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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Problems I have with religious people
    #7141764 - 07/07/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I posted this in another forum but I wanted to post it here and see what kind of response I got:

I have always had an ardent disdain for most religious people. I think that if someone is choosing to devote their life to something as profound and all-encompassing as a belief in a supernatural power (and the important realizations that come along with this) then they should have a sharp intellect and they should be completely cognizant of the gravity of what they are doing. Every once in a while I will come into contact with a religious person who has a powerful mind and a great understanding of his beliefs. But, more often than not I encounter religious people who are too stupid to think things through for themselves, who half-heartedly practice their faith only to avoid supernatural punishment or because it is all they have ever known, or who are too weak and scared to face the harsh realities of the world so they putridly and obsequiously grovel before a system of thought that has conveniently laid a path out for them. It seems that to think for one’s self is much too arduous for most people.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7141818 - 07/07/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Let me be the first to congradulate you.

Or

Duh!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7142826 - 07/07/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:talkingtowall:  you gotta give yourself to christ, brah.  quit breakin duh law!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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OfflineWScott
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7142872 - 07/07/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"It seems that to think for one’s self is much too arduous for most people."

And what goal or benefit have you reached with your ability to think that religious human beings have been unable to?


--------------------

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: WScott]
    #7142874 - 07/07/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

No goal or benefit...I'm just a hell of a lot smarter than most of the ones I have met.

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OfflineWScott
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7142882 - 07/07/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
No goal or benefit...I'm just a hell of a lot smarter than most of the ones I have met.




Are you wise enough to know that comparison of our individual egos to those of others is where a lot of our problems arise?


--------------------

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: WScott]
    #7142892 - 07/07/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The real problem is those who think theyre right.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: WScott]
    #7142953 - 07/07/07 05:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If people act like sheep and seem incapable of understanding the gravity of their beliefs then I'm going to call them on it.  :shrug:

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OfflineWScott
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7142964 - 07/07/07 05:43 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
If people act like sheep and seem incapable of understanding the gravity of their beliefs then I'm going to call them on it.  :shrug:




Where do you fall in if you are neither sheep nor shepherd?


--------------------

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: WScott]
    #7143070 - 07/07/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nihilist.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143118 - 07/07/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Everybodies sick of getting pushed and dragged by the religious right, but dude, this kind generalization is one of their most popular tools!

Are you happy that society's general concensus on drug users is that they're fuckups?

You might argue that youre some kind of unique, special, or good kind of drug user, one who is only into hallucinogens, or just straight pot.... Or maybe you're a certain type of person who has control over his impulses...


There are many different types of religions and religious people as well.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: daytripper23]
    #7143138 - 07/07/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

But yea I generally agree with you. :lol:

On a side note, its weird how drugs and religion tends to hang in some sort of weird cosmic balance...

hmmmmmmmmmmm


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (07/07/07 06:42 PM)

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OfflineWScott
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143231 - 07/07/07 07:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Nihilist.




Nihilist Gum :grin:


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: daytripper23]
    #7143297 - 07/07/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

On a side note, its weird how drugs and religion tends to hang in some sort of weird cosmic balance...




How do they do that? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7143333 - 07/07/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Are you the person in your signature? If so, you're cute.

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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143377 - 07/07/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Are you the person in your signature? If so, you're cute.




Get in line, pal!

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Kinematics]
    #7143394 - 07/07/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes sir!

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143413 - 07/07/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes it's me.
Thank you :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7143433 - 07/07/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:kiss:

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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143704 - 07/07/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with you in that most people blindly follow their religion, just b/c that is all their have ever known.

I don't care what religion or faith people believe in, as long as they don't push their ideas on me or others, like how christians don't believe in abortion or gay marriage.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd

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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: ElectricJW]
    #7143719 - 07/07/07 09:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's very good for discussion, but I try to keep it with friends or with those who seem to be able to hold their own and not get angry or personal about it. For the most part, it's best just to separate yourself from it and concentrate on yourself. :smile:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7143955 - 07/07/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

On a side note, its weird how drugs and religion tends to hang in some sort of weird cosmic balance...




