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mr_kite
The Watcher
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Astral Piper]
#7073467 - 06/21/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Astral Piper said: There is no credible scientific evidence that human activity has had any effect on climactic change whatsoever. Yet various pundits, politicians, media and celebrity personalities have pronounced this as "established science" and beyond debate.
THAT is the problem.
I realize that people see churning smoke erupting from trucks and buses, or pictures of stagnant air enveloping entire cities in China, and they extrapolate that to mean the demise of all life as we know it.
Yet there is no evidence to support this at all.
But, as in the aforementioned article from the Financial Times, various governmental agencies and NGOs are demanding the reallocation of resources to address a "problem." People are being told that their lifestyles are complicit in killing the environment, and that to ignore calls for radically modifying the entire economies of the nations which comprise the modern industrialized is bordering on criminal collusion. Absolute nonsense.
The standard of living we have in the modern world today is directly tied to the modern market economies of the powerhouses of our globe - namely The United States and several large nations in Europe. That standard of living has extended human lifespan while at the same time increasing the quality of our lives UNIVERSALLY - both in the modern industrialized world and in those nations still in the developmental stages of their respective economies.
One radical environmentalist in the 1960s declared that anecdotal evidence showed that DDT was responsible for numerous birth defects and genetic damage. This message was celebrated by a sympathetic media and gained momentum, leading to eventual legislation that banned the production and use of one of the most effective weapons in the fight against mosquitoes (and the malarial disease they transmit) - subsequently, MILLIONS of lives in Africa have been lost to that nefarious disease when they could possibly have been saved.
This is the result of people's inability to see beyond their own political predilections, and their desire to pronounce scientific proofs without the benefit of actual hard empirical evidence.
So while you are trying to find "middle ground" in an area that is being propounded ceaselessly by a complicit media, some of us refuse to acknowledge the pseudo-science and mindless nonsense spouting from the peanut gallery.
The real root of this problem is ignorance. So many people today who believe they are educated really display the same proclivity for repeating slogans and neologisms that are based in their own fantasies simply because these "fit" with their preconceptions.
Many people seem to have reached a point where their "book learning" has far exceeded their ability to think critically.
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea. In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." Robert Anton Wilson
Sometimes you dont need absolute conclusive evidence to backup common sense. I fail to understand people who get bogged down in all the spin and dont just acknowledge the fact that there is a large (not definite) possibility that our planet is heating up largely due to human behaviour. And is the old addage that prevention is better than cure not fairly sensible?
I have in front of me a newspaper article from a month ago I cut out and kept. It's all about logging. This is not entirely relevant to the debate here but I think itll be of interest to everyone. It certainly shocked me. And in a way I think it is very relevant as it shows how the rape of our planet's natural habitats causes far more damage than other human behaviour such as transport and industry.
"In the next 24 hours, deforestation will release as much CO2 into the atmosphere as 8 million people flying from London to New York." If logging continues as it is now for the next four years, there will be pumped in those four years alone "more CO2 into the atmosphere than every flight in the history of aviation to at least 2025". The rainforests form a precious cooling band around the equator, and they contain 50% of life on earth yet cover an area of only 7% of the planet's surface. Every year an area the size of the UK is destroyed.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: mr_kite]
#7082831 - 06/23/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's simple enough. The scaremongering is to condition people that further development and use of coal, oil and gas power stations is evil. This means that third world and developing nations will be kept impoverished, so their little exploited resources can be mined more cheaply.
Global warming has become a campaign to keep poor countries poor so we can live in cheap luxury. No one dares advertise the fact that climate on all planets in the solar system is heating up! We're warmer today because the sun is more active. We can no more change that than make water run uphill.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7082843 - 06/23/07 07:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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However, why is CO2 being touted as the most evil pollutant which we must all fear? CFC's I can understand due to their affects upon the Ozone layer, but why is there no mainstream media attention diverted to sulfur dioxide? This is a far worse pollutant. Whereas CO2 is a benefit to plants, sulfur dioxide is converted easily into sulfuric acid which damages anything it precipitates upon.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7597974 - 11/05/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: It's simple enough. The scaremongering is to condition people that further development and use of coal, oil and gas power stations is evil. This means that third world and developing nations will be kept impoverished, so their little exploited resources can be mined more cheaply.
