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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Fighting back after 9/11
    #713194 - 06/30/02 12:08 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Here is a post practically guaranteed to get some heat generated. Sorry if this was posted before...I have not seen it.

I most definitely consider myself a pacifist. I appose ever war in America's history and I am anti-NRA, etc. I appose violence almost universally. I say almost because this War on Terrorism thing has got me conflicted. While I have been criticized, I tend to side with Amnesty International and think that the Government has drummed up sympathy and used it to perform a myriad of operations that have nothing to do with terrorism. But here is my question... What should the US response be to the attack? Like I said, I am a pacifist but I don't think we can kiss and make up with Osoma. I don't think he would be willing to say "Oh, ya sorry about that", and we could all move on. Further more, if he is alive he is most definitely a threat. So, my opinion is we should do our best to find him and his men and then either imprison or kill them. Now, that's not a very pacifistic view but like I said we can't just talk it out with him.

I am hoping someone changes my mind because I don't want to hurt anyone but if he continues to live than he will continue to kill, so it seems logical to me to defend ourselves. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I am all about the way Bush is handling the situation, I just am looking for a bit of self-defense.

Any comments?


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713201 - 06/30/02 12:12 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Two years ago, I operated a international charity,, I suggested to high level politicians, celebrities, that we invest in Afghanistan, Congo, Palestine,, with high level tech. Desaltinazition plants to produce available water, (droughts still a life death situation in these underdeveloped countries) solar power to produce power, and advanced farming technique, such that new zealand has devloped, hydroponic greenhouses. I suggest we still do the same thing.

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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713210 - 06/30/02 12:15 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

We should whoop his fucking ass.

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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713219 - 06/30/02 12:17 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Terrorism is a can of worms opened by, in great part, the global power play, the grossly unbalanced distribution of wealth, and the high consumption rate of such Western societies as the U.S. Those three are interconnected.

But like you said, the can is open. So now what? I just wish we shared a sense of urgency toward resolving the above three problems as we do toward defending ourselves. It is suicidally myopic to fight terrorism with our military might, in particular when it is the one-sided effort it currently is.

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Invisibletak_old
Endo Smoke

Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 609
Loc: State of confusion
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: hongomon]
    #713332 - 06/30/02 01:26 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I wanna see us destroy ourselves. Or change everything. But the way we have been going is getting real boring. I need change. Maybe all you virgos who like order might disagree :P But i like change.

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713912 - 06/30/02 06:32 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

" I appose ever war in America's history.."
------------

If we hadn't fought the Revolutionary War, there would be no America to argue over.
This country was born of war.
Hello??

Pacifism may be a personal virtue, but if we adopt it as a national one, we won't have a nation for long.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineChubbSubb
Zen Lunatic

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 612
Loc: Here.
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Jellric]
    #713982 - 06/30/02 06:48 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Should we be proud to live in a country "born" from war???


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #714082 - 06/30/02 07:10 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I see where Jellric is coming from. And I think that's what Shroomalicious is getting at as well--where do we draw the line? Right now we are so out of balance--we're all about war. Maybe everything has a season, and if war has one, the American Revolution is a good example. But right now...

Have you guys checked out the video Eightball posted at the Political forum? I recommend it.

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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Jellric]
    #714436 - 06/30/02 08:49 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If we hadn't fought the Revolutionary War, there would be no America to argue over.

I prefer to think this nation was born out of a desire to be free. We are getting into a whole other matter here but after studying history extensively, I have concluded that the British Tyranny was laregly exagerated. It may be to easy to say this from my comfortable seat some 225 years later but it doesn't appear that the Colonials acted any better than the United Kingdom. I am not sure we did a whole lot of other things before we picked up and went the way of force, Of course, I am not saying I could have done any better at the time.

Pacifism may be a personal virtue, but if we adopt it as a national one, we won't have a nation for long.

That is the point I am trying to debate, how much should we hug our enemies before we decide its a neccessity that we fight back or else we die.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

Edited by Shroomalicious (06/30/02 08:56 PM)

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #714888 - 07/01/02 02:43 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

First your post belongs to the political discussion, and second violence creates more violence, you want to fight make, this a better world were people will have no need for terrorism, all powerful countries are terrorist to, they just do it in a different way but the effect is the same or worst.
This fits in to Swamis post about boundaries, for you he is a terrorist for others he is a freedom fighter, who is right?
No one is, just madness.
You say that you are a pacifist, well this is the moment to prove it, not when every thing is well and dandy, if not you are just another sheep swept by the machine.


