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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling?
#7071048 - 06/20/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Um...yeah. Which global calamity are we on this year?
Quote:
Read the sunspots The mud at the bottom of B.C. fjords reveals that solar output drives climate change - and that we should prepare now for dangerous global cooling
R. TIMOTHY PATTERSON, Financial Post Published: Wednesday, June 20, 2007
Politicians and environmentalists these days convey the impression that climate-change research is an exceptionally dull field with little left to discover. We are assured by everyone from David Suzuki to Al Gore to Prime Minister Stephen Harper that "the science is settled." At the recent G8 summit, German Chancellor Angela Merkel even attempted to convince world leaders to play God by restricting carbon-dioxide emissions to a level that would magically limit the rise in world temperatures to 2C.
...
Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
#7071143 - 06/20/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I will agree that the current "greening" trend that is widely publicized is a little overblown..... but what I dont get from the republicans is where is the conspiracy coming from? how is this enormous liberal group gaining anything from this "delusion"?
I can see where Al Gore makes political gains from it, and I can see where certain car companies make money from it... but it kind of stops there. Where are the gains to be made from the plethora of scientists that are claiming that global warming is spiraling out of control? what do the hippies have to gain from spending time, money and energy to raise awareness?
I think to say that it is an imminent problem plaguing the world is overdoing it, but so is claiming that there is some liberal conspiracy without citing any motive whatsoever. Find some middle ground.... and would it hurt for us to atleast try and be globally aware that we do have somewhat of an impact on the climate of the world?
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Astral Piper
Voivod
Registered: 05/02/07
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7071362 - 06/20/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is no credible scientific evidence that human activity has had any effect on climactic change whatsoever. Yet various pundits, politicians, media and celebrity personalities have pronounced this as "established science" and beyond debate.
THAT is the problem.
I realize that people see churning smoke erupting from trucks and buses, or pictures of stagnant air enveloping entire cities in China, and they extrapolate that to mean the demise of all life as we know it.
Yet there is no evidence to support this at all.
But, as in the aforementioned article from the Financial Times, various governmental agencies and NGOs are demanding the reallocation of resources to address a "problem." People are being told that their lifestyles are complicit in killing the environment, and that to ignore calls for radically modifying the entire economies of the nations which comprise the modern industrialized is bordering on criminal collusion. Absolute nonsense.
The standard of living we have in the modern world today is directly tied to the modern market economies of the powerhouses of our globe - namely The United States and several large nations in Europe. That standard of living has extended human lifespan while at the same time increasing the quality of our lives UNIVERSALLY - both in the modern industrialized world and in those nations still in the developmental stages of their respective economies.
One radical environmentalist in the 1960s declared that anecdotal evidence showed that DDT was responsible for numerous birth defects and genetic damage. This message was celebrated by a sympathetic media and gained momentum, leading to eventual legislation that banned the production and use of one of the most effective weapons in the fight against mosquitoes (and the malarial disease they transmit) - subsequently, MILLIONS of lives in Africa have been lost to that nefarious disease when they could possibly have been saved.
This is the result of people's inability to see beyond their own political predilections, and their desire to pronounce scientific proofs without the benefit of actual hard empirical evidence.
So while you are trying to find "middle ground" in an area that is being propounded ceaselessly by a complicit media, some of us refuse to acknowledge the pseudo-science and mindless nonsense spouting from the peanut gallery.
The real root of this problem is ignorance. So many people today who believe they are educated really display the same proclivity for repeating slogans and neologisms that are based in their own fantasies simply because these "fit" with their preconceptions.
Many people seem to have reached a point where their "book learning" has far exceeded their ability to think critically.
-------------------- Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:
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EllisDSox
King Hella!
Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
#7071391 - 06/20/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
At the recent G8 summit, German Chancellor Angela Merkel even attempted to convince world leaders to play God by restricting carbon-dioxide emissions to a level that would magically limit the rise in world temperatures to 2C.
Hahahahahaha. I love the use of the term "play God" here. Clearly, only imbeciles and abominations would do something so dastardly as try and prevent drastic changes in climate destroying humanity. I consider global warming a test. If we're intelligent enough, as a species, to alter our way of life sufficiently that global warming doesn't destroy us, we pass the test. If we don't, we all die. Hooray!
-------------------- Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.
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Astral Piper
Voivod
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7071396 - 06/20/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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This link leads to the complete text of the article:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4
Perhaps someone out there who actually cares about this issue enough to investigate further will be motivated to open their eyes to real scientific efforts to answer questions about global climactic change, instead of reminding everybody that village in Texas is missing it's idiot.
-------------------- Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7071467 - 06/20/07 07:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I beg to differ that there is credible scientific data that shows humans have an impact upon the earths climate. I do not currently have the time to go find articles, though I will when I get home, because they are aplenty....
As far as DDT goes, i witnessed the decline of the brown pelican population firsthand, as well as their comeback over the years since DDT was taken from use. now, Im not saying that lack of brown pelicans = DDT's fault.... directly..... but it is considered a moderately toic chemical which isnt soluble in water, and was so widely used that it had to have some adverse effect upon the ecology, even the slightest disruption in the amount of mosquitos which affects the spiders and frog population, which in turn affects another species and up and up until biological magnification of toxins starts to affect bigger species in greater quantities. As far as malaria goes... well, I think human evolution, like sickle cell anemia took up a lot of slack. Was our goal to wipe out all mosquitos? if so that is ridiculously short-sighted as a solution to a problem. Killing of a majority of mosquitos in africa isnt going to stop malaria... all it takes is just one mosquito to transmit it.... and it isnt like malaria is some great catasrophic epidemic that has caused the tribal nations of africa to remain an underdeveloped continent.
Im not up to current medical trends, but since the banning of DDT, hasnt the rate of thalidomide stricken infants decreased to almost nothing? and during that time, the rate of those babies rose so quickly that it could not be contributed to a freak genetic occurence?
once again, I ask you where is the motive? where is the financial gain? where is this huge campaign of misinformation stemming from? who is to gain from all this conspiracy to go "green"? because I can easily find the motive of large corporations and chemical manufacturers to disuade the public and make such harsh, unbacked statements such as yours regarding psuedo-science and whatnot. This is my point: I can see the motives behind the republicans and anti-green people... but I cannot see the motives behind the entire "pro-green" group.
