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DMT extraction question URGENT
    #7093088 -

Okay, if a friend is going to do the extraction...would he be able to mix the lye and bark powder together right now and let it sit over night, then do the naptha in the morning?

He really appreciates your help!


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093174 -

he would want to mix the bark powder in water and add a water/lye solution to it. not just lye to bark powder. if it is powder, he can add the naphtha after a half hour. the extra time is just to penetrate chunks of bark, not necessary if one is using powder.

i hope he succeeds!


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if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me :smile:

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7093184 -

Thats what I meant chubby!

He will be adding the water/lye solution to the bark powder in a glass bowl overnight.

Will this be fine? I would think it would lead to a bigger yield for him on the first pull.

What do you think?


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093208 -

Why are you adding lye to rootbark? You realize that rootbark contains alkaloids right, not salts? Adding a base wouldnt really do anything...

If you wanted to extract the good stuff from the bark into any solution you would just have to add naphtha or an acidic aqueous solution. Starting with naphtha may pull out to0 much extra plant junk, seems like the acid solution is the way to go.

Starting with a lye solution just makes no sense whatsoever.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093213 -

Acyl said:
Why are you adding lye to rootbark? You realize that rootbark contains alkaloids right, not salts? Adding a base wouldnt really do anything...

If you wanted to extract the good stuff from the bark into any solution you would just have to add naphtha or an acidic aqueous solution. Starting with naphtha may pull out to0 much extra plant junk, seems like the acid solution is the way to go.

Starting with a lye solution just makes no sense whatsoever.


You obviously dont know what the hell you're talking about.

But thanks for the input.


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093246 -

Can you explain to me why adding lye to rootbark will help extract alkaloids then?

If anything is extracted in that first step, its because of the solubility of the DMT in water, not an alkaline solution.


An alkaloid is a neutral nitrogen substance.. the "freebase" form of a nitrogen molecule. Freebase forms are soluble in organic phases.. they arent charged species, its not as soluble in water.

If you add acid to an alkaloid it will protonate the nitrogen and create a nitrogen salt. This is a charged species, charged species as small as DMT salts arew very soluble in water.

THX though.




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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093253 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=1&Number=6931010&page=0&fpart=1

I think you misread my posts...


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093261 -

I meant to respond to chubbeys post.

Could you please elaborate on how a nitrogen base is more soluble in an aqueous solution than a nitrogen salt? Its not logical, it makes no sense.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093271 -

Quote:
Acyl said:Could you please elaborate on how a nitrogen base is more soluble in an aqueous solution than a nitrogen salt? Its not logical, it makes no sense.


Here you go professor

Can someone answer my question?

I hope you know that he just wasnt talking about lye and water. The use of naptha was already known by chubby and I. Jesus.



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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093289 -

You realize thats a tek someone posted right? Id hardly call that a source. Whatever DMT is being pulled out of the rootbark with the alkaline solution is due to the solubility of the alkaloid in water, not the basic solution.

You are only following things you've read on the internet.. It seems very obvious that you have no idea why anything would be working.

Please, logic.. not some internet tek.

If you want to have an "internet tek" battle, http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/extraction_guide1/dmt_extraction_guide1.shtml



Also

Quote:
Extraction of serotonin, bufotemin, 5-methoxytryptamine, and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine and their fluorometric determination with o-phthaldialdehyde

[EXTRAKTION VON SEROTONIN, BUFOTENIN, 5-METHOXYTRYPTAMIN UND 5-METHOXY-N,N-DIMETHYLTRYPTAMIN UND IHRE FLUORIMETRISCHE BESTIMMUNG MIT O-PHTHALDIALDEHYD]

Kitzrow, W.Show author details, Franke, L.Show author details, Uebelhack, R.Show author details, Seidel, K.Show author details Correspondence address

Nervenklin., Ber. Med., Humboldt-Univ., 1040 Berlin, Germany

Abstract

For the investigated indolamines, the recovery following extraction with n-butanol and acetic acid ethyl ester from alkaline solution amounted to 80-90%. Using benzene only the two 5-methoxyindolamines were transferred from the alkaline medium into the organic phase. The reaction of the o-phthaldialdehyde with substituted indolamines was optimized in regard to higher fluorimetric detection sensitivity. The lower limit of determination ws 2.0 ng for 5HT and 5OHDMT, and 1.0 ng for 5 MeOT and 5MeODMT.



There is no e-text full copy for it, but I think the abstract tells all... hmm..


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093292 -

Well, this..

