|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7165849 - 07/12/07 12:02 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Are you aware that no one at Steorn has either?
Oh, they claim they have eight PhD physicists on staff who reject the first law of thermodynamics, but they CONVEEEENIIENTLY refuse to name them citing confidentiality agreements.
WTF?
You have to be big time gullible to believe this shit.
where doe's the energy in the casimir force come from?
The Casimir force is a force. It's not energy. 
And no one is denying that that zero-point energy exists. What we're denying is that it can be harnessed. What Steorn is proposing is about the same as having a ship sailing the oceans with no fuel and getting its energy by sucking up ocean water, removing the heat for its own use, then dumping ice cubes overboard.
If you think this is possible, then I have some swampland you might want to buy.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7165906 - 07/12/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Also I would like you all to answer one question for me where doe's the energy in the casimir force come from?
The effect is only actually observed with conducting plates, and comes from the fact that two parallel conducting plates only have a certain subset of electromagnetic waves in between them. In the area outside the plates, there are virtually infinite number of EM waves that can exist. This creates a tiny energy imbalance, observed as a tiny force drawing the two plates together.
I emphasize "tiny" because the observed effect is so small.
The "zero point field" is incredibly weak...so weak in fact that it is the weakest possible energy state. Let that sink in for a second...
OK, so if it's the lowest of all possible energy states...why do you think that you can extract energy from it?
Much more plausible, but also much harder, would be to find a way to have energy flow into the ZPF...and to use that energy flow to get energy out in the process (kind of like a water wheel...you can extract some of the energy from the falling water).
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva



Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 354
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: Diploid]
#7165911 - 07/12/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Dude if you think force's aren't energy then you just ended your agruement with me right there. Oh the casimir effect is weak is it maybe to the observer but inside the ZPE it has the energy density of a atomic nucleus. Im not saying there going to extract the casimir effect. Im saying the casimir effect show's that there is energy appearing out of nowhere and this is the where ZPE will be extracted from the very wheel-work of nature as the great genius Nikola Tesla pointed out to the world 100 year's ago yet no one listened then either. Kinda sad how everyone spend's their time trying to disprove thing's that might actually be be the most important discovery of our age.
-------------------- “I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T “Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature." - Nikola Tesla
Edited by buddhahoodlum (07/12/07 12:23 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7165932 - 07/12/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Force is not energy. 
How much energy is given off by a book applying a force to a desk by sitting there?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7165942 - 07/12/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No offense, but if you think forces are energy...maybe you should take a few more classes on physics at your local high school...
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva



Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 354
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: Diploid]
#7165977 - 07/12/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Force is not energy. 
How much energy is given off by a book applying a force to a desk by sitting there?
That's not what you were debating but what you did say is that a force has no energy so how do assume that force was created to begin with?
-------------------- “I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T “Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature." - Nikola Tesla
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7165995 - 07/12/07 12:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't even know where to begin. Clearly, your misunderstanding of basic high school physics precludes even discussing this with you in any meaningful way.
Force is not energy no matter how many times you say it is and until you understand this basic foundation, I might as well be discussing physics with a chicken.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva



Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 354
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: Diploid]
#7165999 - 07/12/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No again force in itself is not energy but it's created with energy that's what I already said quit misinterpreting me you are uncanny at it.
-------------------- “I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T “Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature." - Nikola Tesla
Edited by buddhahoodlum (07/12/07 12:43 PM)
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7166073 - 07/12/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
buddhahoodlum said: Dude if you think force's aren't energy then you just ended your agruement with me right there.
Quote:
buddhahoodlum said: No again force in itself is not energy but it's created with energy that's what I already said quit misinterpreting me you are uncanny at it.
So which is it?
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7166130 - 07/12/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
> force in itself is not energy but it's created with energy
Force = newtons = kg.m/s^2 Energy = joules = kg.m^2/s^2 Power = watts = kg.m^2/s^3
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
supercollider
superconducting



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 1,234
Loc: Waxahachie
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7166199 - 07/12/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
OK Buddha, I'm amazed you're still going on about this and I realize now that nobody here is going to change your mind.
That means it's the perfect time to make a bet! I propose a very real cash bet, any amount you're comfortable with. My money says Steorn will never successfully demonstrate this or any other free energy device. Do you accept?
-------------------- Supercollider? I just met her!
|
Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA




Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 1 year, 20 days
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: trendal]
#7166251 - 07/12/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Let's get some frame of reference built up here. The casimir force is a weak force, this is accepted as a fact.
To help others (and me, honestly) understand this... how does the casimir force compare to another weak force... such as gravity?
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: Konnrade]
#7166325 - 07/12/07 02:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well to be exact, the Casimir effect is not a force...but rather a reaction to a set of forces, such as gravity. It isn't usually worked out for a field like gravity, because due to gravity's astounding weakness the effect would be equally as small.
The EM force is the only one of consequence to the Casimir effect, and even that produces a very weak effect.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
Acyl
cyanidepoisoning


Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 4,472
Loc: N.W.T.
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: buddhahoodlum]
#7166370 - 07/12/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Some business student made this shit up with the intent to scam the general uneducated public after having read some cool physics stuff.
Its pretty elaborate, probably had atleast 10 people working full time on it for months. Props to him.
--------------------
1 ,2
|
Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA




Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 1 year, 20 days
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: trendal]
#7166374 - 07/12/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Ack, that zoomed right over my head... this is why I wasn't terribly fond of phsyics, so many questions have answers with a very intimidating syntax.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
|
HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher


Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 20 days, 18 hours
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: trendal]
#7167011 - 07/12/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So would I be correct to assume that the Casimir effect would not work inside of a Faraday cage?
In case it isn't clear, this is just something I thought about when reading your post and should in no way identify me as being in agreement with buddhahoodlum. In fact it's quite the contrary.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7167075 - 07/12/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The Casimir effect is an all-pervasive property of space, like gravity and the electromagnetic field. A Faraday cage can't change that.
What a Faraday cage does is attenuate the propagation of disturbances in the electromagnetic field. This is why they're used in the testing and calibration of radios during manufacturing, for example.
Way back when I used to work, I spent many hours refining radio designs in Faraday cages at Motorola's facility in Boynton Beach, Florida. My cell phone never worked in there for some strange reason.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher


Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 20 days, 18 hours
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: Diploid]
#7167113 - 07/12/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Ah. I had believed that a Faraday cage blocked all electromagnetic waves
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: HagbardCeline]
#7167168 - 07/12/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It mostly blocks them, yes, that's why they're used to design and calibrate radios. Almost no EM waves from outside can get in because the cage is connected to a grounding system which shunts (essentially) all EM waves to ground.
But the Casimir effect is given rise by virtual particles which are unrelated to electromagnetism.
The theories that characterize virtual particles make some very weird predictions. For example, the Feynman diagrams used to study them show them oscillating back and forth through time at picosecond scales. But weird though that may be, they can't be exploited for a free lunch (energy).
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva



Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 354
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Steorn Perpetual Motion Machine Flops [Re: Diploid]
#7167513 - 07/12/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You'll see steorn will prove the skeptic's wrong.
-------------------- “I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T “Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature." - Nikola Tesla
|
|