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leftandright
space stunt man
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7071519 - 06/20/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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people freak the fuck out over our weather. Its as good pretty much as it can get.look at the history of weather that earther has had for the last couple of billion years. we are lucky but hot yes.
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InsolentPrude
dark-helmetedknight
Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1,228
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: leftandright]
#7071541 - 06/20/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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The basic idea of the year is based on who produced the best documentary of our doom that year and running with it. Awhile back it was El Nino and La Nina, Then it was guns and fast food, then it was terrorists, then global warming, then a new ice age, then a meteor... what's next?
I was watching a documentary last night, they basically stated that they have pinpointed where planet Earth is on it's ultimate time-line, and that in 5-billion years, Earth's orbit will have completely degraded and it will go catapulting into the Sun?!?!
-------------------- "You know what they say: if God had been a Liberal, we wouldn't have had the ten commandments. We'd have had the ten suggestions."
Edited by xxetniesxx (06/20/07 08:01 PM)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: InsolentPrude]
#7071557 - 06/20/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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a good point to make about every single one of the things you cited is that they all did have some affect upon us at one time. Now, how sensationalized it was is up for debate, but to say it as if these things were invented out of the blue is laughable. yes, there is terrorism, and yes it has/is/will affect us, but is it the huge worldwide scare the media propses? probably not... this is what I mean by finding middle ground. To say that global warming is a figment of peoples minds is ludicrous, but to say that by the year 2020 we will be burning to death in a world covered by 98% water is ludicrous as well.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: InsolentPrude]
#7071562 - 06/20/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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In 5 billion year our Sun will go nova.....and what's happening to the Earth's orbit won't matter much at all
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
#7071614 - 06/20/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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well, looking at anything in such a macroscopic way makes anything not matter at all. in 5 million years, it wont matter who got murdered today... so lets just legalize murder.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7071751 - 06/20/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's the most insane thing I've heard all day
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Astral Piper
Voivod
Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Hell
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7071782 - 06/20/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: I beg to differ that there is credible scientific data that shows humans have an impact upon the earths climate. I do not currently have the time to go find articles, though I will when I get home, because they are aplenty....
Produce them please. Credible scientific data may mean different things to different people, but if your sources contain references to actual published studies that have been peer-reviewed and critically analyzed, then you definitely do have evidence. I am anxious to see this.
Quote:
psilocyberin said: As far as DDT goes, i witnessed the decline of the brown pelican population firsthand, as well as their comeback over the years since DDT was taken from use. now, Im not saying that lack of brown pelicans = DDT's fault.... directly..... but it is considered a moderately toic chemical which isnt soluble in water, and was so widely used that it had to have some adverse effect upon the ecology, even the slightest disruption in the amount of mosquitos which affects the spiders and frog population, which in turn affects another species and up and up until biological magnification of toxins starts to affect bigger species in greater quantities. As far as malaria goes... well, I think human evolution, like sickle cell anemia took up a lot of slack. Was our goal to wipe out all mosquitos? if so that is ridiculously short-sighted as a solution to a problem. Killing of a majority of mosquitos in africa isnt going to stop malaria... all it takes is just one mosquito to transmit it.... and it isnt like malaria is some great catasrophic epidemic that has caused the tribal nations of africa to remain an underdeveloped continent.
Of course the inappropriate use of massive quantities of DDT, or other hard pesticides (like endrin) will have deleterious effects on the ecosystem. So will pulp produced at paper mills, degreasing agents used in the manufacture of engine components for Toyota Priuses, and the gas coming out of your ass after you eat at Taco Bell.
The pelican population dwindled because the shells of their eggs grew thin in those areas that saw significant run-off of DDT pesticides in California (and endrin in Louisiana.) However, the application of this beneficial substance was never debated (remember, the Swiss chemist who discovered DDT won a Nobel Prize for his efforts) but rather it was banned entirely.
If you are seriously doubting the effects of the mosquito problem in Africa, then you need to do some research. I have lived in Africa (both northern and sub-Saharan) so rather than belabor the point to you, please learn more about this issue on your own. I know firsthand about the problems this insect has caused, and if you are keen to live by an infested body of standing water, then be my guest.
Quote:
psilocyberin said: Im not up to current medical trends, but since the banning of DDT, hasnt the rate of thalidomide stricken infants decreased to almost nothing? and during that time, the rate of those babies rose so quickly that it could not be contributed to a freak genetic occurence?
No. Thalidomide babies were born with birth defects because their mothers were prescribed a standard sedative called... thalidomide. This has no bearing on any discussion of DDT or climactic change.
Quote:
psilocyberin said: once again, I ask you where is the motive? where is the financial gain? where is this huge campaign of misinformation stemming from? who is to gain from all this conspiracy to go "green"? because I can easily find the motive of large corporations and chemical manufacturers to disuade the public and make such harsh, unbacked statements such as yours regarding psuedo-science and whatnot. This is my point: I can see the motives behind the republicans and anti-green people... but I cannot see the motives behind the entire "pro-green" group.
My statements are not "unbacked" unlike the ad hominem nonsense you are perpetuating.
Political posturing is nothing new, and attempting to swing the discussion by referencing unconnected issues under the broad canopy of questioning whether there is a "conspiracy" tells me that you are intellectually bankrupt (at least in this issue, and in the context of this discussion.)
My point was not to attempt to defend or rationalize a perception of collusion by groups bent on proselytizing a series of unproven assumptions about mankind's impact on global climactic change, but rather point out that the real problem is evidenced by a lack of logical arguments endemic to people such as yourself.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.
-------------------- Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7071809 - 06/20/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Im thinking Godwin's Law at any moment
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InsolentPrude
dark-helmetedknight
Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1,228
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7071823 - 06/20/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Astral Piper said: My statements are not "unbacked" unlike the ad hominem nonsense you are perpetuating.