Quote:
he would want to mix the bark powder in water and add a water/lye solution to it. not just lye to bark powder. if it is powder, he can add the naphtha after a half hour. the extra time is just to penetrate chunks of bark, not necessary if one is using powder.


Along with your post..

Made it seem like you were just adding lye/water to rootbark.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093293 -

Yeah...my intent is to not have my friend study how it works. Only to get what he came for!

Silly rabbit.




Yeah...the use of naptha was implied.


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

Edited by Chazzersize (06/26/07 12:46 AM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093300 -

Although that tek will probably yield DMT, it is not anywhere near the most efficient.

From the Merck Index... for DMT alkaloid

Quote:
Properties: Crystals, mp 44.6-46.8°; also reported as plates from ethanol and light petroleum, mp 46° (Fleming, Woolias). bp 60-80°. pKa 8.68 (ethanol-water). Freely sol in dil acetic and dil mineral acids.
Melting point: mp 44.6-46.8°; mp 46° (Fleming, Woolias)



You should start out with either just a naphtha solution or an acidic aqueous solution.. the aqueous probably being the better route.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093308 -

I appreciate your insight. My intentions and responses were never meant to be hostile. My friend is just freaking out calling me every few minutes asking if he can start it right now or wait til daylight.

I appreciate the help though. Honestly, this kid is better off sticking to the tek. He's studied it for a week now and has it down. I think he's just nervous about his first time.

:smile:


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093316 -

I was only trying to let you in on what ive spent money on to learn at school.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093319 -

i miss the hive:confused:

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093328 -

Acyl said:
I was only trying to let you in on what ive spent money on to learn at school.


And I thanked you for that. But there's always more than one way to do it. Even if it is not the BEST way, it will surely get him what he is desiring.

There is little room for him to fuck up with the tek I mentioned earlier and it's a sure fire way.

I applaud you on your chem knowledge. I could've used you a few months ago for one of my finals! :hippie:


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093335 -

:mushroom2:

Make sure he shares :smirk:


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:scrambled:

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Acyl]
    #7093350 -

You bet your ass he will.

Although I was an ass to you earlier, five shrooms to you and your wealth of knowledge on the subject of chemistry.

You should put what you told me to use in the Tek thread. Im sure you could add something to it that would help to get a cleaner final product more efficiently.

Wish him luck :sun:

It might be a dumb question...but if he were to use a glass bowl, it would be perfectly suitable...right? I think the only material NOT to use is plastic,wood or aluminum.


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7093471 -

No need to wait overnight for any reason. Water + lye. Add to bark. Shake like mad. 10 minutes, 15, an hour if you really want. Add the naptha. Shake the bejesus out of it. Wait for layers to seperate. Remove, repeat.


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #7093590 -

Ahh, Acyl. I suggest you read/research around before making those comments. The DMT contained in the dried root bark is in the form of a salt which cannot be absorbed by the solvent until a base is added with water to the powder which releases it for absorption by solvent.

Starting with an acid solution or starting with a base solution makes almost no difference, unless you plan to defat. The acid will still pull out plant gunk along with DMT, no matter whether your acidifying or basifying.

If there is no logic in basifiny the bark, then what logic is there in basifying an acidic solution further than a pH of 6 or 7?

I find that hilarious that you posted up QT's extraction Tek. That is SO outdated, the modern teks going around now have been developed from that tek, and improved greatly. The yeilds from the modern teks are much, much higher than QT's. QT calls for all these uneccesary steps, which in essence destroy alot of the DMT. You won't get anything but fatty goo if you plan on following QT's tek.

There are people out there that have been extracting DMT for decade's, and slowly been improving the tek's to increase yeild AND make them easier. Skipping the acid step and basifying straight away is proven to increase yeild. For those who acidify, basifying the end product to 13-14 is proven to increase yeild.

Acyl, if you actually have any experience with extracting DMT, I might look into what you're saying, but it sounds like you're just pulling out information from a highschool chemistry text book which has no relevance to extracting DMT from bark.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: retrospect]
    #7094060 -

My buddies bowl isnt seperation the goop from the naphtha at ALL.

Should I tell him to add more Naphtha or what?


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094188 -

Its been about two hours since he added 300 ml to the mix. Still nothing.

If anyone could help ease his mind and tell me what he did wrong, that would REALLY help me right now.


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094245 -

So are you saying you have a slurry of water+ lye + MHRB.
And you have added some naphtha to get the DMT out of there.
Now you have a thick emulsion in the naphtha / slurry that won't separate into fractions / layers.
Is this right.?

What was the PH when you put the naphtha in ?

