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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7601435 - 11/06/07 05:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?

Yes, unfortunately. There is very little funding available for people that are doing research that contradicts "global warming". Scientists loose their jobs for stating their opinion on "global warming" being false. Anti-global-warming scientists have been prevented from presenting or attending global warming oriented symposiums. The list goes on and on. The pressure on science to be "pro-global-warming" is so great that data has been falsified to support the global warming crowd.

Please note, that I consider "global warming" to be different than climate change. I have no doubt that the climate is a dynamic system and that it is currently undergoing a warming trend. I view the "global warming" crowd as ecoterrorists, trying to scare people into change.

> Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet?

Yes, absolutely. We have people going nuts trying to save glaciers and the like. By trying to fix a problem that may not be a problem, we can actually create a worse mess than dynamic climate change will create on its own. One cannot beat mother nature; we have to adapt. I find it very frightening that we are trying to fix a problem that we do not fully understand.

At the same time I have no problem with people trying to be more conservative. There is nothing wrong with this... but we should do it because we know it is the right thing to do, not because some shmuck decided to create a movie with made up science and scare us with the big bad global warming monster.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
    #7601512 - 11/06/07 07:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Global cooling?

SHIT!

Quick.. we're going to need to up our carbon emissions and start driving hummers to deplete the ozone to counteract it!

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7601609 - 11/06/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The anti-global warming movement is, to me, similar to the "government caused 9-11" conspiracy. I'm not an expert on either subject, but instinct tells me that global warming is real, just like i really don't think bush caused 9-11. There's just no fucking way we can be doing all this shit to the earth...and not hurting our enviroment.

(I say our enviroment because, as George Carlin said, global warming doesn't really hurt the earth, it hurts our ability to live on the earth. The earth will be fine. We won't.)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
    #7601625 - 11/06/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?

Yes, unfortunately. There is very little funding available for people that are doing research that contradicts "global warming". Scientists loose their jobs for stating their opinion on "global warming" being false. Anti-global-warming scientists have been prevented from presenting or attending global warming oriented symposiums. The list goes on and on. The pressure on science to be "pro-global-warming" is so great that data has been falsified to support the global warming crowd.



If what you say is true, it makes me wonder what other kind of inquisitory dogmas are enforced in the scientific community.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7601640 - 11/06/07 08:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If what you say is true, it makes me wonder what other kind of inquisitory dogmas are enforced in the scientific community.

I wouldn't say that this is a case of enforcement within "the scientific community" so much as it is the result of political motivations restricting the scientific community.

Unfortunately a great deal of funding for basic research comes from political organizations.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
    #7601677 - 11/06/07 08:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I can agree with you there, but unfortunately think it may be necessary. Most people in the world are far too stupid to understand the potential consequences of letting our population balloon to 9 or 10 billion people although I won't say any names (you know who you are, Texans).

Quote:

yes, absolutely. We have people going nuts trying to save glaciers and the like. By trying to fix a problem that may not be a problem, we can actually create a worse mess than dynamic climate change will create on its own. One cannot beat mother nature; we have to adapt.




I agree with you completely. Some of the things I see people worried about are spectacularly stupid, such as the melting glaciers. But even though most people only really want to save the glaciers because they're pretty, much of the science being published about climate change really do present promising points.
What about Water conservation? you know we can't just keep on with our water usage as we have been without finding some solution to reclaim it, or desalinize ocean water cheaply.

Visionary tools; Don't you think sometimes it might be necessary to tell people how to act? Nobody would ever make an effort to stop overpopulation, because sex feels better than... well, anything. Don't you think it's necessary for us to put some kind of mild restriction in place to prevent catholics from cranking out 15 kids and ruining the planet?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
    #7601786 - 11/06/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet?

Yes, absolutely. We have people going nuts trying to save glaciers and the like. By trying to fix a problem that may not be a problem, we can actually create a worse mess than dynamic climate change will create on its own. One cannot beat mother nature; we have to adapt. I find it very frightening that we are trying to fix a problem that we do not fully understand.



Have you noticed that almost all attempts at "fixing" the problem are simply geared towards having less of an impact? There are some "last resort" solutions that have offered which would actually cool the planet while we regroup, but most solutions offered involve reducing carbon emissions, and quite frankly, I can't see the harm in that. It's not trying to fuck with Mother Nature. It's trying to stop fucking with her.