Political posturing is nothing new, and attempting to swing the discussion by referencing unconnected issues under the broad canopy of questioning whether there is a "conspiracy" tells me that you are intellectually bankrupt
Although i'm more ataraxic about the whole deal... nice call out
-------------------- "You know what they say: if God had been a Liberal, we wouldn't have had the ten commandments. We'd have had the ten suggestions."
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Astral Piper
Voivod
Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: DieCommie]
#7071867 - 06/20/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Im thinking Godwin's Law at any moment
Nice reference!! I'm sure I'll be accused of being a Brownshirt in short order!
-------------------- Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7071930 - 06/20/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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dont have much time to respond, I will probably leter tonight... but yeah, big fuck up on my part with the thalidomide... dont know why those got tied together in my head.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7072072 - 06/20/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Political posturing is nothing new, and attempting to swing the discussion by referencing unconnected issues
am i the one that brought up DDT and the medical advances of recently industrialized nations? I was discussing global warming before you brought up these side issues.
Thalidomide was just a huge debating blunder on my part, and was not really meant to be some sidetrack topic. So I apologize for that, but lets not try to act like I brought up this "conspiracy" idea to out maneuver you in debating.... I brought it up before you were even in this conversation.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: InsolentPrude]
#7072458 - 06/20/07 10:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xxetniesxx said: The basic idea of the year is based on who produced the best documentary of our doom that year and running with it. Awhile back it was El Nino and La Nina, Then it was guns and fast food, then it was terrorists, then global warming, then a new ice age, then a meteor... what's next?
Our solar system is traveling in a direction different from that of the milky way. Some claim that the heliosphere is currently or will soon be running into a rough patch of magnetized strips and striations containing hydrogen, helium, hydroxyl, and other elements. There is also differing solar wind and galatic radiation that our solar system will encouncer. This could cause the sun to exhibit eratic behavior and distress the earth'd magnetic field.
Shit, maybe it'll be so bad that the world will actually end or some other crazyness in 2012. The Mayans could have been right...
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: d33p]
#7073124 - 06/21/07 01:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Produce them please. Credible scientific data may mean different things to different people, but if your sources contain references to actual published studies that have been peer-reviewed and critically analyzed, then you definitely do have evidence. I am anxious to see this.
ok..... here is an article that summarizes the general consensus of the scientific community based on peer-reviewed articles.
Quote:
Policy-makers and the media, particularly in the United States, frequently assert that climate science is highly uncertain. Some have used this as an argument against adopting strong measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. For example, while discussing a major U.S. Environmental Protection Agency report on the risks of climate change, then-EPA administrator Christine Whitman argued, "As [the report] went through review, there was less consensus on the science and conclusions on climate change" (1). Some corporations whose revenues might be adversely affected by controls on carbon dioxide emissions have also alleged major uncertainties in the science (2). Such statements suggest that there might be substantive disagreement in the scientific community about the reality of anthropogenic climate change. This is not the case.
The scientific consensus is clearly expressed in the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Created in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environmental Programme, IPCC's purpose is to evaluate the state of climate science as a basis for informed policy action, primarily on the basis of peer-reviewed and published scientific literature (3). In its most recent assessment, IPCC states unequivocally that the consensus of scientific opinion is that Earth's climate is being affected by human activities: "Human activities ... are modifying the concentration of atmospheric constituents ... that absorb or scatter radiant energy. ... [M]ost of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations" [p. 21 in (4)].
IPCC is not alone in its conclusions. In recent years, all major scientific bodies in the United States whose members' expertise bears directly on the matter have issued similar statements. For example, the National Academy of Sciences report, Climate Change Science: An Analysis of Some Key Questions, begins: "Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise" [p. 1 in (5)]. The report explicitly asks whether the IPCC assessment is a fair summary of professional scientific thinking, and answers yes: "The IPCC's conclusion that most of the observed warming of the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations accurately reflects the current thinking of the scientific community on this issue" [p. 3 in (5)].
Others agree. The American Meteorological Society (6), the American Geophysical Union (7), and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) all have issued statements in recent years concluding that the evidence for human modification of climate is compelling (8).
but what do all these pseudo-scientists and their lengthy credentials know... right? Us logical and smart people know better, and refuse to accept any of this data.... right?
but here is some "middle-ground" reporting, which is the second half of this report.
Quote:
The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions. That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).
The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.
Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point.
This analysis shows that scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect.
The scientific consensus might, of course, be wrong. If the history of science teaches anything, it is humility, and no one can be faulted for failing to act on what is not known. But our grandchildren will surely blame us if they find that we understood the reality of anthropogenic climate change and failed to do anything about it.
Many details about climate interactions are not well understood, and there are ample grounds for continued research to provide a better basis for understanding climate dynamics. The question of what to do about climate change is also still open. But there is a scientific consensus on the reality of anthropogenic climate change. Climate scientists have repeatedly tried to make this clear. It is time for the rest of us to listen.
Now, i agree that the scientific community is fallible, but to discredit an overwhelming concensus with the statement "humans do have an impact on the earths climate via greenhouse gases" cannot be just dismissed as "pseudo-science".
Quote:
If you are seriously doubting the effects of the mosquito problem in Africa, then you need to do some research. I have lived in Africa (both northern and sub-Saharan) so rather than belabor the point to you, please learn more about this issue on your own. I know firsthand about the problems this insect has caused, and if you are keen to live by an infested body of standing water, then be my guest.
now who is side-tracking? granted, your firsthand experience of Africa outstrides my knowledge of it, even though my uncle contracted Malaria from nigeria.... but how about distributing quanine? how about instead of putting more money into buying dubious chemicals, why not spend that money on different ways of combating the mosquito problem? Also, what does DDt have to do with global warming at all? are we going to bring the Aswan dam into this as well?
also, where is my debating posturing? where is my ad hominem? if anyone is slinging ad hominems, it is you. get a dictionary and check your posts...bub.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686
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mr_kite
The Watcher
Registered: 09/16/02
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Loc: shambhala
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7073467 - 06/21/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Astral Piper said: There is no credible scientific evidence that human activity has had any effect on climactic change whatsoever. Yet various pundits, politicians, media and celebrity personalities have pronounced this as "established science" and beyond debate.