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: UnderNose]
    #7094252 -

You are correct.

I didnt measure my ph levels. I just went by what the tek instructed me to do.


Do you think there is not enough lye? Or maybe something else?


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094281 -

You must check & re-check the Ph.

As the water absorbs things from the plant material & they react with the lye the PH level will drop.
With a low PH it is easy to get these emulsions when shaking up the naphtha, also you might not convert all actives into freebase.
IF your PH was at 12.5 you could have shaken it as much as you wanted and there would have been no sticky icky stuff.

My suggestions.
1.Slowly sprinkling table salt evenly over the solution will break up the emulsions as it contacts them.
Try this with a pinch and you will see it dissolve a little bit.
Do it bit by bit. give the naphtha layer a little stir every now & then
Don't use to much.

2.mix up a mega potent batch of lye water. carefully....
Put drops in slowly & stir solution
You need a high PH for the DMT to convert to freebase form and be collected by the naphtha.
You may also need more to react with the rest of the DMT in the MHRB

3.After you have gotten the first batch of naphtha off, test the PH and make sure it's at 12.5 for the next pull

Edited by UnderNose (06/26/07 10:46 AM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094297 -

I can't help but i just read that warm naptha will extract much better than cool naptha. Maybe you just need to wait longer if its cold


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:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094311 -

The vessel containing your solution should have been put into a warm water bath as part of the extraction.

It's true warm naphtha extracts better, holds more when warm and less when cold, this is part of the theory behind recrystallization.
But in this case there should have been fractions seen by now anyway.
Sometimes patience is needed but when done correctly the process is fast.

P.S.
Shrimp on the barbie.
Dingo ate my baby
:smile:


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Edited by UnderNose (06/26/07 10:57 AM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: UnderNose]
    #7094349 -

Thanks for the help guys. I wish you were online a few hours ago :wink:

I added a few more tablespoons of lye (I think my spoons are a little undersized) and I also added 400ml of naphtha again.

There wasnt even a layer at all, so I figured extra solvent couldnt hurt.

I'll have a cigarette and I'll will be back in about five minutes to check on it.

To get the best results, how long should I let it sit for?


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094374 -

Thats OK:thumbup:

Nah a little extra naphtha won't "hurt" but it wont really help the emulsions

How did you add the lye?
You are going to have to mix the solution a little bit.

And did you try some salt?

Let it sit until there is as close to two layers as you can get.
Then remove naphtha.


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Edited by UnderNose (06/26/07 11:14 AM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: UnderNose]
    #7094383 -

Thank you thank you.

Im also in a very cool room right now. Would it help if I let it set in the sun light for a ten minute or so to heat up a tad? This stuff is thicker than motor oil right now.


Thank you again :hippie:


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

Edited by Chazzersize (06/26/07 11:21 AM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: retrospect]
    #7094427 -

I just searched on the rootbark.

I cant find any reliable sources, but some forums claim that it is in its salted form already. http://www.thenook.org/archives/tek/yoda_dmt.shtml

However, there are plenty that go on the fact that it is in its righteous freebase alkaloid form.(http://www.thenook.org/archives/30.html) From the same website!?



So you can see why this isnt just some "stupid highschool textbook" mistake.


Well I did some searching and found this..

http://pubs.acs.org.ezproxy.lib.ucalgary.ca/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/joceah/1959/24/i09/pdf/jo01091a032.pdf

Quote:
N,N-Dimethyl-5-methoxytryptaminfer om Dictyoloma incanescens.
A 900-g. sample of the ground bark of Dictyoloma
incanescenss was extracted for 8 hr. with 3 1. of boiling petroleum
ether (b.p. 30-60") and filtered. The petroleum
ether extract was nonalkaloidal and was discarded. The
residual bark was then heated under reflux with stirring for
3 hr. with 2 1. of ethanol containing 10% aqueous ammonia.
The process was repeated twice with fresh solvent, the
periods of extraction being extended to 8 hr.





As you can see, university researchers happened to make the same dumb highschool mistake. They thought that the rootbark contained freebase alkaloids also... hmm..!

You are right, but this is not the stupid mistake youve made it out to be.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094502 -

:wtf:

Anyway.

UnderNose said:
The vessel containing your solution should have been put into a warm water bath as part of the extraction.

It's true warm naphtha extracts better, holds more when warm and less when cold, this is part of the theory behind recrystallization.



What kind of container do you have the solution in.?
Put a lid on it and put it into a warm water bath.


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: UnderNose]
    #7094517 -

It's in a 4 liter glass bowl.