Quote:

At the same time I have no problem with people trying to be more conservative. There is nothing wrong with this... but we should do it because we know it is the right thing to do, not because some shmuck decided to create a movie with made up science and scare us with the big bad global warming monster.



Made up science? You mean the science that has dominated scientific journals? As I indicated earlier, I'm willing to accept the possibility that global warming skeptics have been unfairly blackballed from scientific journals(though it was my impression that it was their fellow scientists who determined what content got published in them), but Al Gore is clearly citing the mainstream scientific community. I don't understanding where people get off acting like he's making the whole thing up.


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Offlineboomer q
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7602475 - 11/06/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the problem is that because of humans, the planet is undergoing its worst mass extinction in the last 65 million years, we're killing off species at a previously unheard of rate because of our wholesale destruction of their habitats. to me, this is as scary as global warming. whales, big cats, monkeys and apes...we could kill all of em in the next 50 years easily if our policies continue as business as usual. an area the size of connecticut is cut down in the rainforest every year...and its not like they can just grow back when we're done with our plantations and logging, thousands of species of plants and animals are lost yearly....that to me is as bad as global warming, let the other plants and animals live here too

if your interested, you should read 'The Future of Life' by Edward Wilson, hes a nobel prize winning biologst, and has won the pulitzer prize twice... its a good yet very depressing read


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: boomer q]
    #7602510 - 11/06/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PDEBXZPIBAPEJQFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/earth/2007/11/04/eaclimate104.xml&page=1



The deceit behind global warming

By Christopher Booker and Richard North
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 04/11/2007
Page 1 of 2

Have your say Read comments

No one can deny that in recent years the need to "save the planet" from global warming has become one of the most pervasive issues of our time. As Tony Blair's chief scientific adviser, Sir David King, claimed in 2004, it poses "a far greater threat to the world than international terrorism", warning that by the end of this century the only habitable continent left will be Antarctica.

Inevitably, many people have been bemused by this somewhat one-sided debate, imagining that if so many experts are agreed, then there must be something in it. But if we set the story of how this fear was promoted in the context of other scares before it, the parallels which emerge might leave any honest believer in global warming feeling uncomfortable.

The story of how the panic over climate change was pushed to the top of the international agenda falls into five main stages. Stage one came in the 1970s when many scientists expressed alarm over what they saw as a disastrous change in the earth's climate. Their fear was not of warming but global cooling, of "a new Ice Age".

For three decades, after a sharp rise in the interwar years up to 1940, global temperatures had been falling. The one thing certain about climate is that it is always changing. Since we began to emerge from the last Ice Age 20,000 years ago, temperatures have been through significant swings several times. The hottest period occurred around 8,000 years ago and was followed by a long cooling. Then came what is known as the "Roman Warming", coinciding with the Roman empire. Three centuries of cooling in the Dark Ages were followed by the "Mediaeval Warming", when the evidence agrees the world was hotter than today.

Around 1300 began "the Little Ice Age", that did not end until 200 years ago, when we entered what is known as the "Modern Warming". But even this has been chequered by colder periods, such as the "Little Cooling" between 1940 and 1975. Then, in the late 1970s, the world began warming again.

A scare is often set off - as we show in our book with other examples - when two things are observed together and scientists suggest one must have been caused by the other. In this case, thanks to readings commissioned by Dr Roger Revelle, a distinguished American oceanographer, it was observed that since the late 1950s levels of carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere had been rising. Perhaps it was this increase that was causing the new warming in the 1980s?
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Stage two of the story began in 1988 when, with remarkable speed, the global warming story was elevated into a ruling orthodoxy, partly due to hearings in Washington chaired by a youngish senator, Al Gore, who had studied under Dr Revelle in the 1960s.

But more importantly global warming hit centre stage because in 1988 the UN set up its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (the IPCC). Through a series of reports, the IPCC was to advance its cause in a rather unusual fashion. First it would commission as many as 1,500 experts to produce a huge scientific report, which might include all sorts of doubts and reservations. But this was to be prefaced by a Summary for Policymakers, drafted in consultation with governments and officials - essentially a political document - in which most of the caveats contained in the experts' report would not appear.

This contradiction was obvious in the first report in 1991, which led to the Rio conference on climate change in 1992. The second report in 1996 gave particular prominence to a study by an obscure US government scientist claiming that the evidence for a connection between global warming and rising CO2 levels was now firmly established. This study came under heavy fire from various leading climate experts for the way it manipulated the evidence. But this was not allowed to stand in the way of the claim that there was now complete scientific consensus behind the CO2 thesis, and the Summary for Policy-makers, heavily influenced from behind the scenes by Al Gore, by this time US Vice-President, paved the way in 1997 for the famous Kyoto Protocol.