THAT is the problem.
I realize that people see churning smoke erupting from trucks and buses, or pictures of stagnant air enveloping entire cities in China, and they extrapolate that to mean the demise of all life as we know it.
Yet there is no evidence to support this at all.
But, as in the aforementioned article from the Financial Times, various governmental agencies and NGOs are demanding the reallocation of resources to address a "problem." People are being told that their lifestyles are complicit in killing the environment, and that to ignore calls for radically modifying the entire economies of the nations which comprise the modern industrialized is bordering on criminal collusion. Absolute nonsense.
The standard of living we have in the modern world today is directly tied to the modern market economies of the powerhouses of our globe - namely The United States and several large nations in Europe. That standard of living has extended human lifespan while at the same time increasing the quality of our lives UNIVERSALLY - both in the modern industrialized world and in those nations still in the developmental stages of their respective economies.
One radical environmentalist in the 1960s declared that anecdotal evidence showed that DDT was responsible for numerous birth defects and genetic damage. This message was celebrated by a sympathetic media and gained momentum, leading to eventual legislation that banned the production and use of one of the most effective weapons in the fight against mosquitoes (and the malarial disease they transmit) - subsequently, MILLIONS of lives in Africa have been lost to that nefarious disease when they could possibly have been saved.
This is the result of people's inability to see beyond their own political predilections, and their desire to pronounce scientific proofs without the benefit of actual hard empirical evidence.
So while you are trying to find "middle ground" in an area that is being propounded ceaselessly by a complicit media, some of us refuse to acknowledge the pseudo-science and mindless nonsense spouting from the peanut gallery.
The real root of this problem is ignorance. So many people today who believe they are educated really display the same proclivity for repeating slogans and neologisms that are based in their own fantasies simply because these "fit" with their preconceptions.
Many people seem to have reached a point where their "book learning" has far exceeded their ability to think critically.
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea. In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." Robert Anton Wilson
Sometimes you dont need absolute conclusive evidence to backup common sense. I fail to understand people who get bogged down in all the spin and dont just acknowledge the fact that there is a large (not definite) possibility that our planet is heating up largely due to human behaviour. And is the old addage that prevention is better than cure not fairly sensible?
I have in front of me a newspaper article from a month ago I cut out and kept. It's all about logging. This is not entirely relevant to the debate here but I think itll be of interest to everyone. It certainly shocked me. And in a way I think it is very relevant as it shows how the rape of our planet's natural habitats causes far more damage than other human behaviour such as transport and industry.
"In the next 24 hours, deforestation will release as much CO2 into the atmosphere as 8 million people flying from London to New York." If logging continues as it is now for the next four years, there will be pumped in those four years alone "more CO2 into the atmosphere than every flight in the history of aviation to at least 2025". The rainforests form a precious cooling band around the equator, and they contain 50% of life on earth yet cover an area of only 7% of the planet's surface. Every year an area the size of the UK is destroyed.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: mr_kite]
#7082831 - 06/23/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's simple enough. The scaremongering is to condition people that further development and use of coal, oil and gas power stations is evil. This means that third world and developing nations will be kept impoverished, so their little exploited resources can be mined more cheaply.
Global warming has become a campaign to keep poor countries poor so we can live in cheap luxury. No one dares advertise the fact that climate on all planets in the solar system is heating up! We're warmer today because the sun is more active. We can no more change that than make water run uphill.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7082843 - 06/23/07 07:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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However, why is CO2 being touted as the most evil pollutant which we must all fear? CFC's I can understand due to their affects upon the Ozone layer, but why is there no mainstream media attention diverted to sulfur dioxide? This is a far worse pollutant. Whereas CO2 is a benefit to plants, sulfur dioxide is converted easily into sulfuric acid which damages anything it precipitates upon.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7597974 - 11/05/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: It's simple enough. The scaremongering is to condition people that further development and use of coal, oil and gas power stations is evil. This means that third world and developing nations will be kept impoverished, so their little exploited resources can be mined more cheaply.
Global warming has become a campaign to keep poor countries poor so we can live in cheap luxury. No one dares advertise the fact that climate on all planets in the solar system is heating up! We're warmer today because the sun is more active. We can no more change that than make water run uphill.
Woo! My first post *hugs it*
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pong
kretan
Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 4,311
Loc: west coast
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: mr_kite]
#7597990 - 11/05/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said: The rainforests form a precious cooling band around the equator, and they contain 50% of life on earth yet cover an area of only 7% of the planet's surface. Every year an area the size of the UK is destroyed.
i doubt that it contains 50% of life. maybe 50% of species of life.
but the ocean IMO has way more than 50% of the worlds life.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: pong]
#7598137 - 11/05/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.nature.org/rainforests/explore/facts.html
Quote:
Fact: Covering less than 2 percent of the Earth's total surface area, the world's rainforests are home to 50 percent of the Earth's plants and animals.
They probably mean 50% of land animals and plants. I can see that.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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rexmundi
Stranger
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: pong]
#7598139 - 11/05/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Saying that modern market economies and human activity has increased the standard of living universally and had no negative impact on the planet is utter nonsense. The rest is just detail, like Ockham, we must recognize bullshit for what it is.
-------------------- "I Love Democracy" -Emporer Palpatine Fuck the system.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: rexmundi]
#7598334 - 11/05/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rexmundi said: Saying that modern market economies and human activity has increased the standard of living universally and had no negative impact on the planet is utter nonsense. The rest is just detail, like Ockham, we must recognize bullshit for what it is.
I'm pretty sure it's worse for the Africans and the Chinese since industrialisation has led to constant wars and suffering in one case, and complete state control in the other.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7599878 - 11/05/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually, the huge drop in global poverty that has occurred in the last 30 years or so can be predominantly explained by China.