Global warming has become a campaign to keep poor countries poor so we can live in cheap luxury. No one dares advertise the fact that climate on all planets in the solar system is heating up! We're warmer today because the sun is more active. We can no more change that than make water run uphill.
Woo! My first post *hugs it*
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pong
kretan
Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 4,311
Loc: west coast
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: mr_kite]
#7597990 - 11/05/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said: The rainforests form a precious cooling band around the equator, and they contain 50% of life on earth yet cover an area of only 7% of the planet's surface. Every year an area the size of the UK is destroyed.
i doubt that it contains 50% of life. maybe 50% of species of life.
but the ocean IMO has way more than 50% of the worlds life.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: pong]
#7598137 - 11/05/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.nature.org/rainforests/explore/facts.html
Quote:
Fact: Covering less than 2 percent of the Earth's total surface area, the world's rainforests are home to 50 percent of the Earth's plants and animals.
They probably mean 50% of land animals and plants. I can see that.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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rexmundi
Stranger
Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 314
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: pong]
#7598139 - 11/05/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Saying that modern market economies and human activity has increased the standard of living universally and had no negative impact on the planet is utter nonsense. The rest is just detail, like Ockham, we must recognize bullshit for what it is.
-------------------- "I Love Democracy" -Emporer Palpatine Fuck the system.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: rexmundi]
#7598334 - 11/05/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rexmundi said: Saying that modern market economies and human activity has increased the standard of living universally and had no negative impact on the planet is utter nonsense. The rest is just detail, like Ockham, we must recognize bullshit for what it is.
I'm pretty sure it's worse for the Africans and the Chinese since industrialisation has led to constant wars and suffering in one case, and complete state control in the other.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7599878 - 11/05/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually, the huge drop in global poverty that has occurred in the last 30 years or so can be predominantly explained by China.
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aDoS
freedom lover
Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 7,590
Loc: land of the free
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: trendal]
#7599899 - 11/05/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Honestly I think global warming is bullshit. The world has cycles...it gets warm, it gets cold. I remember in Al Gore's movie (btw he made a huge profit off of, over 7 figures) he said something similar to "global warming causes drought, but some people go why is it raining more this year, well because global warming can also cause it to rain more" Like wtf is that? That totally contradicts itself. That is called weather.
-------------------- "If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: aDoS]
#7599931 - 11/05/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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My boss the other day was remarking about how global warming has been causing all these hurricanes. wtf? What hurricanes? Even if there was some global hurricane outbreak, it certainly cant be attributed to global warming at this point. The term 'butterfly effect' comes from trying to predict the weather. Sad thing is my boss works at a place for science and math students
He also likes Al Gore's film as well as "What the bleep do we know?" so I pretty much dismiss anything he says.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: DieCommie]
#7600043 - 11/05/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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As I understand it, the effect of global warming on hurricanes will not be more of them, but rather an increase in intensity. From what I've heard, this has been the observed effect so far. As far as I can tell, the data overwhelmingly supports the fact that the Earth's climate is getting warmer, and we are seeing very alarming results from that.
The human contribution to this warming is certainly a matter of debate, but as I've come to understand it, the majority of climate scientists do believe that the human contribution is significant. Perhaps the media hypes the degree of agreement, or the predicted effects, but if 6 doctors tell me I'm sick and 4 tell me I'm not, I'm going to listen to those 6, because I have more to lose by not listening to them.
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ApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Silversoul]
#7600206 - 11/05/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What I don't understand is all these people who get so worked up over the possibility that Global Warming is just a hoax. Even if it is, who gives a fuck? Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet? We're not the only animals here you know.
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Kamin
Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 449
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: ApJunkie]
#7600947 - 11/05/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The predictions for global warming are supposed to be like...a tenth of a degree per decade or something minute like that. I find it hard to believe that somehow, even though the earth has been around for billions of years, that people believe evidence from such a small fraction of the worlds history, could be used to claim such predictions. That is like me going and interviewing a single person on their beliefs, and claiming that it is a valid sample of the rest of the earth's population. On the other hand, there is no harm in trying to cause less pollution and advancing technology to rely less on oil and coal etc. But the current 'crisis' mode that is going on now is overboard.