Kyoto initiated stage three of the story, by formally committing governments to drastic reductions in their CO2 emissions. But the treaty still had to be ratified and this seemed a good way off, not least thanks to its rejection in 1997 by the US Senate, despite the best attempts of Mr Gore.

Not the least of his efforts was his bid to suppress an article co-authored by Dr Revelle just before his death. Gore didn't want it to be known that his guru had urged that the global warming thesis should be viewed with more caution.

One of the greatest problems Gore and his allies faced at this time was the mass of evidence showing that in the past, global temperatures had been higher than in the late 20th century.

In 1998 came the answer they were looking for: a new temperature chart, devised by a young American physicist, Michael Mann. This became known as the "hockey stick" because it showed historic temperatures running in an almost flat line over the past 1,000 years, then suddenly flicking up at the end to record levels.

Mann's hockey stick was just what the IPCC wanted. When its 2001 report came out it was given pride of place at the top of page 1. The Mediaeval Warming, the Little Ice Age, the 20th century Little Cooling, when CO2 had already been rising, all had been wiped away.

But then a growing number of academics began to raise doubts about Mann and his graph. This culminated in 2003 with a devastating study by two Canadians showing how Mann had not only ignored most of the evidence before him but had used an algorithm that would produce a hockey stick graph whatever evidence was fed into the computer. When this was removed, the graph re-emerged just as it had looked before, showing the Middle Ages as hotter than today.

It is hard to recall any scientific thesis ever being so comprehensively discredited as the "hockey stick". Yet the global warming juggernaut rolled on regardless, now led by the European Union. In 2004, thanks to a highly dubious deal between the EU and Putin's Russia, stage four of the story began when the Kyoto treaty was finally ratified.

In the past three years, we have seen the EU announcing every kind of measure geared to fighting climate change, from building ever more highly-subsidised wind turbines, to a commitment that by 2050 it will have reduced carbon emissions by 60 per cent. This is a pledge that could only be met by such a massive reduction in living standards that it is impossible to see the peoples of Europe accepting it.

All this frenzy has rested on the assumption that global temperatures will continue to rise in tandem with CO2 and that, unless mankind takes drastic action, our planet is faced with the apocalypse so vividly described by Al Gore in his Oscar-winning film An Inconvenient Truth.

Yet recently, stage five of the story has seen all sorts of question marks being raised over Gore's alleged consensus. For instance, he claimed that by the end of this century world sea levels will have risen by 20 ft when even the IPCC in its latest report, only predicts a rise of between four and 17 inches.There is also of course the harsh reality that, wholly unaffected by Kyoto, the economies of China and India are now expanding at nearly 10 per cent a year, with China likely to be emitting more CO2 than the US within two years.

More serious, however, has been all the evidence accumulating to show that, despite the continuing rise in CO2 levels, global temperatures in the years since 1998 have no longer been rising and may soon even be falling.

It was a telling moment when, in August, Gore's closest scientific ally, James Hansen of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, was forced to revise his influential record of US surface temperatures showing that the past decade has seen the hottest years on record. His graph now concedes that the hottest year of the 20th century was not 1998 but 1934, and that four of the 10 warmest years in the past 100 were in the 1930s.

Furthermore, scientists and academics have recently been queuing up to point out that fluctuations in global temperatures correlate more consistently with patterns of radiation from the sun than with any rise in CO2 levels, and that after a century of high solar activity, the sun's effect is now weakening, presaging a likely drop in temperatures.

If global warming does turn out to have been a scare like all the others, it will certainly represent as great a collective flight from reality as history has ever recorded. The evidence of the next 10 years will be very interesting.

• Scared to Death: From BSE To Global Warming - How Scares Are Costing Us The Earth by Christopher Booker and Richard North (Continuum, £16.99) is available for £14.99 + £1.25 p&p. To order call Telegraph Books on 0870 428 4115 or go to books.telegraph.co.uk .


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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Seuss]
    #7603693 - 11/06/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?

Yes, unfortunately.  There is very little funding available for people that are doing research that contradicts "global warming".  Scientists loose their jobs for stating their opinion on "global warming" being false.  Anti-global-warming scientists have been prevented from presenting or attending global warming oriented symposiums.  The list goes on and on.  The pressure on science to be "pro-global-warming" is so great that data has been falsified to support the global warming crowd.