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aDoS
freedom lover
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Posts: 7,590
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
#7599899 - 11/05/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Honestly I think global warming is bullshit. The world has cycles...it gets warm, it gets cold. I remember in Al Gore's movie (btw he made a huge profit off of, over 7 figures) he said something similar to "global warming causes drought, but some people go why is it raining more this year, well because global warming can also cause it to rain more" Like wtf is that? That totally contradicts itself. That is called weather.
-------------------- "If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: aDoS]
#7599931 - 11/05/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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My boss the other day was remarking about how global warming has been causing all these hurricanes. wtf? What hurricanes? Even if there was some global hurricane outbreak, it certainly cant be attributed to global warming at this point. The term 'butterfly effect' comes from trying to predict the weather. Sad thing is my boss works at a place for science and math students
He also likes Al Gore's film as well as "What the bleep do we know?" so I pretty much dismiss anything he says.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: DieCommie]
#7600043 - 11/05/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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As I understand it, the effect of global warming on hurricanes will not be more of them, but rather an increase in intensity. From what I've heard, this has been the observed effect so far. As far as I can tell, the data overwhelmingly supports the fact that the Earth's climate is getting warmer, and we are seeing very alarming results from that.
The human contribution to this warming is certainly a matter of debate, but as I've come to understand it, the majority of climate scientists do believe that the human contribution is significant. Perhaps the media hypes the degree of agreement, or the predicted effects, but if 6 doctors tell me I'm sick and 4 tell me I'm not, I'm going to listen to those 6, because I have more to lose by not listening to them.
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ApJunkie
part-time Ninja
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
#7600206 - 11/05/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What I don't understand is all these people who get so worked up over the possibility that Global Warming is just a hoax. Even if it is, who gives a fuck? Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet? We're not the only animals here you know.
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Kamin
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: ApJunkie]
#7600947 - 11/05/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The predictions for global warming are supposed to be like...a tenth of a degree per decade or something minute like that. I find it hard to believe that somehow, even though the earth has been around for billions of years, that people believe evidence from such a small fraction of the worlds history, could be used to claim such predictions. That is like me going and interviewing a single person on their beliefs, and claiming that it is a valid sample of the rest of the earth's population. On the other hand, there is no harm in trying to cause less pollution and advancing technology to rely less on oil and coal etc. But the current 'crisis' mode that is going on now is overboard.
Wow, what a revival.
Edited by Kamin (11/05/07 11:16 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Kamin]
#7600993 - 11/05/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kamin said: The predictions for global warming are supposed to be like...a tenth of a degree per decade or something minute like that. I find it hard to believe that somehow, even though the earth has been around for billions of years, that people believe evidence from such a small fraction of the worlds history, could be used to claim such predictions. That is like me going and interviewing a single person on their beliefs, and claiming that it is a valid sample of the rest of the earth's population.
Based on arctic ice samples and geological data, we actually have a good idea of earth's climate history going back long before humans existed.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: DieCommie]
#7600997 - 11/05/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its global who keeps fucking with the thermostat.
-------------------- Asshole
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7601096 - 11/05/07 11:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Apparently the last survey of scientific opinion on this subject was in 2004:
Quote:
A 2004 article by geologist and historian of science Naomi Oreskes summarized a study of the scientific literature on climate change.[29] The essay concluded that there is a scientific consensus on the reality of anthropogenic climate change. The author analyzed 928 abstracts of papers from refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, listed with the keywords "global climate change". Oreskes divided the abstracts into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. 75% of the abstracts were placed in the first three categories, thus either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, thus taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change; none of the abstracts disagreed with the consensus position, which the author found to be "remarkable". According to the report, "authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Surveys_of_scientists_and_scientific_literature
I realize there are scientists who disagree with the majority opinion, but where's the beef? Peer-reviewed scientific journal articles are essential for widespread scientific acceptance. If anthropogenic global warming is all hype, then haven't the skeptics stepped up to the plate where it counts? Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
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Posts: 2,782
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Kamin]
#7601234 - 11/06/07 01:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kamin said: The predictions for global warming are supposed to be like...a tenth of a degree per decade or something minute like that. I find it hard to believe that somehow, even though the earth has been around for billions of years, that people believe evidence from such a small fraction of the worlds history, could be used to claim such predictions. That is like me going and interviewing a single person on their beliefs, and claiming that it is a valid sample of the rest of the earth's population. On the other hand, there is no harm in trying to cause less pollution and advancing technology to rely less on oil and coal etc. But the current 'crisis' mode that is going on now is overboard.
Wow, what a revival.
Apparently, by the number of SUVs I see on the road every day, it's not much of a crisis. Perhaps we should be MORE alarmed?
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: kake]
#7601244 - 11/06/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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blah blah blah, there is no conclusive evidence one way or teh other humans are warming the globe or not warming the globe, and there won't be for another x amount of years, eons and shit to accurately compile piles of statistical data that can then be used to correlate humans and their contraptions and the escalation of global temps. blah blah blah, blah blah blah.
-------------------- Asshole
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: ApJunkie]
#7601421 - 11/06/07 05:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ApJunkie said: What I don't understand is all these people who get so worked up over the possibility that Global Warming is just a hoax. Even if it is, who gives a fuck? Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet? We're not the only animals here you know.
I know the climate is getting warmer, this is not hard to find out. What I object to is moves to ban incandescent light bulbs (which are safer when working with bandsaws/drills/lathes.) and forcing people to buy CFL lightbulbs, whilst ignoring LED's altogether. What I object to is other countries preventing India and African countries from making their own coal or gas power stations "because they're polluting." thus keeping them in pre industrialised poverty. What I object to is our government saying buying too much food is making the world warmer.
Fucking hell, stuff like that is a drop in the ocean in terms of climate change, and will do nothing to change current patterns. But it's a really, nasty way of telling people how to live, how to act and how to think. Normally any of the above mentioned items would have difficulty being reality. But now you add the all new and amazing religion of climate change and suddenly it's okay to have enforced abortions, "climate tax", less food, less safety and even more surveillance.
