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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Fighting back after 9/11
    #713194 - 06/30/02 02:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Here is a post practically guaranteed to get some heat generated. Sorry if this was posted before...I have not seen it.

I most definitely consider myself a pacifist. I appose ever war in America's history and I am anti-NRA, etc. I appose violence almost universally. I say almost because this War on Terrorism thing has got me conflicted. While I have been criticized, I tend to side with Amnesty International and think that the Government has drummed up sympathy and used it to perform a myriad of operations that have nothing to do with terrorism. But here is my question... What should the US response be to the attack? Like I said, I am a pacifist but I don't think we can kiss and make up with Osoma. I don't think he would be willing to say "Oh, ya sorry about that", and we could all move on. Further more, if he is alive he is most definitely a threat. So, my opinion is we should do our best to find him and his men and then either imprison or kill them. Now, that's not a very pacifistic view but like I said we can't just talk it out with him.

I am hoping someone changes my mind because I don't want to hurt anyone but if he continues to live than he will continue to kill, so it seems logical to me to defend ourselves. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I am all about the way Bush is handling the situation, I just am looking for a bit of self-defense.

Any comments?


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713201 - 06/30/02 02:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Two years ago, I operated a international charity,, I suggested to high level politicians, celebrities, that we invest in Afghanistan, Congo, Palestine,, with high level tech. Desaltinazition plants to produce available water, (droughts still a life death situation in these underdeveloped countries) solar power to produce power, and advanced farming technique, such that new zealand has devloped, hydroponic greenhouses. I suggest we still do the same thing.


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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713210 - 06/30/02 02:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

We should whoop his fucking ass.


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713219 - 06/30/02 02:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Terrorism is a can of worms opened by, in great part, the global power play, the grossly unbalanced distribution of wealth, and the high consumption rate of such Western societies as the U.S. Those three are interconnected.

But like you said, the can is open. So now what? I just wish we shared a sense of urgency toward resolving the above three problems as we do toward defending ourselves. It is suicidally myopic to fight terrorism with our military might, in particular when it is the one-sided effort it currently is.


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Invisibletak_old
Endo Smoke

Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 609
Loc: State of confusion
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: hongomon]
    #713332 - 06/30/02 03:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I wanna see us destroy ourselves. Or change everything. But the way we have been going is getting real boring. I need change. Maybe all you virgos who like order might disagree :P But i like change.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #713912 - 06/30/02 08:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

" I appose ever war in America's history.."
------------

If we hadn't fought the Revolutionary War, there would be no America to argue over.
This country was born of war.
Hello??

Pacifism may be a personal virtue, but if we adopt it as a national one, we won't have a nation for long.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineChubbSubb
Zen Lunatic

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 612
Loc: Here.
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Jellric]
    #713982 - 06/30/02 08:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Should we be proud to live in a country "born" from war???


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #714082 - 06/30/02 09:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I see where Jellric is coming from. And I think that's what Shroomalicious is getting at as well--where do we draw the line? Right now we are so out of balance--we're all about war. Maybe everything has a season, and if war has one, the American Revolution is a good example. But right now...

Have you guys checked out the video Eightball posted at the Political forum? I recommend it.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Jellric]
    #714436 - 06/30/02 10:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If we hadn't fought the Revolutionary War, there would be no America to argue over.

I prefer to think this nation was born out of a desire to be free. We are getting into a whole other matter here but after studying history extensively, I have concluded that the British Tyranny was laregly exagerated. It may be to easy to say this from my comfortable seat some 225 years later but it doesn't appear that the Colonials acted any better than the United Kingdom. I am not sure we did a whole lot of other things before we picked up and went the way of force, Of course, I am not saying I could have done any better at the time.

Pacifism may be a personal virtue, but if we adopt it as a national one, we won't have a nation for long.

That is the point I am trying to debate, how much should we hug our enemies before we decide its a neccessity that we fight back or else we die.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


Edited by Shroomalicious (06/30/02 10:56 PM)


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #714888 - 07/01/02 04:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

First your post belongs to the political discussion, and second violence creates more violence, you want to fight make, this a better world were people will have no need for terrorism, all powerful countries are terrorist to, they just do it in a different way but the effect is the same or worst.
This fits in to Swamis post about boundaries, for you he is a terrorist for others he is a freedom fighter, who is right?
No one is, just madness.
You say that you are a pacifist, well this is the moment to prove it, not when every thing is well and dandy, if not you are just another sheep swept by the machine.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #714918 - 07/01/02 05:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with Lobo on all counts.

Violence breeds more violence.. and this thread should be in Political Discussion..so that's where I'm moving it to.


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Offlinemrfreedom
journeyman
Male
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 80
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #715473 - 07/01/02 12:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I have posted on this numerous times on numerous sites, this war and why it is a moral action. I have also discussed, to some extent, the nature of the corruption, in our government, that will eventually turn our MORAL right to defend ourselves into an immoral war on the citizens of the U.S., as well as other nations.

