug to soon it will be an enormous harm.




I dont think so, I think jumping headlong into middle eastern politics is a risky move, their culture and political structures are very different from ours and through out the years various western powers have had their noses bloodied from radical islamists.

Engaging yourself in a power struggle in the mid-east will not contribute to a boon, but more of a bust, in the fact all of our tax money is being grafted away by ungrateful iraqi's whose primary loyalty is to their tribe/paramilitary or whatever. Iraq after 5 years of occupation is not anymore safer and infact is more dangerous, and you cant govern a country with no security.

Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg on the upcoming wars in the mid-east, and probably a greater shiite vs sunni civil war, and a larger mid-east war involving western and israeli powers concerning Iran and its proxy militias of Sadr and Nasrallah.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7143641 - 07/07/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

We love ya zap but honestly FUCK the middle east! we need to withdraw from Iraq; close the bases in Kuwait, Qatar and wherever else.

adn why the fuck to we give 5.5bn in total aid to Israel every year?? And why send arms to Saudi Arabia, a country that has never fought a war????

We should leave Germany, South Korea, Japan, etc.
We don't need to be the world's policeman anymore to these Ungrateful/Anti-American fucks!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7143660 - 07/07/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If this can be pulled off..




If this can be pulled off the Beatles reunion can't be far behind!!  :grin:






--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (07/08/07 12:05 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7143673 - 07/07/07 09:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Ahhh....you're becoming a nationalist and isolationist libertarian like myself.

Come to the Dark Side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143868 - 07/07/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

:grin: Thanks!


Some republicans are saying that if Paul was nominated that he would get maybe 30% of the national vote and scare the shit out of most people. It would cost the reps at least a dozen senate seats and and over 50 house seats.... but maybe the rep party needs to be turned upside down, because they don't appear to be the lessor of two evils anymore....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7143900 - 07/07/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I actually like the Democrats better than the Republicans right now. Our last Democratic president had budget surpluses and the Democrats seem to be more isolationist. My only beef with them is their flirting with socialism and the extreme Left.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEconomist
in training
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7144563 - 07/08/07 12:13 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Anyone, please, one reason why we should feel justified in having any sort of presence in the Middle East.




I'm mostly concerned about pulling our military out of the middle east, but then NOT taking the gloves off of our multinational corporations.

Currently the US prohibits our Oil Companies from taking necessary action in order to compete for mid-eastern oil resources. As an example, if a corporation is caught paying bribes, the executives can go to jail.

Chinese and Russian oil concerns do not have these limitations. Currently (though crude) the US Military presence (and military and foreign aid) balances these limitations out. If we pull out of the middle east (which we definitely should, it's more trouble than it's worth) we need to also allow our corporations to do what is necessary to compete once we're gone.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: Economist]
    #7144777 - 07/08/07 01:23 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Anyone, please, one reason why we should feel justified in having any sort of presence in the Middle East.




I'm mostly concerned about pulling our military out of the middle east, but then NOT taking the gloves off of our multinational corporations.

Currently the US prohibits our Oil Companies from taking necessary action in order to compete for mid-eastern oil resources. As an example, if a corporation is caught paying bribes, the executives can go to jail.

Chinese and Russian oil concerns do not have these limitations. Currently (though crude) the US Military presence (and military and foreign aid) balances these limitations out. If we pull out of the middle east (which we definitely should, it's more trouble than it's worth) we need to also allow our corporations to do what is necessary to compete once we're gone.




Hold on a sec, maintaining a corporate presence in the mid-east will require a private military to guard their assets, wouldnt similar companies from China or Russia start adopting private militaries to protect their corporate assets.

In a future of globalism and free market, it seems any large corporation also needs a private security apparatus to ensure its shareholders maximum profits, I see this coming into conflict.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Saudis give a grim 'what if' should U.S. opt to leave Iraq [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7145511 - 07/08/07 08:14 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Two points here:

Not all in Iraq is as bad as those who run most of the media in this country would have you believe. Even the NYTimes has to occasionally post a positive story:
Quote:


The deal has all but ended the fighting in Ramadi and recast the city as a symbol of hope that the tide of the war may yet be reversed to favor the Americans and their Iraqi allies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/weekinreview/08burns.html?ex=1341547200&en=794a8c7902ff002b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss




Secondly, I understand a great many of your (all of you) frustrations about the complexity of the world. It is impossible to sort out fully, no single event can have it's repercussions perfectly predicted and the results of the path not taken can never be known. I have a neat big book, with dozens of chapters written by historians, about "What if...."certain events were slightly altered. Veritably, "what if the nail hadn't been lost..." Cool stuff and I learned a lot about events that did happen that I didn't know about, but it is essentially a wank. It is my very strongly held belief that not finishing Saddam the first time has been the cause of most of our problems (al Qaeda never mentioned Israel until they hired a PR arm and the mullahs had their own beef as well). But who's to say what that would have led to? Probably better but maybe worse because of the reluctance of the rest of the world at the time to be seen as invaders. Feckless, I think but there you have it, they perceived it to not be in their interests to do so, probably out of fear of US power which no longer had the Soviet foil.

Given all that, I can understand the desire to simplify down to what is more easily and directly in the complete control of our country. Isolationism. But that is never going to happen again. It is not an option. Any politician who tells you it is is lying. We can no longer NOT "meddle" in other nation's affairs. The world has shrunk. When was the last isolationist administration/congress? Not since before WW2 at the latest. And don't forget this; no matter what we do we are always going to really really piss somebody off. That is no call to retreat, it is a call for engagement, either positive or negative. Let them choose but give them incentives. Show them it is good to be our friends and bad to be our enemies, not vice versa. But ignoring them is not an option. I'd rather train them.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* American Soldiers Desperate to Leave Iraq
( 1 2 all )
SquattingMarmot 2,040 31 10/10/03 02:52 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Leave Iraq Alone. No war for oil!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Demon 6,935 114 10/28/05 04:54 PM
by looner2
* BUSH WANTS US TO LEAVE IRAQ daussaulit 567 7 10/05/04 06:08 PM
by murseh8r
* US running scared of Iraq elections
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Xlea321 7,134 77 02/05/04 06:07 PM
by mntlfngrs
* Harry Browne on Bush/Iraq Invasion
( 1 2 3 all )
Xochitl 6,544 43 06/22/06 05:15 PM
by Phred
* Bush Says US Must Stay in Iraq for Long Haul
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 1,347 21 11/02/03 09:05 PM
by monoamine
* Iraq guerrillas down US chopper, at least 13 dead
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Sorted 5,379 90 11/06/03 03:39 PM
by Xlea321
* Military families grow angry with state of Iraq war Zahid 1,008 4 10/30/03 02:21 PM
by PsiloKitten

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
1,024 topic views. 1 members, 7 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.