How do they do that? :strokebeard:




The more religion's presence is felt on this planet, the more drug use exponentially increases.... :smirk:

:bongload: :naughty:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7144197 - 07/07/07 11:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:


The more religion's presence is felt on this planet, the more drug use exponentially increases.... :smirk:

:bongload: :naughty:





Any suggestions? :smirk:


(I know I have some) :naughty:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7144730 - 07/08/07 01:05 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I try not to have problems with "religious people". Even if I cannot share their views, I can make an attempt to understand why they feel the way that they do. I find that more and more when I have problems with not accepting others it is because I am not accepting myself. Each person you meet is a reflection of you ultimately. If you cannot unconditionally accept yourself then accepting others is hard. I have no present interest in looking down on or persecuting those who just have some funny notions about what happens after we die. They can still be my brothers and sisters.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7145011 - 07/08/07 02:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

yes, if others are stupid we must ask ourselves why we are unable to
make them smarter when we meet them. turn the situation to its best;
ask what it says about yourself, rather than resenting others.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Lakefingers]
    #7146034 - 07/08/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

we must ask ourselves why we are unable to
make them smarter when we meet them




You can't make someone smarter. You can't make someone do anything. The only person that you control is yourself.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineJoseLibrado
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7146163 - 07/08/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"more often than not I encounter religious people who are too stupid to think things through for themselves, who half-heartedly practice their faith only to avoid supernatural punishment or because it is all they have ever known, or who are too weak and scared to face the harsh realities of the world so they putridly and obsequiously grovel before a system of thought that has conveniently laid a path out for them. It seems that to think for one’s self is much too arduous for most people."
Hmm i think i understand you. I will go on this, as best i can.
First sentence you called most religous people youve met too stupid, to see that their fear of supernatural punishment, is stupid? Do you accept this as truth, because this is what i understand, noting that its a possibility i have misunderstoof you.
Also, you say you are smarter than these people, which i can accept you believe. However, to say you somehow have a better intellect than them because you do not fear being punished supernaturally is, from everything i have experienced,flawed
Why: You and those people that you have an disdain for, come from a unique experience, incomparable to eachother, lest i forget that you have been both given different bodies/minds through which you express your beliefs out of and come to discover new beliefs through.
To say that you are somehow smarter than them is to assume that both you and the person you are comparing yourself to, started to become 'smarter', within the same experience and within the same body/mind.
Question: Is this possible?
Ive discovered it is not, we are all, both unique and incomparable, making all of our intellects the same, unique, as in a different type of intellect, not a better type of intellect. Your putting what is a relative term like smartness and intellect, on some absolute scale, which is fine as you will, to see which person would best suit who you are, at this moment, ie/ u prefer to enjoy experience with people who are similair to you, im guessing not in any case a religious extremist. But do not forget that saying that you are smarter than them is a statement within an absolute context that is not possible within a world where you are in relation to others. I hope you are not saying that you are better than, period, because this is where i dis-agreee, due to the fallacy of comparison scale.
The way i discovered is true, is to accept them for whom they are, beings trying their best with what they were given, to express the truth they have discovered.
bye now, see you all later.
With dignity. JLM


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7146262 - 07/08/07 12:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I try not to have problems with "religious people". Even if I cannot share their views, I can make an attempt to understand why they feel the way that they do. I find that more and more when I have problems with not accepting others it is because I am not accepting myself. Each person you meet is a reflection of you ultimately. If you cannot unconditionally accept yourself then accepting others is hard. I have no present interest in looking down on or persecuting those who just have some funny notions about what happens after we die. They can still be my brothers and sisters.




Precisely. We are all sovereign individuals, consciously or not so much consciously, and we all have the inalienable right to liberty. As long as we are not imposing upon anyone else's liberty, then so be it. I have no judgement for anyone ultimately, and an integral part of my path right now is releasing that judgement and preventing it from occuring again. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7149209 - 07/09/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Few people are built like Mr. Universe, and even fewer people have intellects which are constitutionally fit for delving into non-material realities. It is arrogance whenever we feel superior to other sentient beings because of superior musculature (which comes in handy when doing physically demanding projects) or big intellects (when it comes to discerning exactly what is most important to spend one's percious lifetime on). Between the physical and the intellectual, there is a spiritual aspect - an aspect which incorporates (literally) and transcends both body and mind. The multitudes are forced to take many things on faith - on the trusting of others - but it is very very important whom one trusts and this is the problem, not trust or faith.

Those who depend on their five senses are just 'sarkic,' or 'hylic' as the Gnostics said - fleshy. They have less understanding than lesser species who at least have instinct to guide their spinning of webs or rearing of offspring.
Unfortunately, doctrines contrived by less-than-honest human beings have poisoned humanity to such an extent that we have suicide bombers and we've had witch-hunters and inquisitioners, pogroms and persecutions, crusades and jihads. These are from those who are 'of the flesh,' and governed by worldy motives for power, status and world conquest.

Personally, I'll take a mythic Jesus over a historical Muhammed any day, but it is about which illustrates the more profound degree of Compassion that draws me like a moth to a light. I will, and I have experimented with modes of being that are intended to result in a more Compassionate Heart, with more 'letting-be' and with greater 'letting go' of my own attachments.

