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Offlinenugsarenice
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The bible and War
    #706870 - 06/27/02 10:40 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Some christians, such as Bush, have repeatedly used christianity to push thier agenda. I believe any war is extreme, in such extreme philosphy like buddhism. That no violence is right. So what I am asking, is does anyone here have direct proof that the bible, god, is with Bush? I have just found some very intersting words of god (jesus) that I will share. But first I want to hear your opinions.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The bible and War [Re: nugsarenice]
    #707425 - 06/28/02 08:05 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Direct proof that God is with Bush? Umm, I don't have any of that but I'm willing to bet God is not with him. I think any war in the name of religion is completely and utterly ridiculous and oxymoronic. "One of our Ten Commandments says 'thou shalt not kill,' so we are going to kill a bunch of you until you believe in our Ten Commandments."
How stupid is that???
Now what are these intersting words you have from Jesus?

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #707756 - 06/28/02 10:52 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

well, I preist did inaugarate Bush, fooled most of ameirca, actually was a black baptist, I saw it on public telelvision, it gave me hope to his inner good. However he is evil.


Here is them:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love they neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you: Love your enemiy.



"But if you have an enemy, do not requite him evil with good, for that would put him to shame. Rather prove that he did you some good. And rather be angry than put to shame. And if you are cursed, I do not like it that you want to bless. Rather join a little in the cursing."

"Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not..... Avenge not yourselves, but give place unto wrath.: for it is written, Vengeance is mine: I will repay saith the Lord, Therefore, if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for if doing though shalth heap coals of fire on his head."

thas all i got for now. fuck organized religion.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The bible and War [Re: nugsarenice]
    #707798 - 06/28/02 11:08 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

fuck organized religion.

I'm with you on that one

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #707814 - 06/28/02 11:15 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

According to the cia factbook the u.s. is:

Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989

I doubt this.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The bible and War [Re: nugsarenice]
    #707897 - 06/28/02 11:49 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I know very very few people who follow any sort of organized religion these days, especially people my age.
I believe the church is going down.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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OfflineInDiCaToRgReEn
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #709324 - 06/28/02 08:00 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

i think any idiot can attest to the fact that your religions has what has got us here in this fucked up world today. god, on your side. did you ever think that mybe those people that lived two thousand years ago were either fucked on drugs or the message has been so distorted over time. if god talked then, must he not talk now?

life is beautiful oneness and love if you let go of it.

war is funny cause they are acting like children. i mean what are they fighting for, a bigger piece of the illusion. i mean if somebody held a gun to my head i would laugh, cause what are they taking away from me?


--------------------
"oh to be a kid again, not a worry in the world except mybe the lack of bubbles in the bath tub"

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #709437 - 06/28/02 08:22 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"I think any war in the name of religion is completely and utterly ridiculous and oxymoronic."

How so? Religious texts are filled with brutality, war, and murder. Thats what its all about. Its our nature.


--------------------
:egyptian:

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #709766 - 06/28/02 09:40 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

"One of our Ten Commandments says 'thou shalt not kill,' so we are going to kill a bunch of you until you believe in our Ten Commandments."



The commandment says 'You shall not murder." 'Thou shalt not kill is a BAD translation of the word murder. Read it in the hebrew and it's clear. Read it in an english Tanakh and it's clear. Read it in the new testament when Jesus quotes the commandments and read that he spoke the words "Thou shalt not murder".


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The bible and War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #709921 - 06/28/02 10:40 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

For every thing there is a season. But by emphasizing "murder", it brings into question what is "murder", as opposed to "kill". So it just goes back to the spirit of the law. Either way, murder or kill, it helps to make RebelSteve33's point.

Edited by hongomon (06/28/02 10:41 PM)

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The bible and War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #709940 - 06/28/02 10:56 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Are you saying there is a difference between killing and murdering?
Killing people in a war is just murder that is made legal by some stupid human who likes to play God. And besides, God supposedly gave life to and loves all humans... So why would he want people to kill/murder other people for the sake of spreading His word?
Just doesn't make sense to me...

