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 Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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 Re: Fighting back after 9/11  [Re: LOBO]
#721664 - 07/03/02 10:45 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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LOBO writes:
no one in history has used more brutal force than us
Really? What about Rome, Attila the Hun, Spain in the New World, Germany, Japan, Stalin, Pol Pot, roughly a dozen African countries, The Balkans... the list goes on.
we could go down in history as the country that saved the world...
The United States has already gone down in history as the country that saved the world. Or at least all of Europe and large parts of the Pacific. This happened around sixty years ago. Maybe you've heard of World War II?
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: hongomon]
#721706 - 07/03/02 11:09 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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hongomon writes:
Terrorism is a can of worms opened by, in great part, the global power play, the grossly unbalanced distribution of wealth, and the high consumption rate of such Western societies as the U.S.
None of this is true. Terrorism is caused almost exclusively by tribalism and/or religion. Please explain what the high rate of consumption in the US has to do with African tribes slaughtering each other. What does unbalanced distribution of wealth have to do with the current Islamic terrorist surge in the Phillipines? What does a "global power play" (whatever that means) have to do with the Sendero Luminoso in Peru? What do any of those three things have to do with the mess in what used to be Yugoslavia? How were any of those three things the motivating factor for the nightmare in Lebanon?
Please give us an example of a terrorist group whose stated motivation for terror is to correct the inequities of the distribution of wealth, to put an end to "global power plays", or to slow the consumption rate of the West. Any one will do. Greenpeace doesn't count.
Heck, even Osama bin Laden's oft-repeated justifications for the September 11 attack make no mention of high consumption or distribution of wealth or global power plays. His justification is that the Infidels are defiling the sacred places; i.e a RELIGIOUS motive.
It is suicidally myopic to fight terrorism with our military might...
It is axiomatic that a dead terrorist is incapable of killing more people. If the terrorist lives within the boundaries of the US, he can be handled by law enforcement agencies and the courts -- i.e Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber. If the terrorist lives outside the jurisdiction of US law enforcement, then of course the military must be involved.
Or do you think it might be better to get Jesse Jackson to persuade Osama and the boys to see the light? Presuming, of course, that:
1) Jesse would know where to find him
2) Fanatical fundamentalist infidel-hating Muslims would listen to a black American infidel.
If there is one thing history has shown, it's that rational discussion and diplomatic negotiations sometimes have no effect. If the military option is useless, what IS the answer?
Please enlighten us.
pinky
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LOBO
Vagabond
Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Phred]
#721814 - 07/04/02 02:20 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Really? What about Rome, Attila the Hun, Spain in the New World, Germany, Japan, Stalin, Pol Pot, roughly a dozen African countries, The Balkans... the list goes on.
Well most of those never claimed to be freedom lovers civilized and democrats, and non used nuclear weapons on civilian targets, and the amount of carpet bombings that we have done.
Do some research and you will be astonish how many people died in Vietnam, or even in Iraq, with all our smart bombs
In reply to:
The United States has already gone down in history as the country that saved the world. Or at least all of Europe and large parts of the Pacific. This happened around sixty years ago. Maybe you've heard of World War II?
Funny if you go to Russia, they say the exact same thing; if you go to England they say the exact same thing.
You have been watching to many movies.
All I am saying that we are no different than any other country, we are not the good guys like they made us believe we where.
Meditate on this, Imagine that instead of us, the Russian were the ones to drop the A bomb on Japan, we would still be hearing how inhuman the Russians were to have done something so atrocious like that until the end of history.
But yet we have manage to even justify this crime and made it seem like the right choice.
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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
#721833 - 07/04/02 02:57 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Where you came up with such a twisted view of history is beyond me.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Anonymous
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
#721863 - 07/04/02 04:12 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Lobo writes:
Funny if you go to Russia, they say the exact same thing; if you go to England they say the exact same thing.
Don't ask the Russians, ask the Poles, ask the Belgiums, ask the people who were liberated. My wife is from The Netherlands, I have talked to older members of her family who went through the bombing raids and German occupation. I can assure you that their perception and opinions hold that the U.S. is who saved them. They might not always agree with the current political decisions of our leadership, but they know the history that they lived through.