PS: For what it's worth, I weave daises into my long hair, I have a 12 string guitar, and psychedelics are my favourite chemicals short of sugar.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
#7601435 - 11/06/07 05:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?
Yes, unfortunately. There is very little funding available for people that are doing research that contradicts "global warming". Scientists loose their jobs for stating their opinion on "global warming" being false. Anti-global-warming scientists have been prevented from presenting or attending global warming oriented symposiums. The list goes on and on. The pressure on science to be "pro-global-warming" is so great that data has been falsified to support the global warming crowd.
Please note, that I consider "global warming" to be different than climate change. I have no doubt that the climate is a dynamic system and that it is currently undergoing a warming trend. I view the "global warming" crowd as ecoterrorists, trying to scare people into change.
> Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet?
Yes, absolutely. We have people going nuts trying to save glaciers and the like. By trying to fix a problem that may not be a problem, we can actually create a worse mess than dynamic climate change will create on its own. One cannot beat mother nature; we have to adapt. I find it very frightening that we are trying to fix a problem that we do not fully understand.
At the same time I have no problem with people trying to be more conservative. There is nothing wrong with this... but we should do it because we know it is the right thing to do, not because some shmuck decided to create a movie with made up science and scare us with the big bad global warming monster.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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BrAiN
Art Fag
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
#7601512 - 11/06/07 07:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Global cooling?
SHIT!
Quick.. we're going to need to up our carbon emissions and start driving hummers to deplete the ozone to counteract it!
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: BrAiN]
#7601609 - 11/06/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The anti-global warming movement is, to me, similar to the "government caused 9-11" conspiracy. I'm not an expert on either subject, but instinct tells me that global warming is real, just like i really don't think bush caused 9-11. There's just no fucking way we can be doing all this shit to the earth...and not hurting our enviroment.
(I say our enviroment because, as George Carlin said, global warming doesn't really hurt the earth, it hurts our ability to live on the earth. The earth will be fine. We won't.)
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
#7601625 - 11/06/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?
Yes, unfortunately. There is very little funding available for people that are doing research that contradicts "global warming". Scientists loose their jobs for stating their opinion on "global warming" being false. Anti-global-warming scientists have been prevented from presenting or attending global warming oriented symposiums. The list goes on and on. The pressure on science to be "pro-global-warming" is so great that data has been falsified to support the global warming crowd.
If what you say is true, it makes me wonder what other kind of inquisitory dogmas are enforced in the scientific community.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
#7601640 - 11/06/07 08:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If what you say is true, it makes me wonder what other kind of inquisitory dogmas are enforced in the scientific community.
I wouldn't say that this is a case of enforcement within "the scientific community" so much as it is the result of political motivations restricting the scientific community.
Unfortunately a great deal of funding for basic research comes from political organizations.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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ApJunkie
part-time Ninja
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
#7601677 - 11/06/07 08:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, I can agree with you there, but unfortunately think it may be necessary. Most people in the world are far too stupid to understand the potential consequences of letting our population balloon to 9 or 10 billion people although I won't say any names (you know who you are, Texans).
Quote:
yes, absolutely. We have people going nuts trying to save glaciers and the like. By trying to fix a problem that may not be a problem, we can actually create a worse mess than dynamic climate change will create on its own. One cannot beat mother nature; we have to adapt.
I agree with you completely. Some of the things I see people worried about are spectacularly stupid, such as the melting glaciers. But even though most people only really want to save the glaciers because they're pretty, much of the science being published about climate change really do present promising points. What about Water conservation? you know we can't just keep on with our water usage as we have been without finding some solution to reclaim it, or desalinize ocean water cheaply.
Visionary tools; Don't you think sometimes it might be necessary to tell people how to act? Nobody would ever make an effort to stop overpopulation, because sex feels better than... well, anything. Don't you think it's necessary for us to put some kind of mild restriction in place to prevent catholics from cranking out 15 kids and ruining the planet?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
#7601786 - 11/06/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet?
Yes, absolutely. We have people going nuts trying to save glaciers and the like. By trying to fix a problem that may not be a problem, we can actually create a worse mess than dynamic climate change will create on its own. One cannot beat mother nature; we have to adapt. I find it very frightening that we are trying to fix a problem that we do not fully understand.
Have you noticed that almost all attempts at "fixing" the problem are simply geared towards having less of an impact? There are some "last resort" solutions that have offered which would actually cool the planet while we regroup, but most solutions offered involve reducing carbon emissions, and quite frankly, I can't see the harm in that. It's not trying to fuck with Mother Nature. It's trying to stop fucking with her.
Quote:
At the same time I have no problem with people trying to be more conservative. There is nothing wrong with this... but we should do it because we know it is the right thing to do, not because some shmuck decided to create a movie with made up science and scare us with the big bad global warming monster.
Made up science? You mean the science that has dominated scientific journals? As I indicated earlier, I'm willing to accept the possibility that global warming skeptics have been unfairly blackballed from scientific journals(though it was my impression that it was their fellow scientists who determined what content got published in them), but Al Gore is clearly citing the mainstream scientific community. I don't understanding where people get off acting like he's making the whole thing up.
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boomer q
Comrade General
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
#7602475 - 11/06/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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the problem is that because of humans, the planet is undergoing its worst mass extinction in the last 65 million years, we're killing off species at a previously unheard of rate because of our wholesale destruction of their habitats. to me, this is as scary as global warming. whales, big cats, monkeys and apes...we could kill all of em in the next 50 years easily if our policies continue as business as usual. an area the size of connecticut is cut down in the rainforest every year...and its not like they can just grow back when we're done with our plantations and logging, thousands of species of plants and animals are lost yearly....that to me is as bad as global warming, let the other plants and animals live here too
if your interested, you should read 'The Future of Life' by Edward Wilson, hes a nobel prize winning biologst, and has won the pulitzer prize twice... its a good yet very depressing read
-------------------- I got bags of funk and i sell em by the tons
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: boomer q]
#7602510 - 11/06/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PDEBXZPIBAPEJQFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/earth/2007/11/04/eaclimate104.xml&page=1
The deceit behind global warming
By Christopher Booker and Richard North Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 04/11/2007 Page 1 of 2
Have your say Read comments
No one can deny that in recent years the need to "save the planet" from global warming has become one of the most pervasive issues of our time. As Tony Blair's chief scientific adviser, Sir David King, claimed in 2004, it poses "a far greater threat to the world than international terrorism", warning that by the end of this century the only habitable continent left will be Antarctica.