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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #714918 - 07/01/02 03:16 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with Lobo on all counts.

Violence breeds more violence.. and this thread should be in Political Discussion..so that's where I'm moving it to.

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Offlinemrfreedom
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Registered: 11/21/01
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #715473 - 07/01/02 10:13 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I have posted on this numerous times on numerous sites, this war and why it is a moral action. I have also discussed, to some extent, the nature of the corruption, in our government, that will eventually turn our MORAL right to defend ourselves into an immoral war on the citizens of the U.S., as well as other nations.

As to the principle of violence, on whatever scale one wishs to choose, be that individual self defense or the greater violence of war on a national scale, violence is irrelevant in the discussion. The only moral reason for violence is SELF DEFENSE. As a godless, son of a bitch, I must confess that I don't understand nor respect a pacifist, for what purpose is pacifism? One claims to falue ALL life but that value is less than the life itself? What is your greatest gift, your life of course, and by what value system do you contend that YOUR life is NOT worth fighting for? here is a real good question. Taken to the extreme, why don't all pacifists just die by starvation, that way you can say you NEVER took a life nor committed an act of violence, not even to a plant.

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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #716229 - 07/01/02 04:10 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

First your post belongs to the political discussion

I thought what was being discussed was the philosophy of fighting back versus the philosophy of trying to repond with compassion.

and second violence creates more violence, you want to fight make, this a better world were people will have no need for terrorism, all powerful countries are terrorist to, they just do it in a different way but the effect is the same or worst. This fits in to Swamis post about boundaries, for you he is a terrorist for others he is a freedom fighter, who is right?

Friend, please don't speak for me. I don't think anything negative about Swami and I
certaintly don't think of him as a terrorist. I also TOTALLY AGREE that the UN is doing just as much Terrorism as a lot of other nations only under the titles of "Peace Keeping".

You say that you are a pacifist, well this is the moment to prove it, not when every thing is well and dandy, if not you are just another sheep swept by the machine.

What do you sugest we do then? Seriously I want an answer becuase I think we should fight back but something is telling me this is wrong...but if we don't fight back don't you think that that will just let the Terrorists do more damage than we would?

I don't even hate Osoma bin Laden, I don't condone a thing he has done but I don't hate him. However, if he runs free I think he could cause more harm than if he is allowed not to.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #716233 - 07/01/02 04:11 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Also, I mean fighting back but NOT the way the US is doing it. I don't agree at all with this War on Terrorism because I don't think they are doing what they are saying.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #716298 - 07/01/02 04:35 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

People have sacrificed their lives so that you could hold your pacifist ideas.

Conflict is an inevitable part of existence. It is noble to pursue peace, but you must be ready to fight. If you are not, then you will not survive. In order to ensure your continued existence, you must be prepared to crush your enemies if they leave you no other choice.

RandalFlagg

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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #716502 - 07/01/02 06:11 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know who said it, but it's something to think about...

"I can see a world where this is no poverty and no war, I can also see us attacking that world because they would never expect it."

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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: ]
    #717217 - 07/02/02 03:17 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts."
Bertold Brecht

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #717606 - 07/02/02 08:31 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

My friend I only pointed out to read swami's post, has a relation to your question, I don't know how you took that for me implying that you hate swami.
My opinion is simple, the terrorists, Bin laden and who ever you want to include, is the best thing that happen to this government, they need a new bad guy to justify there game (soviets no more) they are not even looking for Bin laden, they want him a live to keep the threat alive.
This game is going on for a long time now is nothing new just different names, I for once am not going to fall to that game, but if you guys want to, go ahead blow the hole world up, live with hate if that's what makes you tickle, I gave up on humans a long time ago most of them are hate fool, ignorant and highly destructive.
Mark Twain use to say something like this.
"At my age I don't care if he is white, black, yellow, Christian, Muslim or Jewish, if it's human worst thing could not be"
Something like that.
My two cents


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #717749 - 07/02/02 09:27 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Lobo me and you have much more in common than you think. America has always had an enemy to do things in the name of that were aweful...we share lots of opinions man.

After careful consideration and some serious meditation I have found the answer to my dilemma. It goes like this...we attack them, so they attack us (9/11), so we attack them back...so they will attack us, etc. Where does war stop? If everyone claims self defense then were does peace start? I will tell where, it starts with me. I don't condone a strick back, AND I NEVER CONDONED A BUSH LEAD STRIKE.