Wow, what a revival.
Edited by Kamin (11/05/07 11:16 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Kamin]
#7600993 - 11/05/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kamin said: The predictions for global warming are supposed to be like...a tenth of a degree per decade or something minute like that. I find it hard to believe that somehow, even though the earth has been around for billions of years, that people believe evidence from such a small fraction of the worlds history, could be used to claim such predictions. That is like me going and interviewing a single person on their beliefs, and claiming that it is a valid sample of the rest of the earth's population.
Based on arctic ice samples and geological data, we actually have a good idea of earth's climate history going back long before humans existed.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: DieCommie]
#7600997 - 11/05/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its global who keeps fucking with the thermostat.
-------------------- Asshole
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7601096 - 11/05/07 11:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Apparently the last survey of scientific opinion on this subject was in 2004:
Quote:
A 2004 article by geologist and historian of science Naomi Oreskes summarized a study of the scientific literature on climate change.[29] The essay concluded that there is a scientific consensus on the reality of anthropogenic climate change. The author analyzed 928 abstracts of papers from refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, listed with the keywords "global climate change". Oreskes divided the abstracts into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. 75% of the abstracts were placed in the first three categories, thus either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, thus taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change; none of the abstracts disagreed with the consensus position, which the author found to be "remarkable". According to the report, "authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Surveys_of_scientists_and_scientific_literature
I realize there are scientists who disagree with the majority opinion, but where's the beef? Peer-reviewed scientific journal articles are essential for widespread scientific acceptance. If anthropogenic global warming is all hype, then haven't the skeptics stepped up to the plate where it counts? Is the mass media controlling the scientific journals?
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: Kamin]
#7601234 - 11/06/07 01:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kamin said: The predictions for global warming are supposed to be like...a tenth of a degree per decade or something minute like that. I find it hard to believe that somehow, even though the earth has been around for billions of years, that people believe evidence from such a small fraction of the worlds history, could be used to claim such predictions. That is like me going and interviewing a single person on their beliefs, and claiming that it is a valid sample of the rest of the earth's population. On the other hand, there is no harm in trying to cause less pollution and advancing technology to rely less on oil and coal etc. But the current 'crisis' mode that is going on now is overboard.
Wow, what a revival.
Apparently, by the number of SUVs I see on the road every day, it's not much of a crisis. Perhaps we should be MORE alarmed?
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: kake]
#7601244 - 11/06/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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blah blah blah, there is no conclusive evidence one way or teh other humans are warming the globe or not warming the globe, and there won't be for another x amount of years, eons and shit to accurately compile piles of statistical data that can then be used to correlate humans and their contraptions and the escalation of global temps. blah blah blah, blah blah blah.
-------------------- Asshole
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Watch out for Global Warm....oh....cooling? [Re: ApJunkie]
#7601421 - 11/06/07 05:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ApJunkie said: What I don't understand is all these people who get so worked up over the possibility that Global Warming is just a hoax. Even if it is, who gives a fuck? Does it really bother you that much to try to make less of an impact on the planet? We're not the only animals here you know.
I know the climate is getting warmer, this is not hard to find out. What I object to is moves to ban incandescent light bulbs (which are safer when working with bandsaws/drills/lathes.) and forcing people to buy CFL lightbulbs, whilst ignoring LED's altogether. What I object to is other countries preventing India and African countries from making their own coal or gas power stations "because they're polluting." thus keeping them in pre industrialised poverty. What I object to is our government saying buying too much food is making the world warmer.
Fucking hell, stuff like that is a drop in the ocean in terms of climate change, and will do nothing to change current patterns. But it's a really, nasty way of telling people how to live, how to act and how to think. Normally any of the above mentioned items would have difficulty being reality. But now you add the all new and amazing religion of climate change and suddenly it's okay to have enforced abortions, "climate tax", less food, less safety and even more surveillance.
PS: For what it's worth, I weave daises into my long hair, I have a 12 string guitar, and psychedelics are my favourite chemicals short of sugar.
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