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Phred]
#722165 - 07/04/02 08:02 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey, I know the Irreconciable Differences thread is buried on page three, but I'd appreciate it if you'd have a look at it.
I sense in your posts a strong commitment to maintaining a black-and-white take on the world's affairs. I don't share it.
For example: "Terrorism is caused almost exclusively by tribalism and/or religion."
So, being in a tribe, or being in a religion, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, will make me want to blow other people up? No.
Another: "It is axiomatic that a dead terrorist is incapable of killing more people."
It is both axiomatic and a gross oversimplification. Your specialty. What about that terrorist's son, or daughter, or cousin? Whether they are right to react how they do to that terrorist's death is irrelevant. Obviously we need to defend our lives, and that will mean killing terrorists. But are you suggesting it's as simple as that?
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LOBO
Vagabond
Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: ]
#724090 - 07/05/02 03:23 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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My friend Evolving, I am not that crazy in not seeing that with out US. involment on WW2 we will probably having this correspondence in German, but I worked with British people and they really believe that we had a very small part in the war and that they were the ones to really win it, so who is right and who is wrong? Perhaps we will never know for sure because we were not there.
The point that I want to bring up is about indoctrination, the stories that they been telling us since kids, which in, most cases have nothing to do with the real reasons of why things happen in history.
I feel that the current system that we have now is separating us more and more with the rest of the world, not un like what happen to the roman empire.(and we all know how that ended up)
Like I stated before, I feel that we as a nation have the potential and freedom to really make this a better world, but the powers in charge just want to oppress it.
But in order to change we have to see our selves and analyze our wrong doings, so we won't commit them again, and if possible make amends, nobody likes to see it's own defects it is painful to admit them, well this works the same as with countries.
But as long as we keep complaining that every body hates us, and putting the blame on others nothing is going to change.
Did any one in this forum really ask the question why the terrorist did what they did?
And please don't give me the answer that bush gave "because the envy our freedom"
And before anyone attacks me, I don't justify what they did, all acts of violence are never justifiable.
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Anonymous
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
#724121 - 07/05/02 04:21 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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The point that I want to bring up is about indoctrination, the stories that they been telling us since kids, which in, most cases have nothing to do with the real reasons of why things happen in history.
The public school system is a great tool of indoctrination. This is why I support the seperation of school and state.
But in order to change we have to see our selves and analyze our wrong doings, so we won't commit them again, and if possible make amends...
I agree.
Did any one in this forum really ask the question why the terrorist did what they did?
And please don't give me the answer that bush gave "because the envy our freedom"
Why did they attack us? Osama Bin Laden explicity stated the reason, however this has been largely ignored by those who desire America to be an empire. We were attacked because we have not heeded the counsel of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to avoid entangling and permanent alliances. We have ignored the warnings of Dwight D. Eisenhower about the military-industrial complex. How many military outposts does America have throughout the globe? How many are necessary for the defense of America (not the defense of large corporate political doner's business interests)?
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
#724267 - 07/05/02 07:16 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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LOBO writes:
Well most of those never claimed to be freedom lovers civilized and democrats...
That wasn't your point, and that wasn't what you stated. You said:
no one in history has used more brutal force than us
That is clearly untrue.
Imagine that instead of us, the Russian were the ones to drop the A bomb on Japan...
What was important was not WHO did it, but that it ended the worst war in human history. I personally would have cheered if the Tongans had done it.
But yet we have manage to even justify this crime and made it seem like the right choice.
It is a crime in YOUR eyes, looking back on it from a safe distance of fifty seven years in the future. It is justified because Japan surrendered and withdrew it's occupation of several countries, ultimately saving the lives of potentially up to a million combatants on both sides, not to mention the non-combatants.
Read some history.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: hongomon]
#724340 - 07/05/02 08:17 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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hongomon writes:
So, being in a tribe, or being in a religion, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, will make me want to blow other people up? No.
Of course it won't. It also takes a certain mindset. But the vast majority of terrorist acts are motivated by precisely those two factors. It's factionalism, not economics, which is the driving force.