One opinion I don't ever see myself with is your giving up on humans. Humans have a great capacity for love and to give up on them is to lose all hope and to surrender to that, is just another form of hate, IMO. You are not exactly hateful but how is thinking the general human race as hateful not hateful itself? I think most humans just want to do what is best and we just don't agree with their tactics...deep down inside I think we all want the best for our brothers and sisters, I know I do.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #719428 - 07/03/02 01:44 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

My friend, in my case I do condone bush policy's, the reasons are as fallowing:
First we lately always pick on the week ones (how convenient), second we are always boosting to the world how democratic and civilize we are (but no one in history has used more brutal force than us), and third with grate power comes grate responsibility.
The reason that I feel so frustrated with us monkeys, is that I see in the case of our country that we have the potential and the resources to make this a better world ( and for a fraction of the price we are spending now), we could go down in history as the country that saved the world but the way we are going, is going to be the one that destroyed it.
And for what, for a few greedy bastards that have more than they can chew.
I put the USA as an example because it is the super power at the moment, but all the rest are the same thing if they had the power.
It is a human condition.
I believe if we don't change fast, nature will change us for good.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #721664 - 07/03/02 10:45 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

LOBO writes:

no one in history has used more brutal force than us

Really? What about Rome, Attila the Hun, Spain in the New World, Germany, Japan, Stalin, Pol Pot, roughly a dozen African countries, The Balkans... the list goes on.

we could go down in history as the country that saved the world...

The United States has already gone down in history as the country that saved the world. Or at least all of Europe and large parts of the Pacific. This happened around sixty years ago. Maybe you've heard of World War II?

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: hongomon]
    #721706 - 07/03/02 11:09 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

hongomon writes:

Terrorism is a can of worms opened by, in great part, the global power play, the grossly unbalanced distribution of wealth, and the high consumption rate of such Western societies as the U.S.

None of this is true. Terrorism is caused almost exclusively by tribalism and/or religion. Please explain what the high rate of consumption in the US has to do with African tribes slaughtering each other. What does unbalanced distribution of wealth have to do with the current Islamic terrorist surge in the Phillipines? What does a "global power play" (whatever that means) have to do with the Sendero Luminoso in Peru? What do any of those three things have to do with the mess in what used to be Yugoslavia? How were any of those three things the motivating factor for the nightmare in Lebanon?

Please give us an example of a terrorist group whose stated motivation for terror is to correct the inequities of the distribution of wealth, to put an end to "global power plays", or to slow the consumption rate of the West. Any one will do. Greenpeace doesn't count.

Heck, even Osama bin Laden's oft-repeated justifications for the September 11 attack make no mention of high consumption or distribution of wealth or global power plays. His justification is that the Infidels are defiling the sacred places; i.e a RELIGIOUS motive.

It is suicidally myopic to fight terrorism with our military might...

It is axiomatic that a dead terrorist is incapable of killing more people. If the terrorist lives within the boundaries of the US, he can be handled by law enforcement agencies and the courts -- i.e Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber. If the terrorist lives outside the jurisdiction of US law enforcement, then of course the military must be involved.

Or do you think it might be better to get Jesse Jackson to persuade Osama and the boys to see the light? Presuming, of course, that:

1) Jesse would know where to find him

2) Fanatical fundamentalist infidel-hating Muslims would listen to a black American infidel.

If there is one thing history has shown, it's that rational discussion and diplomatic negotiations sometimes have no effect. If the military option is useless, what IS the answer?

Please enlighten us.

pinky


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #721814 - 07/04/02 02:20 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Really? What about Rome, Attila the Hun, Spain in the New World, Germany, Japan, Stalin, Pol Pot, roughly a dozen African countries, The Balkans... the list goes on.





Well most of those never claimed to be freedom lovers civilized and democrats, and non used nuclear weapons on civilian targets, and the amount of carpet bombings that we have done.
Do some research and you will be astonish how many people died in Vietnam, or even in Iraq, with all our smart bombs
In reply to:

The United States has already gone down in history as the country that saved the world. Or at least all of Europe and large parts of the Pacific. This happened around sixty years ago. Maybe you've heard of World War II?




Funny if you go to Russia, they say the exact same thing; if you go to England they say the exact same thing.
You have been watching to many movies.
All I am saying that we are no different than any other country, we are not the good guys like they made us believe we where.
Meditate on this, Imagine that instead of us, the Russian were the ones to drop the A bomb on Japan, we would still be hearing how inhuman the Russians were to have done something so atrocious like that until the end of history.
But yet we have manage to even justify this crime and made it seem like the right choice.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #721833 - 07/04/02 02:57 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Where you came up with such a twisted view of history is beyond me.