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #710518 - 06/29/02 08:17 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Hey rebel steve. You are saying all my shit before I can. and Nugs. I believe that was the most introspective quote I've seen in ages. FUCK ORGANIZED RELIGION. The other quote I want to add is a famous one.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses."
I am very down on most organized religions. I was actually a satannist during my late teens because it was fun. Then I realized it was just more dogma. I need no dogma. I am ME and that is all I need.
I do have to argue one point with you. I do think that the christian god would be on bush's side if it were real. But thats only because men like Bush created/ perpetuate god. God was created in man's image of himself not vice versa.

Postalboy


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The bible and War [Re: postalboy]
    #710522 - 06/29/02 08:19 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

did you even read the quotes of Jesus? if bush was a christian he would've not retaliated against afghanistan,, or support Israel.

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OfflineTrOmAn
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Re: The bible and War [Re: nugsarenice]
    #710797 - 06/29/02 10:02 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

so lets just lay down, like the rest of the sheep and not fight, and watch our people being slaughtererd by the thousands on CNN....yeah...ok...you peaceful weak minded "love thy brother" wussies sicken me.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The bible and War [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #710876 - 06/29/02 10:41 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, ther is a big difference between killing and murder. Murder is the sinful and unjust taking of innocent blood. Killing can be as punishment for crime or in defence of your life or families life or in war.

I'de like to share another quote from Jesus. (Luke 22:36) He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Obviously Jesus wanted us to be able to defend ourselves and those around us. What other use would there be for a sword. I think if Jesus came to us today he might say to buy a shotgun or rifle instead of the sword.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (06/29/02 10:50 AM)

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The bible and War [Re: nugsarenice]
    #710880 - 06/29/02 10:43 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I think that what postalboy is saying is that the Biblical god, particularly the Old Testament god, can be as tyrannical and violent as any modern dictator. The kinder, more transcendant god put forth by Christ is basically a different god. So while the OT god might be right behind Bush and his administration, Christ's god definitely wouldn't.

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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: The bible and War [Re: TrOmAn]
    #710892 - 06/29/02 10:48 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

so lets just lay down, like the rest of the sheep and not fight, and watch our people being slaughtererd by the thousands on CNN....yeah...ok...you peaceful weak minded "love thy brother" wussies sicken me.

Why do you have so much anger in you? Anger effects the judgement, you shouldn't hold onto it. I hope I am not being condesending, just trying to help my fellow human being, seriosuly. The fight back defense is this...we care for American's and so we want to protect our people...but why then do you turn around and call your fellow human a "wussie" and say that he "sickens me(you)" simply because he disagrees with you? It seems your judgement has anger is much it, IMO.

Once again, I really hope I have not offended you...


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The bible and War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #710938 - 06/29/02 11:02 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I just don't think that we can label all war-related deaths as "killing"--as opposed to "murder". A lot of very unjust wars are being waged. I think that's what people are talking about here.

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The bible and War [Re: TrOmAn]
    #710963 - 06/29/02 11:18 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I think you've slid pretty far down the slippery slope, trOmAn. I don't think most people who are critical of these wars are suggesting that we lay down like sheep and be slaughtered. Obviously we need to be able to defend ourselves, but the problem we see now is that it is a completely one-sided effort. A lot of people are wising up to the foolishness of reacting purely through the military. Why isn't there more effort to figure out what is causing the threats to our security?

If we continue our one-sided, surround-everybody-with-everything method, we'll only help create further threats. Which will create the need for more defense, and so on. Maybe there's no way out of it--we are a ship of fools, after all--but shouldn't we at least be trying? If we don't, then we shouldn't be so surprised when airplanes fly into buildings, or worse.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The bible and War [Re: hongomon]
    #710976 - 06/29/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Not all war realated deaths are killing, many are murder. Ever hear of thy My Lai massacre in 'Nam?

