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Offlinejoekenorer
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Decline in American circumcisions?
    #7064116 - 06/19/07 01:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I believe this applies to all males on the shroomery.

SAN FRANCISCO - On the eighth day of her son's life, Julia Query welcomed friends and family to celebrate his birth and honor their Jewish heritage.
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But there was no crying, no scalpel, no blood, no "mohel" — the person who traditionally performs ritual circumcisions in the Jewish faith. In fact, Elijah Rose's "bris" differed markedly from the ceremony long used to initiate Jewish boys into a covenant with God: There was no circumcision.

"I knew before I was even pregnant that I would not circumcise," said Query, 39, a San Francisco filmmaker whose son was born in 2002. "It's not like you're just cutting a piece of paper off a pad — there's no `cut here' line. It's not made to be cut off, and I would never, ever do that to my baby."

Query is among a growing number of American parents refusing circumcision, in which the foreskin is removed from the penis.

According to a study by the National Health and Social Life Survey, the U.S. circumcision rate peaked at nearly 90 percent in the early 1960s but began dropping in the '70s. By 2004, the most recent year for which government figures are available, about 57 percent of all male newborns delivered in hospitals were circumcised. In some states, the rate is well below 50 percent.

Experts say immigration patterns play the biggest role in the decline, which is steepest in Western states with big populations from Asian and Latin American countries where circumcision is uncommon. The trend has also accompanied a change in Americans' attitudes toward medicine and their bodies.

"The rates of drug-free labor and breast-feeding all rose during the 1980s, while the initial declines in male circumcision rates began during the 1980s as well," said Katharine Barrett, an anthropology lecturer at Stanford University. "It may have been part and parcel of the wider effort to reclaim bodies — adult female and infant male — from unnecessary and potentially harmful medical interventions."

Circumcision remains the nation's most common surgery, and the United States is still one of the few developed countries where a majority of baby boys are circumcised. But circumcision is a heated issue and the subject of vehemently pro and anti Web sites.

"We were all circumcised when I was born," said R. Louis Schultz, a 79-year-old New Yorker and author of "Out in the Open: The Complete Male Pelvis." "People thought it could ward off masturbation or disease, and those funny attitudes have really changed. Now people are saying, `Why do it?'"

Many doctors still recommend circumcision because of some evidence that it reduces the risk of penile cancer, urinary tract infections,
HIV and perhaps other sexual transmitted diseases. Many major insurance companies still cover it, and many hospitals offer it free for newborns.

But circumcision opponents say the medical benefits are dubious. Penile cancer, for example, is extremely rare. Since 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics has not endorsed routine circumcision.

The debate escalated in February, when studies found that heterosexual men in Africa who were circumcised had HIV infection rates up to 60 percent lower than uncircumcised men. Because of those studies, the American Academy of Pediatrics is taking another look at its policy.

About one in three males worldwide is circumcised. In the United States, the rates vary widely by region.

It is most prevalent in the upper Midwest. In 2004, according to data compiled by the federal Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, more than 79 percent of newborn boys in the Midwest were circumcised before leaving the hospital. Michigan and Kentucky had the highest rates, at 85 percent.

In the fast-growing West, the rate declined dramatically — from 64 percent in 1979 to just under 32 percent in 2004.

In California, the rate of hospital circumcisions among newborns was 21 percent. California — which has more immigrants than any other state — had the lowest circumcision rate in the study, which had comprehensive data on only 27 states.

The decline coincides with rising immigration from Asia and Latin America.

"If you have a solid Victorian, American background, routine circumcision is not unusual," said Carol A. Miller, clinical professor of pediatrics at University of California at San Francisco.

Circumcision was uncommon in 35-year-old Usha Toland's family, which has roots in India, Sri Lanka and Malaysia. When her son, Reynick, was born in 2005 in San Francisco, her husband, Chris, a white man from Southern California, assumed his son would be circumcised. But after the couple read Web sites and medical literature, they decided against the surgery.

"Usha probably would have understood if I really wanted to have Reynick circumcised," said Chris, a 42-year-old advertising executive. "But ultimately I didn't want to bring pain to the child unnecessarily. We wanted to do things the way God or the universe meant them to be."

Many parents fear their boys would feel awkward in the locker room if they were not circumcised.

"I like the idea of him looking like his dad — that's the most important thing for me," said Denise Milito Stockwell, 40, an artist in Chicago who had her 15-month-old son, Harlan, circumcised. "It wasn't traumatic for him in any way. He came back from the event sleeping."

Circumcision is still common in many Jewish and Muslim communities.

Ruth Katz, 38, of San Francisco had both her sons circumcised at brises. She and her husband, Michael Rapaport, were astonished when the teacher in their birthing class described circumcision as "immoral" and "not consensual."

"The edict to have your son circumcised was the first covenant with God — the first challenge to being Jewish," said Katz, pursuing a master's degree in business administration. "I am a progressive person and think a lot about human rights issues, but I have never questioned this." ((((I found this interesting because despite me and my father and brothers all being circumcised, I chose to leave my two boys uncut. Not because of "immigration patterns" though))))


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My favorites are weeping willows, which aren't really weeping at all. They're very wispy, witty and will dance in the breeze with you. Nothing like a tree that wants to dance with you. Although it doesn't like its thin limbs being pulled at all, it absolutely LOVES it when you walk through them, letting them gently slide over your face and shoulders. If you're naked, the willow considers it to be sex. It will orgasm on your mind and you will blow dream chunks into outer space. All very fun until your neighbor sees you.                                    -The Joekenorer

Edited by joekenorer (06/19/07 01:05 AM)

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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7064144 - 06/19/07 01:20 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Every time I think about the fact that I was circumcised I get pissed off. My penis is not whole.