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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #721863 - 07/04/02 04:12 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Lobo writes:
Funny if you go to Russia, they say the exact same thing; if you go to England they say the exact same thing.

Don't ask the Russians, ask the Poles, ask the Belgiums, ask the people who were liberated. My wife is from The Netherlands, I have talked to older members of her family who went through the bombing raids and German occupation. I can assure you that their perception and opinions hold that the U.S. is who saved them. They might not always agree with the current political decisions of our leadership, but they know the history that they lived through.

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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #722165 - 07/04/02 08:02 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)


Hey, I know the Irreconciable Differences thread is buried on page three, but I'd appreciate it if you'd have a look at it.

I sense in your posts a strong commitment to maintaining a black-and-white take on the world's affairs. I don't share it.

For example: "Terrorism is caused almost exclusively by tribalism and/or religion."

So, being in a tribe, or being in a religion, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, will make me want to blow other people up? No.

Another: "It is axiomatic that a dead terrorist is incapable of killing more people."

It is both axiomatic and a gross oversimplification. Your specialty. What about that terrorist's son, or daughter, or cousin? Whether they are right to react how they do to that terrorist's death is irrelevant. Obviously we need to defend our lives, and that will mean killing terrorists. But are you suggesting it's as simple as that?

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
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Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: ]
    #724090 - 07/05/02 03:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

My friend Evolving, I am not that crazy in not seeing that with out US. involment on WW2 we will probably having this correspondence in German, but I worked with British people and they really believe that we had a very small part in the war and that they were the ones to really win it, so who is right and who is wrong? Perhaps we will never know for sure because we were not there.
The point that I want to bring up is about indoctrination, the stories that they been telling us since kids, which in, most cases have nothing to do with the real reasons of why things happen in history.
I feel that the current system that we have now is separating us more and more with the rest of the world, not un like what happen to the roman empire.(and we all know how that ended up)
Like I stated before, I feel that we as a nation have the potential and freedom to really make this a better world, but the powers in charge just want to oppress it.
But in order to change we have to see our selves and analyze our wrong doings, so we won't commit them again, and if possible make amends, nobody likes to see it's own defects it is painful to admit them, well this works the same as with countries.
But as long as we keep complaining that every body hates us, and putting the blame on others nothing is going to change.
Did any one in this forum really ask the question why the terrorist did what they did?
And please don't give me the answer that bush gave "because the envy our freedom"
And before anyone attacks me, I don't justify what they did, all acts of violence are never justifiable.



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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #724121 - 07/05/02 04:21 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The point that I want to bring up is about indoctrination, the stories that they been telling us since kids, which in, most cases have nothing to do with the real reasons of why things happen in history.
The public school system is a great tool of indoctrination. This is why I support the seperation of school and state.


But in order to change we have to see our selves and analyze our wrong doings, so we won't commit them again, and if possible make amends...
I agree.


Did any one in this forum really ask the question why the terrorist did what they did?
And please don't give me the answer that bush gave "because the envy our freedom"

Why did they attack us? Osama Bin Laden explicity stated the reason, however this has been largely ignored by those who desire America to be an empire. We were attacked because we have not heeded the counsel of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to avoid entangling and permanent alliances. We have ignored the warnings of Dwight D. Eisenhower about the military-industrial complex. How many military outposts does America have throughout the globe? How many are necessary for the defense of America (not the defense of large corporate political doner's business interests)?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #724267 - 07/05/02 07:16 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

LOBO writes:

Well most of those never claimed to be freedom lovers civilized and democrats...

That wasn't your point, and that wasn't what you stated. You said:

no one in history has used more brutal force than us

That is clearly untrue.

Imagine that instead of us, the Russian were the ones to drop the A bomb on Japan...

What was important was not WHO did it, but that it ended the worst war in human history. I personally would have cheered if the Tongans had done it.

But yet we have manage to even justify this crime and made it seem like the right choice.

It is a crime in YOUR eyes, looking back on it from a safe distance of fifty seven years in the future. It is justified because Japan surrendered and withdrew it's occupation of several countries, ultimately saving the lives of potentially up to a million combatants on both sides, not to mention the non-combatants.

Read some history.

pinky





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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: hongomon]
    #724340 - 07/05/02 08:17 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

hongomon writes:

So, being in a tribe, or being in a religion, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, will make me want to blow other people up? No.