I have buddies that were in 'Nam and they'll sit around telling war stories sometimes. They are ghastly some of the things they did. The interrigation they did was torture and they'll say 'anyway he ended up dying' referring to someone they capured. Now besides stories like that there are some good war stories and battles that aren't murder. A lot really was though, executions and torture...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (06/29/02 11:27 AM)

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The bible and War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #710981 - 06/29/02 11:28 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

is amazing,, I got a friend from nam, a friend from the gulf, they both hated their positions there, one is a reformed chrisitian, the latter is a permanant meth head, but they are my friends, the stories they told. Anyways,, I hate to see people fall into the same trap.

My main point is that "retaliation" against afghanistan is in no way christian,, I hoped this proves to the public in general that bush has another agenda, which is not christian.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The bible and War [Re: hongomon]
    #712677 - 06/30/02 06:33 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

This is why the classical Gnostics came to believe that it was not the Good and transcendent Father-God of Jesus that created the world, but a lesser God whom they referred to as the Demiurge. Later, the Demiurge was pretty much equated with the Adversary of God - Satan. An entirely different creation account ensued - other than Genesis 1 or 2; and even the ''shining one' - the serpent - came to regarded as salvific. There is a painting of a crucified serpent which equate it with Wisdom and Christ, not with the Devil.

However, the distinction of the Gnostics between God and the Demiurge is an erroneous and false distinction. The Wrathful and Peaceful aspects of Yahweh are not unlike the wrathful and peaceful aspects of God in other theistic traditions such as Hinduism, in which benevolent and bloodthirsty manifestations of God - in both genders - are recognized. The contradiction is only resolved in a state of consciousness that transcends the rational mind, because the problem is insoluable in any amount of rational thought. Opposites find their unification in Oneness. The God of Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets. Jesus is the Heart of God, so-to-speak, not the Wrath of His Fiery Belly.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The bible and War [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #712897 - 06/30/02 09:45 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks MarkostheGnostic, as always a very interesting post. Have you read "Demian" by Herman Hesse? I recall it suggesting a similar God-Satan unity in the God Abraxas.

"The contradiction is only resolved in a state of consciousness that transcends the rational mind, because the problem is insoluable in any amount of rational thought."

I have approached this, I think. Considering my traditional Christian upbringing, in which a God-Satan unity is unspeakable, it was quite a revelatory moment. I would say I'm something of a pantheist, a post-modern Spinozan, maybe.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The bible and War [Re: hongomon]
    #713421 - 06/30/02 02:35 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks, yes, Abraxas is the god that Jung wrote about. The post-Jung Jungians, to which I belonged for some years, have attempted to create a new ethic based upon this unification of opposite. There is a book by Erich Neumann, a Jungian, entitled 'Depth Psychology and a New Ethic.' However, inasmuch as Isaiah 45 states that God "creates evil," and "God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all," nevertheless, 'out' of Him, there is quite a 'Shadow!' The Jungians say that the brighter the light, the darker the shadow. So, to the extent that God is good, creative, merciful - Satan is evil, destructive, mercilous. One must remember that Satan is an angel, a creation and not eternal or self-existent like the Zoroastrian or Manichean doctrine of Good and Evil - a personified yin-yang, each equal and opposite. Satan is therefore not an equal and opposite force, like 'The Force' is the modern day myth of Star Wars.

One might also consider that the evolution of the idea of Yahweh, from a kind of localized, 'volcanic' mountain deity, to more universal a Creator, is not the evolution of God, but the evolution of the Hebrew writers, which spanned millennia. Destruction and impermanence of life is the "all life is grass," mentality of the OT writer. Death is inevitable, howsoever cruel and horrible. Peace was a political-social construct for the tribes, not a psychological-spiritual one for the individual. The psychology of the NT is riddled with Greek ideas of immortality blended with Hebrew notions of the Eternal Life of Yahwe. Something interesting came of the hybrid. Still, the problem of evil (more than merely the imperfection of creation, or the absence of goodness), remains, the problem of evil.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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