At 5:55 AM, July 9th, I will be 54 years old, and this is my first real thought of the day.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7149522 - 07/09/07 01:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
But, more often than not I encounter religious people who are too stupid to think things through for themselves, who half-heartedly practice their faith only to avoid supernatural punishment or because it is all they have ever known, or who are too weak and scared to face the harsh realities of the world so they putridly and obsequiously grovel before a system of thought that has conveniently laid a path out for them. It seems that to think for one’s self is much too arduous for most people.




A lesser-known tidbit about me (on these forums anyway) is that I'm religious, and I can completely understand how you feel.

For quite a while I seriously considered becoming a preacher (of something other than free-markets) just to try and get church-goers to actually read the Bible and really know what Jesus is telling us. It's not even about understanding for me, it's about just literally knowing the words: what the Bible actually says vs. what many people want you to believe it says.

My personal favorite example:
In Mark Chapter 7 Jesus makes 2 important statements:
1) You should not confuse the traditions of men for the word of God
2) Nothing that enters your body from the outside can truly defile you

And yet both of these are COMPLETELY IGNORED by 90% of Christianity. Ask most Christians what their position on drug use is. Then ask them why. Then tell them what Jesus actually said about things that enter your body from the outside, and watch them stare at you blankly...

How so many can manage to pervert a gospel of acceptance and understanding into one of persecution and exclusion I will never understand...

Edit: Editted for clarity in light of Orgoneconclusion's point

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7149530 - 07/09/07 01:22 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I posted this in another forum but I wanted to post it here and see what kind of response I got:

I have always had an ardent disdain for most religious people. I think that if someone is choosing to devote their life to something as profound and all-encompassing as a belief in a supernatural power (and the important realizations that come along with this) then they should have a sharp intellect and they should be completely cognizant of the gravity of what they are doing. Every once in a while I will come into contact with a religious person who has a powerful mind and a great understanding of his beliefs. But, more often than not I encounter religious people who are too stupid to think things through for themselves, who half-heartedly practice their faith only to avoid supernatural punishment or because it is all they have ever known, or who are too weak and scared to face the harsh realities of the world so they putridly and obsequiously grovel before a system of thought that has conveniently laid a path out for them. It seems that to think for one’s self is much too arduous for most people.


\

I know what you mean and I literally dread this topic. Many of my relatives are very hardcore christians and experts on the bible. Many of them spent years and their own money to be missionaries in verious 3rd world countries...

I'm not sure why they do it. But I am very reluctant to bring up anything to do with religion around them since I am such an anti christion. But because of that they seem to think I have no views on christianity... Oh well.

I will say that even the smartest "religious" person needs to have a bit of faith for things to hold together. I don't think a rational person can accept the bible as the words of God for example... yet so many do.

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149543 - 07/09/07 01:24 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
And yet both of these are COMPLETELY IGNORED by 90% of Christianity. Ask most Christians what their position on drug use is. Then ask them why. Then tell them what Jesus actually said about things that enter your body from the outside, and watch them stare at you blankly...




Quote:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.




The words of Jesus, Matthew 10:34-39

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149583 - 07/09/07 01:35 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

it's about just literally knowing the words: what Jesus actually said vs. what many people want you to believe he said.





If you really knew the Bible, then you would understand that not one writer was present in Jesus' day, so we have no clue what he really did or did not say.


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7149593 - 07/09/07 01:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't really want to derail this thread, and if you want to start a separate one, I'd be happy to discuss this with you, but I suspect you're missing the point on that passage.

The words of Jesus must be taken in context with the whole of his message. Individual lines are not wrong, they don't even have to be heavily "interpreted" but they do need context.

For example, the "sword" Jesus brings is not necessarily carried by his followers, but could also be carried against them (and was, according to the Bible). At several points in the Bible he also points out that he is the "everyman" or the "stranger" and people who take him in and show him love despite having never met him before are blessed. So, loving members of your immediate family more than the rest of the human race, especially to the point of ignoring others in need, makes you undeserving for failing to understand that we are all human. It's not actually about disowning your family, but about including all of humanity as your family.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149602 - 07/09/07 01:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If you really knew the Bible, then you would understand that not one writer was present in Jesus' day, so we have no clue what he really did or did not say.




Does that make a message of turning the other cheek any less relevant? Should we stop being generous and helping strangers simply because we can't figure out who really gave us that advice in the first place?

Frankly, I wouldn't care if the individual writers of the gospel made the whole thing up: it's the message that's the most important part, not whether Jesus actually said those exact words.