Ummm, I'm going to have to take issue with that, there are plenty of jobs availible for scientists willing to take a stand against global warming, and plenty of people who have vested interests in hearing scientists talk like that.  Oil companies and government experts come to mind.

If global warming is this big hoax as some are suggesting, why are most governments so agonizingly inadequate in their enivoronmental policies?

The discourse might get hyped up a little, but denying global warming seems like reactionary politics to me, akin to conspiracies of "global government" and the UN.

:tokeeporder:


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Fuck the system.

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: rexmundi]
    #7603982 - 11/06/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? lol nice

here's what Owsley says on the topic...
ahem...
""
1. The Great "Global Warming" Myth

The greenhouse effect is a myth. Extensive and complete measurements which show absolutely NO increase in the average global temperature have been taken over the entire surface of the planet by the Pan Global Temperature satellite, which follows a polar orbit, It and its replacements have been there since 1979. Measurements are taken at a consistent height above the surface, about 300 m, to avoid local variations in terrain. The change it measured is a constant, continuing decline in temperature of 0.01 degree C per year, thus the current glabal temperature is now a full quarter of a degree LOWER than it was 21 years ago. Perhaps the decrease is due to the melting of polar ice. Measurements showing a rise are taken exclusively from the temperate regions, and may reflect the transport of heat on its way to the polar regions. Quite simply, Global warming does not exist. There are so many buffers in the atmosphere that it is highly unlikely to ever happen, even if the so called "greenhouse gas" content were to increase hundreds of times over.

CO2, this important gas is the principle 'culprit' according to the eco-terrorists. The CO2 content in the atmosphere is only a very tiny amount, about 300 parts per million (.03%). This CO2 stays in the air in equilibrium with the CO2 dissolved in the oceans. Since CO2 has a very steep curve of solubility in water, the amount found in the air is critically dependent upon the sea surface temperatures (cold rain falling is an excellent CO2 scrubber). World CO2 measurements have traditionally been based on the levels tested in the air at Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii. The charts of the levels fluctuate seasonally, rising in the early summer and falling in the early winter. If the levels are compared to the actual sea surface temperature measurements taken at Hilo, which is at the base of Mauna Loa, the seasonal variations are seen to track exactly with the temperature. Even the gradual increase over time is duplicated in the temperature reading, as the average SST temperature at Hilo has been rising in exact lock step with the rise in the Mauna Loa CO2 levels. (The charts of these measurements are available, making this a trivial exercise if you wish to verify my statements).

Burning fossil fuels is probably one of the most important aids to the life cycle on this oxygen-rich, carbon-poor planet that man can do. Most of the primeval carbon is locked away in the oil and coal deposits formed over the ages by cell death of the phytoplankton (diatoms), which created the oxygen-rich environment by decarboxylating the CO2 in the primitive atmosphere. The limits placed on CO2 are unreasonable and impede the creation of wealth which benefits everyone, and are harmful to the plant life at the same time.""

http://www.thebear.org/essays.html#anchor433446

I think it's more important to keep heavy metals out of the water/food supply which is pretty easily done if you know what contains heavy metals are like batteries etc. which have been shown to cause developmental problems in children.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: sleepy]
    #7604091 - 11/06/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I love this part:
Quote:

Burning fossil fuels is probably one of the most important aids to the life cycle on this oxygen-rich, carbon-poor planet that man can do. Most of the primeval carbon is locked away in the oil and coal deposits formed over the ages by cell death of the phytoplankton (diatoms), which created the oxygen-rich environment by decarboxylating the CO2 in the primitive atmosphere. The limits placed on CO2 are unreasonable and impede the creation of wealth which benefits everyone, and are harmful to the plant life at the same time.



So now industrialization is actually good for the planet?! :lol:

Even Exxon-Mobil wouldn't go that far.  The idea that the earth actually needs us to burn fossil fuels is about the funniest thing I've heard in years.

Also, what he(and most other people) fails to get is that reducing carbon emissions is actually going to save us money, because less fuel consumption means less cost.


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OfflineCaribou_Lou
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7604683 - 11/06/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Global warming is real, anyone who doesn't believe that is ignorant. Al gore is an idiot, but some of the stuff he said is true.

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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: sleepy]
    #7604687 - 11/06/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not even going to try on that article. Everything, and I mean literally everything in that article was bullshit.

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