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OfflineTrOmAn
shroom gladiator
Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 39
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
war&oil
    #706780 - 06/27/02 11:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

thats right folks, we need to sterilize the whole middle east including Israel...then I would only have to pay 75cents a gallon for gas.....wow


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Offlinemrfreedom
journeyman
Male
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 80
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
Re: war&oil [Re: TrOmAn]
    #706969 - 06/28/02 03:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Truly, our national interest in any Arab nation is what they have under the ground; any one who says other wise is a fool. With that said, our national interest now has become justice, retribution, revenge, self-defense.(you may choose your own word) And our new national interest is way more important than money, oil, or land.

It is time for grown men to act like grown men and if peace cannot be established by talking then by all means, do the dumbest thing any nation on this planet could do; engage the anger and fear of the United States by an unprovoked attack.

It is in no way an immoral act to respond to a deadly attack with deadly force; to disuade terrorists or their "landlords" from committing these acts or from harboring persons who would commit these brutal attacks. "There is no such thing as a fair in a fight involving death".

The one power that our constitution gives to the federal government and that I whole heartedly accept is, "defend our borders".
I have no wish to see our country thrust into a war in which we have no experience, I've been there, done that. I also have no wish to see another country decimated by the might of the United States military; death and war are ugly and affect everyone no matter how far you think you may be removed.
But, there are few options now, it is no longer a civil war contained within the confines of the "Arab Nations" it has come home to the borders of our country and it has cost lives of brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, cousins, husbands and wives. These are the people you work with, play with, love, and sometimes toke with. These are our neighbors and friends and the cost of killing them is the forfeiture of your life, and the accountability of those nations that would harbor these assasins.

I don't hate "them" because they are different or because they worship a different god than I. I don't hate them because they dislike our countrys involvement in their affairs, in fact, in this matter, I agree with them. Truth be told I don't hate them at all, I am disgusted, frightened, angry and hurt that my neighbors were killed by them.

I am willing to listen to their grievences as I hope that they are willing to listen to mine. I am not,however, willing to listen to anything at the end of a gun, not now, not ever. If one initiates violence then one has given up ones right to liberty and freedom, and, in the most aggregious case, your life as well.

Since when did defending ones self become a "wrong" act. "Two wrongs don't make a right"? My father once told me, long, long ago, "son, when confronted with the evil of violence smite them hip and thigh". My father, being of a religous background, and my being young at the time, led me to question his wisdom. When I asked the purpose of stiking an individual "hip and thigh" he relented and suggested that I strike them "BETWEEN the thighs", and even at a young age I could see the sense in this.
I'm afraid I don't see the sense in NOT striking at all; I will be just as dead and the offender will continue on to the next unaware person. I do hope that is not you.

I don't stand on a "soap box" and scream USA,USA,USA; I don't say to people "imagine the odacity of those idiots, to attack the United States". I don't beleive that the United States is forever removed from the rest of the world in our naivete', that we are immune from the pain and suffering of the world simply because we, as a nation, beleive in our "moral superiority". This is the height of huberious, and of ignorance.

I don't beleive that our nation's stance to "bring to justice those that perpetrated this monsterous deed and those who harbor them" is or should be one of hatred. Our stance is and should be one of outrage, pain beyond belief and the moral right to defend ourselves and our borders to the extent that all involved in terrorism shall say to each other "Imagine the odacity of those idiots, to attack the United States in that manner".

I don't hate, I don't beleive this nation hates, but if you attack my neighbor
I WILL KICK YOUR F@#KIN' BUTT BACK INTO THE STONE AGE.

And, if you beleive that we should turn the other cheek, then please stay the h^&ll out of my way.
------------------
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine



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OfflineChonger
Olive grower

Registered: 09/30/00
Posts: 551
Loc: England
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: war&oil [Re: mrfreedom]
    #706974 - 06/28/02 03:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I just think the US is taking advantage over the convenience of having a more acceptable motive of all the developments in the middle east (Ie, retribution, the war on terror etc, over the need for oil). This way, they'll probably end up striking a deal over the oil and people will just probably assume it was an unexpected bonus, but really was in the collective pool of considerations of all action going on out there.



--------------------
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have a frontal lobotomy


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: war&oil [Re: mrfreedom]
    #707317 - 06/28/02 09:10 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

what kind of religion was your father into? just curious, I have'nt studied one yet, that goes with those morals.


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Offlinemrfreedom
journeyman
Male
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 80
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
Re: war&oil [Re: Chonger]
    #708888 - 06/28/02 08:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I am afraid that I have become a bit short tempered of late and respond in less than admirable terms when the causes of war are brought into question without well reasoned arguments. It seems as if some people must simply put some one sentence/phrase together and post it; ad nauseum.

It was my intention to relieve the poster of the burden of having to resopond to my reply, by making that reply as simple and easy to understand as possible; looks like it worked.

There is something to be said for the unbeliveable happenstance of the WTC bombings and the "private" wants of a few powerful government officials and wealthy citizens, as to this there has been little thought or debate. To lump these, most probable immoral actions in with the generalization of "the US" is a great mistake I see being repeated over and over.

The US policy of intervention in other country's affairs is and continues to be, immoral, illegal (constitutionaly) and detrimental to citizens safety; as the bombing of the WTC shows. We, that is citizens, should seize upon this opportunity to further persuade our government officials to extricate themselves and us from further conflicts of this nature.

Nugs, I fail to see how you grasped the one, in my opinion, most irrelevant area of my preceding post, to question. The topic is oil and war, NOT religion and war. Being as I understand that you have not yet fully grasped rational debate and since I am in such a good mood right now; I'll answer the question as best I can.

The statement "strike them hip and thigh" is a hebrew expression as well as being contained in some badly translated historical biblical documents. This statment is not an all encompassing belief system and since I don't discuss religion with my father I don't know from what religion he may or may not have gleened it from. My opion is that it may have come from my great grandfather, an honorable man, well read and given to quotes of an historicaly vague nature; if I recall, I was pretty young when he died.

Ps. Nugs, this is not an attack on your person, just my tounge in cheek way of saying stay on topic please.

PPs. Nugs, as to your arguments skills, really, I mean this, I think you have shown vast improvement in some areas, namely the effort to support your arguments when pressed. I would suggest that you continue in this vien while committing yourself to further refining your ability to communicate in the written word.


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: war&oil [Re: mrfreedom]
    #709204 - 06/28/02 09:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

thanx, man, it was just years ago, I was talking in brief phrases, now I am novice debater,, I have really com far.


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OfflineTrOmAn
shroom gladiator
Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 39
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: war&oil [Re: TrOmAn]
    #710815 - 06/29/02 12:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

my point is simple and clear: christans vs. Muslims.....oil vs. the haves and the have nots....thats what this war, and terror attacks are all about, in the end christians will prevail...or we will nuke them, just like Japan..


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: war&oil [Re: TrOmAn]
    #710851 - 06/29/02 12:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If the Christians prevail, will they do it as Christians?


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