The words in the Bible are the message, and that is what I want people (who wish to be Christian) to read.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149620 - 07/09/07 01:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

not whether Jesus actually said those exact words




Quote:

it's about just literally knowing the words: what Jesus actually said




It is impossible to follow you when you contradict yourself within a few minutes. :rolleyes:


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149625 - 07/09/07 01:50 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What i can't understand is why should we base our values and morals from so-called avatars of god whose origin and history is hazy.

Can't we have set our values apart from the Bible and other scriptures?


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149634 - 07/09/07 01:53 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I mistyped in my first post, for that I apologize, but I felt that I made it fairly clear in my second post. The words of the Bible are the message, the message is what is important.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: shakercee]
    #7149645 - 07/09/07 01:57 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Too many people believe stuff in print, whether it is the Bible or Dr. Phil. They are uncertain and want to be told what to do and what to believe. It is a security blanket.


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: shakercee]
    #7149648 - 07/09/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
What i can't understand is why should we base our values and morals from so-called avatars of god whose origin and history is hazy.

Can't we have set our values apart from the Bible and other scriptures?




Have you ever asked anyone else for their opinion before making a decision?

It's the same idea. You know that the writers of the New Testament held certain values sacred (loving your neighbor, etc.) If you trust their judgement on those questions (hopefully because it coincides with your own judgement), you can look at what they said about other problems of which you may not be certain.

The Bible shouldn't replace your judgement or your conscience, but it can help to guide you if you have any questions.

Just because you have a map of the woods doesn't mean that you should close your eyes while hiking through them. You need your eyes open the entire time.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149654 - 07/09/07 02:00 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Too many people believe stuff in print, whether it is the Bible or Dr. Phil. They are uncertain and want to be told what to do and what to believe. It is a security blanket.




I would say that too many people are too proud (or arrogant) to ask for directions, even when they are truly lost.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149656 - 07/09/07 02:01 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The words of the Bible are the message




The message that tells us to kill or the message that tells us not to kill?


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149664 - 07/09/07 02:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote me where it tells us to kill.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149673 - 07/09/07 02:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I would say that too many people are too proud (or arrogant) to ask for directions, even when they are truly lost.




First one must assume the Bible has the answers, which I do not.

Secondly with hundreds of millions of followers of this 'map', one would expect to see more well-balanced people than non-followers if the map gave proper directions. However, all large-scale studies show this to not be the case.


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149675 - 07/09/07 02:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote me where it tells us to kill.




There are many instances in the bible that require stoning to death, including of disobedient children. I think they're all in the old testament though.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149689 - 07/09/07 02:13 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote me where it tells us to kill.



Simply amazing! Seems this atheist is much more familiar with your holy book than you.

Quote:

For quite a while I seriously considered becoming a preacher (of something other than free-markets) just to try and get church-goers to actually read the Bible



And you want church-goers (i.e. others - bone up on the mote parable please) to ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE when you have not? :rofl2:


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7149694 - 07/09/07 02:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
There are many instances in the bible that require stoning to death, including of disobedient children. I think they're all in the old testament though.




Virtually all of the time you hear claims like "the bible says to kill!" it is from the Old Testament. And this ignores the many times when the New Testament says not to listen to those parts of the Old Testament that have been confused with human tradition, Jesus seems to take particular issue with Leviticus (John 8, Mark 7).

Reading Old Testament passages without their New Testament commentary is like trying to read the Constitution of the US without the Amendments, you end up with some funny ideas about what the document actually means (3/5 comes to mind).

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149698 - 07/09/07 02:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Simply amazing! Seems this atheist is much more familiar with your holy book than you.




Cute, but I was asking you for a quote so I could debate it, now give me a quote or cede the point.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149701 - 07/09/07 02:18 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Secondly with hundreds of millions of followers of this 'map', one would expect to see more well-balanced people than non-followers if the map gave proper directions. However, all large-scale studies show this to not be the case.




So you don't think that large subsets of the human population should follow the bell-curve? Do you just not believe in statistics, or is this a personal thing?

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149714 - 07/09/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

loving your neighbors




Not when they are dumping their thrash in my compound :lol:

No, my point was the world has changed a lot from the Bible days.  It is always better to redefine our moral values and be aware.


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: shakercee]
    #7149717 - 07/09/07 02:26 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
It is always better to redefine our moral values and be aware.




Do you really think so? It's funny because most of my observations have shown me that the more things change, the more humans can be predicted to behave the exact same ways we always have.

Sure, some things are definitely newer (issues like patent-drug-access clearly didn't exist in the times of the Bible) but most human behavior seems pretty constant.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7149727 - 07/09/07 02:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, she's super hot, we're all settled on that.