Inevitably, many people have been bemused by this somewhat one-sided debate, imagining that if so many experts are agreed, then there must be something in it. But if we set the story of how this fear was promoted in the context of other scares before it, the parallels which emerge might leave any honest believer in global warming feeling uncomfortable.
The story of how the panic over climate change was pushed to the top of the international agenda falls into five main stages. Stage one came in the 1970s when many scientists expressed alarm over what they saw as a disastrous change in the earth's climate. Their fear was not of warming but global cooling, of "a new Ice Age".
For three decades, after a sharp rise in the interwar years up to 1940, global temperatures had been falling. The one thing certain about climate is that it is always changing. Since we began to emerge from the last Ice Age 20,000 years ago, temperatures have been through significant swings several times. The hottest period occurred around 8,000 years ago and was followed by a long cooling. Then came what is known as the "Roman Warming", coinciding with the Roman empire. Three centuries of cooling in the Dark Ages were followed by the "Mediaeval Warming", when the evidence agrees the world was hotter than today.
Around 1300 began "the Little Ice Age", that did not end until 200 years ago, when we entered what is known as the "Modern Warming". But even this has been chequered by colder periods, such as the "Little Cooling" between 1940 and 1975. Then, in the late 1970s, the world began warming again.
A scare is often set off - as we show in our book with other examples - when two things are observed together and scientists suggest one must have been caused by the other. In this case, thanks to readings commissioned by Dr Roger Revelle, a distinguished American oceanographer, it was observed that since the late 1950s levels of carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere had been rising. Perhaps it was this increase that was causing the new warming in the 1980s? advertisement
Stage two of the story began in 1988 when, with remarkable speed, the global warming story was elevated into a ruling orthodoxy, partly due to hearings in Washington chaired by a youngish senator, Al Gore, who had studied under Dr Revelle in the 1960s.
But more importantly global warming hit centre stage because in 1988 the UN set up its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (the IPCC). Through a series of reports, the IPCC was to advance its cause in a rather unusual fashion. First it would commission as many as 1,500 experts to produce a huge scientific report, which might include all sorts of doubts and reservations. But this was to be prefaced by a Summary for Policymakers, drafted in consultation with governments and officials - essentially a political document - in which most of the caveats contained in the experts' report would not appear.
This contradiction was obvious in the first report in 1991, which led to the Rio conference on climate change in 1992. The second report in 1996 gave particular prominence to a study by an obscure US government scientist claiming that the evidence for a connection between global warming and rising CO2 levels was now firmly established. This study came under heavy fire from various leading climate experts for the way it manipulated the evidence. But this was not allowed to stand in the way of the claim that there was now complete scientific consensus behind the CO2 thesis, and the Summary for Policy-makers, heavily influenced from behind the scenes by Al Gore, by this time US Vice-President, paved the way in 1997 for the famous Kyoto Protocol.
Kyoto initiated stage three of the story, by formally committing governments to drastic reductions in their CO2 emissions. But the treaty still had to be ratified and this seemed a good way off, not least thanks to its rejection in 1997 by the US Senate, despite the best attempts of Mr Gore.
Not the least of his efforts was his bid to suppress an article co-authored by Dr Revelle just before his death. Gore didn't want it to be known that his guru had urged that the global warming thesis should be viewed with more caution.
One of the greatest problems Gore and his allies faced at this time was the mass of evidence showing that in the past, global temperatures had been higher than in the late 20th century.
In 1998 came the answer they were looking for: a new temperature chart, devised by a young American physicist, Michael Mann. This became known as the "hockey stick" because it showed historic temperatures running in an almost flat line over the past 1,000 years, then suddenly flicking up at the end to record levels.
Mann's hockey stick was just what the IPCC wanted. When its 2001 report came out it was given pride of place at the top of page 1. The Mediaeval Warming, the Little Ice Age, the 20th century Little Cooling, when CO2 had already been rising, all had been wiped away.
But then a growing number of academics began to raise doubts about Mann and his graph. This culminated in 2003 with a devastating study by two Canadians showing how Mann had not only ignored most of the evidence before him but had used an algorithm that would produce a hockey stick graph whatever evidence was fed into the computer. When this was removed, the graph re-emerged just as it had looked before, showing the Middle Ages as hotter than today.
It is hard to recall any scientific thesis ever being so comprehensively discredited as the "hockey stick". Yet the global warming juggernaut rolled on regardless, now led by the European Union. In 2004, thanks to a highly dubious deal between the EU and Putin's Russia, stage four of the story began when the Kyoto treaty was finally ratified.
In the past three years, we have seen the EU announcing every kind of measure geared to fighting climate change, from building ever more highly-subsidised wind turbines, to a commitment that by 2050 it will have reduced carbon emissions by 60 per cent. This is a pledge that could only be met by such a massive reduction in living standards that it is impossible to see the peoples of Europe accepting it.
All this frenzy has rested on the assumption that global temperatures will continue to rise in tandem with CO2 and that, unless mankind takes drastic action, our planet is faced with the apocalypse so vividly described by Al Gore in his Oscar-winning film An Inconvenient Truth.
Yet recently, stage five of the story has seen all sorts of question marks being raised over Gore's alleged consensus. For instance, he claimed that by the end of this century world sea levels will have risen by 20 ft when even the IPCC in its latest report, only predicts a rise of between four and 17 inches.There is also of course the harsh reality that, wholly unaffected by Kyoto, the economies of China and India are now expanding at nearly 10 per cent a year, with China likely to be emitting more CO2 than the US within two years.