But who are the targets of the Phillipine terrorists? Those of a different religion or tribe. Who are the targets of the Middle Eastern terrorists? Those of a different religion AND tribe. Who were the targets of the Ugandan and Rwandan and Somali and Ethiopian (etc., etc., unfortunately in Africa the list is a lengthy one) terrorists? Those of a different religion or tribe. Yugoslavia? same answer. The terrorist attacks in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh? Same answer.
Did any of those targets have anything to do with YOUR three stated motives?
Nope.
I repeat, please give us a single example of a single terrorist attack where the stated motive was any one of your three reasons.
What about that terrorist's son, or daughter, or cousin?
What about them? To refrain from punishing a terrorist for fear that MAYBE one or some of his relatives MAY choose to follow in his footsteps is patently foolish.
Let's take the example of the guy who shot up the El-Al ticket counter yesterday. He was gunned down before he could kill more innocents than he already had. Should the security personnel have waited till he ran out of ammunition and then captured him, in order to prevent some of his cousins from avenging his death?
I will agree it's not ALWAYS necessary to kill them. If they can be captured and imprisoned for life THEY won't kill again. Of course, the big problem with imprisonment is that in many cases it triggers a wave of terrorist reprisals. You apparently are younger than I, so it may come as news to you that dozens, perhaps hundreds, of IRA bombings were done in order to "free the boyos". The IRA demands were that Seamus and Sean be released. The same was true of the spate of airline hijackings in the Seventies... the most common (almost universal, in fact) demand of the hijackers, WHICHEVER group was involved, was the release of this or that group of imprisoned "political martyrs" -- i.e. captured terrorists.
Whether they are right to react how they do to that terrorist's death is irrelevant.
Agreed.
Obviously we need to defend our lives...
Obviously.
...and that will mean killing terrorists.
Sadly, this is true. But it is the terrorists' actions that precipitate their deaths, not the reverse.
But are you suggesting it's as simple as that?
In some cases it IS as simple as that. It is sadly true that many in the terrorist business LIKE to kill. The stated "cause" is merely an excuse. Once their cause is reached, or withers on the vine (as happened to many of the Baader-Meinhof group once East Germany reunified with the West) those terrorists move on to a different cause. They're professional killers. It's what they DO, for pete's sake.
Is that true of ALL terrorists? Nope. But it IS true of a distressingly high percentage of them. Bin Laden is a prime example. He aided the Afghanis rebels against the Soviet occupation. Once the Soviets left, he turned to other causes, i.e. the downfall of the house of Saud and the expulsion of the Infidel from the Holy Places. My bet is that (always presuming he evades capture) if the House of Saud is overthrown and the American garrison heads home, Bin Laden will next pop up in Pakistan, engineering terrorist acts against India. Or maybe in the Phillipines.
He won't stop till he's dead, simple as that.. And there are many, MANY others just like him.
The ONLY way to stop terrorism at the root is to remove the motivation. Since we are not all one tribe or religion, that will never happen. Some Tutsis will always hate the Hottentots. Some Muslims will always hate the Jews. Some Croats will always hate the Serbs. It has been that way for centuries, and some of those people are still avenging events that happened in the year 1200 AD.
It's hard for Americans, with their instant pop culture and essential lack of roots, to grasp just how important this ancient history is to some folks; important to the point of being all-consuming. It seems unbelievable, but I assure you that these people DO think this way, and they teach their children to think the same way. There is nothing -- I repeat, NOTHING -- that America can do or refrain from doing that will change this mindset.
As an example close to home, my girlfriend is Croatian. She is a wonderful person and otherwise extremely intelligent, but she has a pathological hatred of Serbs. Her entire family drummed that hatred into her from practically the time she learned to speak, and she can recite chapter and verse every single atrocity perpetrated on her "people" by the Turks and Serbs and who knows WHO else in an unbroken line for more than a millenium. I love her, but I can't budge her on this even one little bit. I keep saying, "Sweetie, what does it MATTER? Something that happened in the eleventh century has nothing to do with YOU!" Her reply is, "I'm Croatian. It has EVERYTHING to do with me. You just can't understand."
She's right about that, I must say.
Since you can't change their motivation, the best solution I can think of (and I'm not alone in this) is to kill them. Let's face it, they have already amply demonstrated their preferred method of human interaction is murder. They have therefore voluntarily renounced their own individual rights. So be it. He who lives by the sword shall die by it.
pinky
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