As far as weakness or inability to think for oneself or going with what one knows, everyone, bar none, does that. I wear pants, and usually either a button down or tee shirt. Why? No real reason. I could wear a sarong, or a kilt, or I could be a nudist. I wear these clothes because they're what I know and what's commonly available here. Generally black pants, and black or dark colored shirts, like everyone else I know. Well, most people wear jeans. But you get the idea.

But some people get real creative with their clothes. Some people put a lot of thought and time and effort into their clothes. Clothes are their thing. They have a kind of disdain for people who don't care about clothes, and we have kind of a disdain for them.

And so the same goes for religeous/philosophical thought. Ya gotta have it. You're human. At some point you're going to look around and be like "Now how the fuck did all this get here?" And for people who's thing is clothes or agriculture or texas style line dancing, it's easier to just not think about it and go with what's commonly available.

There are a lot of things in our every day lives that could just be extrapolated and thought about and dissected, and the consequences of which are equally encompassing.

That said, it is the mob/herd mentality that frustrates. A good faith, I think, is one that dosen't push prosthelyzation or threaten hell. Like Buddhism. God is a patient mother fucker, and it'll wait for you to come around at your own pace.


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149870 - 07/09/07 03:24 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cute, but I was asking you for a quote so I could debate it.




Debate its existence?

Once again I cannot follow you. Your statements shift with each post.


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7149885 - 07/09/07 03:28 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Virtually all of the time you hear claims like "the bible says to kill!" it is from the Old Testament.




The Old Testament is the major literary portion of The Bible.

A while ago you denied there were such contrary messages, now you acknowledge them.

Can you take a stance and stick to it for more than a millisecond?


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7149936 - 07/09/07 04:35 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
I know what you mean and I literally dread this topic. Many of my relatives are very hardcore christians and experts on the bible. Many of them spent years and their own money to be missionaries in verious 3rd world countries...




Well, at least they are real and educated Christians. I can respect that. So many Christians are half-assed in practising their religion.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Economist]
    #7150266 - 07/09/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, but the more pertinent fact is that 'drugs' are 'pharmakeia' in the ancient world, and pharmakeia also means sorcery. In fact sorcery, as in many traditions of shamanism, is identical with mastery of certain substances be it ayahuasca, amanita muscaria, cohoba or whatever. Sorcery is also on the lower chthonic end of the magickal spectrum.

Nevertheless, the question as to whether taking entheogens is 'edifying' and as St. Paul said about his freedom, (1 Cor. 6:12) "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." Addiction is possible even with entheogens - the need to 'get high' instead of learning to 'be high' (often without inebriation) is the problem.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7150352 - 07/09/07 08:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I have made myself misunderstood.
We make others smarter in ourselves. I agree, usually you cannot change
others, but there is always a matter of what responsibility one takes
in the situation, what tone one sets. With the right mood and action you
can make others shine.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7150358 - 07/09/07 08:38 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Which version(s) of the Bible do you study?

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Lakefingers]
    #7150656 - 07/09/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I prefer to read the King James for pleasure, but I got accustomed to the Revised Standard Version while in seminary. I know there are additional translations, but since I'm not a professional academic, I haven't kept up.


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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7150705 - 07/09/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Happy b-day from one 54 year old to another.:monkeydance:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7154311 - 07/09/07 11:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Virtually all of the time you hear claims like "the bible says to kill!" it is from the Old Testament.




The Old Testament is the major literary portion of The Bible.

A while ago you denied there were such contrary messages, now you acknowledge them.

Can you take a stance and stick to it for more than a millisecond?




First, I accidentally made one contradictory statement by mistyping, I have edited the orignal post for clarity, everything beyond that is clearly an attempt by you to manufacture contradiction that does not exist.

Second, I have never claimed that there are not some "bible quotes" that, taken out of context, call for killing. You are attempting to attribute a stance to me that is not mine, another example of manufacturing contradiction that does not exist.

Third, as I have explained, the New Testament:Bible::Ammendments:Constitution of the US. Pointing out parts of the Old Testament that call for killing is like pointing out that the original constitution allowed for slavery.

Did the Old Testament state that death was sometimes called for? Yes. Is this ammended in the New Testament? Certainly.

I wanted you to give me a Bible quote so that I could debate its meaning in light of the New Testament. Given that you have yet to provide a quote, and your attempts to attribute statements to me that I did not make, I am increasingly suspecting that you are actually just talking out of your ass and know nothing about the Bible.

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Re: Problems I have with religious people [Re: Icelander]
    #7154438 - 07/09/07 11:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks Icelander!

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