More serious, however, has been all the evidence accumulating to show that, despite the continuing rise in CO2 levels, global temperatures in the years since 1998 have no longer been rising and may soon even be falling.
It was a telling moment when, in August, Gore's closest scientific ally, James Hansen of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, was forced to revise his influential record of US surface temperatures showing that the past decade has seen the hottest years on record. His graph now concedes that the hottest year of the 20th century was not 1998 but 1934, and that four of the 10 warmest years in the past 100 were in the 1930s.
Furthermore, scientists and academics have recently been queuing up to point out that fluctuations in global temperatures correlate more consistently with patterns of radiation from the sun than with any rise in CO2 levels, and that after a century of high solar activity, the sun's effect is now weakening, presaging a likely drop in temperatures.
If global warming does turn out to have been a scare like all the others, it will certainly represent as great a collective flight from reality as history has ever recorded. The evidence of the next 10 years will be very interesting.
• Scared to Death: From BSE To Global Warming - How Scares Are Costing Us The Earth by Christopher Booker and Richard North (Continuum, £16.99) is available for £14.99 + £1.25 p&p. To order call Telegraph Books on 0870 428 4115 or go to books.telegraph.co.uk .
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rexmundi
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Registered: 08/10/07
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
#7603693 - 11/06/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?
Yes, unfortunately. There is very little funding available for people that are doing research that contradicts "global warming". Scientists loose their jobs for stating their opinion on "global warming" being false. Anti-global-warming scientists have been prevented from presenting or attending global warming oriented symposiums. The list goes on and on. The pressure on science to be "pro-global-warming" is so great that data has been falsified to support the global warming crowd.
Ummm, I'm going to have to take issue with that, there are plenty of jobs availible for scientists willing to take a stand against global warming, and plenty of people who have vested interests in hearing scientists talk like that. Oil companies and government experts come to mind.
If global warming is this big hoax as some are suggesting, why are most governments so agonizingly inadequate in their enivoronmental policies?
The discourse might get hyped up a little, but denying global warming seems like reactionary politics to me, akin to conspiracies of "global government" and the UN.
-------------------- "I Love Democracy" -Emporer Palpatine Fuck the system.
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sleepy
zZzZzZzZz
Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 3,888
Loc:
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: rexmundi]
#7603982 - 11/06/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? lol nice
here's what Owsley says on the topic... ahem... "" 1. The Great "Global Warming" Myth
The greenhouse effect is a myth. Extensive and complete measurements which show absolutely NO increase in the average global temperature have been taken over the entire surface of the planet by the Pan Global Temperature satellite, which follows a polar orbit, It and its replacements have been there since 1979. Measurements are taken at a consistent height above the surface, about 300 m, to avoid local variations in terrain. The change it measured is a constant, continuing decline in temperature of 0.01 degree C per year, thus the current glabal temperature is now a full quarter of a degree LOWER than it was 21 years ago. Perhaps the decrease is due to the melting of polar ice. Measurements showing a rise are taken exclusively from the temperate regions, and may reflect the transport of heat on its way to the polar regions. Quite simply, Global warming does not exist. There are so many buffers in the atmosphere that it is highly unlikely to ever happen, even if the so called "greenhouse gas" content were to increase hundreds of times over.
CO2, this important gas is the principle 'culprit' according to the eco-terrorists. The CO2 content in the atmosphere is only a very tiny amount, about 300 parts per million (.03%). This CO2 stays in the air in equilibrium with the CO2 dissolved in the oceans. Since CO2 has a very steep curve of solubility in water, the amount found in the air is critically dependent upon the sea surface temperatures (cold rain falling is an excellent CO2 scrubber). World CO2 measurements have traditionally been based on the levels tested in the air at Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii. The charts of the levels fluctuate seasonally, rising in the early summer and falling in the early winter. If the levels are compared to the actual sea surface temperature measurements taken at Hilo, which is at the base of Mauna Loa, the seasonal variations are seen to track exactly with the temperature. Even the gradual increase over time is duplicated in the temperature reading, as the average SST temperature at Hilo has been rising in exact lock step with the rise in the Mauna Loa CO2 levels. (The charts of these measurements are available, making this a trivial exercise if you wish to verify my statements).
Burning fossil fuels is probably one of the most important aids to the life cycle on this oxygen-rich, carbon-poor planet that man can do. Most of the primeval carbon is locked away in the oil and coal deposits formed over the ages by cell death of the phytoplankton (diatoms), which created the oxygen-rich environment by decarboxylating the CO2 in the primitive atmosphere. The limits placed on CO2 are unreasonable and impede the creation of wealth which benefits everyone, and are harmful to the plant life at the same time.""
http://www.thebear.org/essays.html#anchor433446
I think it's more important to keep heavy metals out of the water/food supply which is pretty easily done if you know what contains heavy metals are like batteries etc. which have been shown to cause developmental problems in children.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: sleepy]
#7604091 - 11/06/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I love this part:
Quote:
Burning fossil fuels is probably one of the most important aids to the life cycle on this oxygen-rich, carbon-poor planet that man can do. Most of the primeval carbon is locked away in the oil and coal deposits formed over the ages by cell death of the phytoplankton (diatoms), which created the oxygen-rich environment by decarboxylating the CO2 in the primitive atmosphere. The limits placed on CO2 are unreasonable and impede the creation of wealth which benefits everyone, and are harmful to the plant life at the same time.
So now industrialization is actually good for the planet?!
Even Exxon-Mobil wouldn't go that far. The idea that the earth actually needs us to burn fossil fuels is about the funniest thing I've heard in years.
Also, what he(and most other people) fails to get is that reducing carbon emissions is actually going to save us money, because less fuel consumption means less cost.
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Caribou_Lou
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
#7604683 - 11/06/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Global warming is real, anyone who doesn't believe that is ignorant. Al gore is an idiot, but some of the stuff he said is true.
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ApJunkie
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: sleepy]
#7604687 - 11/06/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not even going to try on that article. Everything, and I mean literally everything in that article was bullshit.
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