As to the principle of violence, on whatever scale one wishs to choose, be that individual self defense or the greater violence of war on a national scale, violence is irrelevant in the discussion. The only moral reason for violence is SELF DEFENSE. As a godless, son of a bitch, I must confess that I don't understand nor respect a pacifist, for what purpose is pacifism? One claims to falue ALL life but that value is less than the life itself? What is your greatest gift, your life of course, and by what value system do you contend that YOUR life is NOT worth fighting for? here is a real good question. Taken to the extreme, why don't all pacifists just die by starvation, that way you can say you NEVER took a life nor committed an act of violence, not even to a plant.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #716229 - 07/01/02 06:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

First your post belongs to the political discussion

I thought what was being discussed was the philosophy of fighting back versus the philosophy of trying to repond with compassion.

and second violence creates more violence, you want to fight make, this a better world were people will have no need for terrorism, all powerful countries are terrorist to, they just do it in a different way but the effect is the same or worst. This fits in to Swamis post about boundaries, for you he is a terrorist for others he is a freedom fighter, who is right?

Friend, please don't speak for me. I don't think anything negative about Swami and I
certaintly don't think of him as a terrorist. I also TOTALLY AGREE that the UN is doing just as much Terrorism as a lot of other nations only under the titles of "Peace Keeping".

You say that you are a pacifist, well this is the moment to prove it, not when every thing is well and dandy, if not you are just another sheep swept by the machine.

What do you sugest we do then? Seriously I want an answer becuase I think we should fight back but something is telling me this is wrong...but if we don't fight back don't you think that that will just let the Terrorists do more damage than we would?

I don't even hate Osoma bin Laden, I don't condone a thing he has done but I don't hate him. However, if he runs free I think he could cause more harm than if he is allowed not to.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #716233 - 07/01/02 06:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Also, I mean fighting back but NOT the way the US is doing it. I don't agree at all with this War on Terrorism because I don't think they are doing what they are saying.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #716298 - 07/01/02 06:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

People have sacrificed their lives so that you could hold your pacifist ideas.

Conflict is an inevitable part of existence. It is noble to pursue peace, but you must be ready to fight. If you are not, then you will not survive. In order to ensure your continued existence, you must be prepared to crush your enemies if they leave you no other choice.

RandalFlagg


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Anonymous

Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #716502 - 07/01/02 08:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know who said it, but it's something to think about...

"I can see a world where this is no poverty and no war, I can also see us attacking that world because they would never expect it."


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Offlinezeronio
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: ]
    #717217 - 07/02/02 05:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts."
Bertold Brecht


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #717606 - 07/02/02 10:31 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My friend I only pointed out to read swami's post, has a relation to your question, I don't know how you took that for me implying that you hate swami.
My opinion is simple, the terrorists, Bin laden and who ever you want to include, is the best thing that happen to this government, they need a new bad guy to justify there game (soviets no more) they are not even looking for Bin laden, they want him a live to keep the threat alive.
This game is going on for a long time now is nothing new just different names, I for once am not going to fall to that game, but if you guys want to, go ahead blow the hole world up, live with hate if that's what makes you tickle, I gave up on humans a long time ago most of them are hate fool, ignorant and highly destructive.
Mark Twain use to say something like this.
"At my age I don't care if he is white, black, yellow, Christian, Muslim or Jewish, if it's human worst thing could not be"
Something like that.
My two cents


--------------------


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: LOBO]
    #717749 - 07/02/02 11:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Lobo me and you have much more in common than you think. America has always had an enemy to do things in the name of that were aweful...we share lots of opinions man.

After careful consideration and some serious meditation I have found the answer to my dilemma. It goes like this...we attack them, so they attack us (9/11), so we attack them back...so they will attack us, etc. Where does war stop? If everyone claims self defense then were does peace start? I will tell where, it starts with me. I don't condone a strick back, AND I NEVER CONDONED A BUSH LEAD STRIKE.

One opinion I don't ever see myself with is your giving up on humans. Humans have a great capacity for love and to give up on them is to lose all hope and to surrender to that, is just another form of hate, IMO. You are not exactly hateful but how is thinking the general human race as hateful not hateful itself? I think most humans just want to do what is best and we just don't agree with their tactics...deep down inside I think we all want the best for our brothers and sisters, I know I do.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Fighting back after 9/11 [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #719428 - 07/03/02 03:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My friend, in my case I do condone bush policy's, the reasons are as fallowing:
First we lately always pick on the week ones (how convenient), second we are always boosting to the world how democratic and civilize we are (but no one in history has used more brutal force than us), and third with grate power comes grate responsibility.
The reason that I feel so frustrated with us monkeys, is that I see in the case of our country that we have the potential and the resources to make this a better world ( and for a fraction of the price we are spending now), we could go down in history as the country that saved the world but the way we are going, is going to be the one that destroyed it.
And for what, for a few greedy bastards that have more than they can chew.
I put the USA as an example because it is the super power at the moment, but all the rest are the same thing if they had the power.
It is a human condition.
I believe if we don't change fast, nature will change us for good.


--------------------


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