I put it in hot/warm water and topped it with foil. Lets see if this works.

::crosses fingers::


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7094571 -

You could put in more lye and give a little stir maybe,
As the PH level gets higher you need larger amounts of lye to get the PH to move higher & higher.
Don't be shy..
are you able to test PH at all.?

Or try the salt thing I said before.

I can't help anymore because it's 4am here...time for sleep:boring:

Peace:grin:

Undernose


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Edited by UnderNose (06/26/07 12:16 PM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: UnderNose]
    #7094828 -

Well, the naphtha is slowly starting to rise after I realized that constantly stirring up was fucking up the process.

Im giving it an hour before I evaporate it. What do you guys think?

How thick should the layer be as well if one used a pound of root bark powder?


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7095031 -

Just a little update, I know some of you might hate seeing me post so often...I apologize.

There is a little layer FINALLY forming and im going to leave it alone for now.

Naphtha will rise on its own, correct?


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7095450 -

KEEP ADDING LYE TILL THE LAYERS SEPARATE!!! The reason they are not separating is because the pH is too low! It'd be great if you could check the pH, if not, add one tablespoon to the mixture, let it sit for 10 minutes, come back, if layers haven't separated, add another tablespoon, sit for 10 mins so on and so on till layers separate. The mixture needs to be at a pH of 13-14 and the layers can be sliced like cheese. When you pull the naptha out make sure the solution is warm, but no matter how cold or warm the solution is, the majority of the naptha should have separated within 10 minutes if the pH is right.

Acyl said:
I just searched on the rootbark.

I cant find any reliable sources, but some forums claim that it is in its salted form already. http://www.thenook.org/archives/tek/yoda_dmt.shtml

However, there are plenty that go on the fact that it is in its righteous freebase alkaloid form.(http://www.thenook.org/archives/30.html) From the same website!?



So you can see why this isnt just some "stupid highschool textbook" mistake.


Well I did some searching and found this..

http://pubs.acs.org.ezproxy.lib.ucalgary.ca/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/joceah/1959/24/i09/pdf/jo01091a032.pdf

Quote:
N,N-Dimethyl-5-methoxytryptaminfer om Dictyoloma incanescens.
A 900-g. sample of the ground bark of Dictyoloma
incanescenss was extracted for 8 hr. with 3 1. of boiling petroleum
ether (b.p. 30-60") and filtered. The petroleum
ether extract was nonalkaloidal and was discarded. The
residual bark was then heated under reflux with stirring for
3 hr. with 2 1. of ethanol containing 10% aqueous ammonia.
The process was repeated twice with fresh solvent, the
periods of extraction being extended to 8 hr.





As you can see, university researchers happened to make the same dumb highschool mistake. They thought that the rootbark contained freebase alkaloids also... hmm..!

You are right, but this is not the stupid mistake youve made it out to be.


Thank God, you actually did some research. I was not talking about the salts/alkaloids in the bark coming from a highschool textbook, nor did I ever call it a 'stupid mistake'. I was talking about the way you were saying, basifiying it would do nothing, and then going off on some nitrogen/molecule rant.

It is proven the DMT is in salt form in the bark, as people defat the bark powder with solvent before adding it to basified water. If it was in alkaloid form it would all come out in the solvent.

Edited by retrospect (06/26/07 04:01 PM)

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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: retrospect]
    #7095490 -

Yeah, I appologize.

I never usually spew facts like that without knowing for sure.. I just assumed that the alkaloids were in their usual form like they are in the grass. Bad assumption. :shrug:

Chazzersize:

Glad the naphtha started to separate, hope it works out for the best.



To everyone else... this solution seems like it could have been solved by heating the mixture a bit to ensure total extraction of the alkaloids then filtering the naphtha/lye/bark solution to remove the bark gunk. The good shit will be in solution and the bark wont be there to prevent the naphtha/water layers from separating.. Theres no use for the bark after the alkaloids have been pulled.. so this seems like a very reasonable thing to do..

What do you guys think?


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Re: DMT extraction question URGENT [Re: Chazzersize]
    #7098124 -

THANK you for all the generous help guys.

It turns out my problem was that I the ph STILL wasnt high enough after 300 grams of lye. I had to put in around 500 total...then seperate the mix into two smaller bowls and I worked from there.

I cant even begin to tell you all the things I saw and felt.

:hippie:

Im a believer.


PS Now that I got the to experience it first hand, the next batch will probably be the CFC method. Wish us luck :smile:

Again, thank you.


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Take off my mask and leave the lies to the liars.

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