Of course it won't. It also takes a certain mindset. But the vast majority of terrorist acts are motivated by precisely those two factors. It's factionalism, not economics, which is the driving force.

But who are the targets of the Phillipine terrorists? Those of a different religion or tribe. Who are the targets of the Middle Eastern terrorists? Those of a different religion AND tribe. Who were the targets of the Ugandan and Rwandan and Somali and Ethiopian (etc., etc., unfortunately in Africa the list is a lengthy one) terrorists? Those of a different religion or tribe. Yugoslavia? same answer. The terrorist attacks in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh? Same answer.

Did any of those targets have anything to do with YOUR three stated motives?

Nope.

I repeat, please give us a single example of a single terrorist attack where the stated motive was any one of your three reasons.

What about that terrorist's son, or daughter, or cousin?

What about them? To refrain from punishing a terrorist for fear that MAYBE one or some of his relatives MAY choose to follow in his footsteps is patently foolish.

Let's take the example of the guy who shot up the El-Al ticket counter yesterday. He was gunned down before he could kill more innocents than he already had. Should the security personnel have waited till he ran out of ammunition and then captured him, in order to prevent some of his cousins from avenging his death?

I will agree it's not ALWAYS necessary to kill them. If they can be captured and imprisoned for life THEY won't kill again. Of course, the big problem with imprisonment is that in many cases it triggers a wave of terrorist reprisals. You apparently are younger than I, so it may come as news to you that dozens, perhaps hundreds, of IRA bombings were done in order to "free the boyos". The IRA demands were that Seamus and Sean be released. The same was true of the spate of airline hijackings in the Seventies... the most common (almost universal, in fact) demand of the hijackers, WHICHEVER group was involved, was the release of this or that group of imprisoned "political martyrs" -- i.e. captured terrorists.

Whether they are right to react how they do to that terrorist's death is irrelevant.

Agreed.

Obviously we need to defend our lives...

Obviously.

...and that will mean killing terrorists.

Sadly, this is true. But it is the terrorists' actions that precipitate their deaths, not the reverse.

But are you suggesting it's as simple as that?

In some cases it IS as simple as that. It is sadly true that many in the terrorist business LIKE to kill. The stated "cause" is merely an excuse. Once their cause is reached, or withers on the vine (as happened to many of the Baader-Meinhof group once East Germany reunified with the West) those terrorists move on to a different cause. They're professional killers. It's what they DO, for pete's sake.

Is that true of ALL terrorists? Nope. But it IS true of a distressingly high percentage of them. Bin Laden is a prime example. He aided the Afghanis rebels against the Soviet occupation. Once the Soviets left, he turned to other causes, i.e. the downfall of the house of Saud and the expulsion of the Infidel from the Holy Places. My bet is that (always presuming he evades capture) if the House of Saud is overthrown and the American garrison heads home, Bin Laden will next pop up in Pakistan, engineering terrorist acts against India. Or maybe in the Phillipines.

He won't stop till he's dead, simple as that.. And there are many, MANY others just like him.

The ONLY way to stop terrorism at the root is to remove the motivation. Since we are not all one tribe or religion, that will never happen. Some Tutsis will always hate the Hottentots. Some Muslims will always hate the Jews. Some Croats will always hate the Serbs. It has been that way for centuries, and some of those people are still avenging events that happened in the year 1200 AD.

It's hard for Americans, with their instant pop culture and essential lack of roots, to grasp just how important this ancient history is to some folks; important to the point of being all-consuming. It seems unbelievable, but I assure you that these people DO think this way, and they teach their children to think the same way. There is nothing -- I repeat, NOTHING -- that America can do or refrain from doing that will change this mindset.

As an example close to home, my girlfriend is Croatian. She is a wonderful person and otherwise extremely intelligent, but she has a pathological hatred of Serbs. Her entire family drummed that hatred into her from practically the time she learned to speak, and she can recite chapter and verse every single atrocity perpetrated on her "people" by the Turks and Serbs and who knows WHO else in an unbroken line for more than a millenium. I love her, but I can't budge her on this even one little bit. I keep saying, "Sweetie, what does it MATTER? Something that happened in the eleventh century has nothing to do with YOU!" Her reply is, "I'm Croatian. It has EVERYTHING to do with me. You just can't understand."

She's right about that, I must say.

Since you can't change their motivation, the best solution I can think of (and I'm not alone in this) is to kill them. Let's face it, they have already amply demonstrated their preferred method of human interaction is murder. They have therefore voluntarily renounced their own individual rights. So be it. He who lives by the sword shall die by it.

pinky


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