Not drug-related, but good post none the less.

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OfflineEraserhead
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7064245 - 06/19/07 02:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

uth Katz, 38, of San Francisco had both her sons circumcised at brises. She and her husband, Michael Rapaport, were astonished when the teacher in their birthing class described circumcision as "immoral" and "not consensual."




I agree, circumcisions are immoral, and non consensual. It should be against the law for parents to decide for their child. If the child wants circumcised why can't they choose to do so as a teenager/adult?
By the way, yes, I'm male and was violated.
My parents also tried to drown me as a child under the name "baptism"
If I wanted baptized, why can't I decide for myself, instead of being violated?
(yes, I know infant baptisms are just a sprinkling of "holy" water)


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OfflineShroomnibbler
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Eraserhead]
    #7064440 - 06/19/07 04:27 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I am glad that I still have my whole penis.

The foreskin is sensitive, it feels so much when having sex or receiving a blowjob, even when retracted.

Being circumcised also makes the head of your penis more rough, more insensitive, it´s like keratinised, rough like the palm of your hand...

People say the sensitivity is a bad thing, it makes you cum quicker. I don´t think uncircumcised men come quicker- thats more of a control thing, and determined by how much stimulation you´re used to, than anything else.

It is ugly when the foreskin is too long and it sticks out beyond the penis when flaccid. But I don´t have that.

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Offlineapfrommsp
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Shroomnibbler]
    #7064699 - 06/19/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I dont mind that I was circumcised... i am actually happy that it was done then and not later.


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"It's a joke. Greed and the desire to take drugs are two separate things. If you want to separate the two, the thing you do is make drugs legal. Accept the reality that people do want to change their consciousness, and make an effort to make safer, healthier drugs."

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7064763 - 06/19/07 07:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I was circumsized...and if I have a son, intend to have him circumsized as well.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7064767 - 06/19/07 07:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There was a gigantic thread about this about two months ago; the debate got pretty intense :lol:


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7064794 - 06/19/07 08:16 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Circumcision is child abuse.

What it does from a sexual point of view is remove entire branches of nerves involved in pleasure and sensation (in the foreskin) and it leads to desensitization of other important nerves in the glans.

Also, circumcision is a cosmetic surgical operation to a child's penis. How messed up is that?!

People can go "aww peniscancer hygiene bla bla bla" but fact of the matter is that Mother Nature put that sheath on there for a purpose. It belongs there.

To remove it in a so-called "preventive surgery" is madness. While the kid's being cut up anyway, why not remove his appendix and tonsils as well? :mad:

At the age where girls are allowed to get breast implants, boys can decide to have their penis sliced.
I don't think there will be many takers.

The practice of circumcision is only widespread because it it done to defenseless children. If you wait a good many years and leave it up to teens to decide for themselves - they have experienced how much fun a foreskin can be and will refuse it, unless it is part of their religion or a decision analogous to a Prince Albert piercing.


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OfflineCosmicFunGuy
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7064811 - 06/19/07 08:23 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
There was a gigantic thread about this about two months ago; the debate got pretty intense :lol:




here we go again.. at least it's in the wrong forum, maybe veggie will lock it before it gets too bad. :popcorn:


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♫ ♪ In the garden of many fields, there is no me or you. There is no right or wrong. There is no up or down. There is no black or white. Everyone is the plow man. Everyone is the seed. Everyone harvests and everyone yields. In the garden of many fields, everyone is one with one love and one love is one with everyone. ♪ ♫
lyrics from: Transglobal Underground - Eyeway Souljah (from Psychic Karaoke)

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #7064823 - 06/19/07 08:31 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Debate on controversial issues should be intense and full of spirit. It's one of the joys of forum posting, you don't want to read one bland post after the other no?

Hit the nitrous and floor the gas pedal! :grin:


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Asante]
    #7064831 - 06/19/07 08:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I disagree...a child is the responsibility of the parents until he is old enough to fend for him/herself....and if a parent decides that circumcision is the best course of action for the child, then that is their right to do so.

The idea of treating an infant with same the ideals as an adult is absurd...like it or not, as long as a child is dependant on it's parents, the parents get the final say.

...always has been that way...and with any luck...always will be that way.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7064855 - 06/19/07 08:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You know, if this thread were about female circumcision in Africa everyone would probably be saying, "wow, thats so messed up." But since this is about the still widely-practiced-in-America male circumcision some people see it as the parent's right to choose, and a healthy thing. Genital mutilation is genital mutilation, no matter what country it's done in to what gender.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7064856 - 06/19/07 08:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Like it or not, as long as a child is dependant on it's parents, the parents get the final say.




Not in matters of mutilation. As a parent you have no right to take your toddler and for instance extensively tattoo or pierce it. That isn't the course of western society. Western society is moving toward child rights.

Circumcision has consequences for the rest of that person's life. People feel mutilated and some even undergo foreskin reconstructive surgery to try restore what has been taken from them.

There's no justifiable reason for removing a healthy, functional, useful part of a child's body.


--------------------
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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Ziggen]
    #7064861 - 06/19/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You know, if this thread were about female circumcision in Africa everyone would probably be saying, "wow, thats so messed up." But since this is about the still widely-practiced-in-America male circumcision some people see it as the parent's right to choose, and a healthy thing. Genital mutilation is genital mutilation, no matter what country it's done in to what gender.





Good point. In some Islamic regions of Africa the same argument is made for "circumcizing" girls.


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Invisibledutchmushroom
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7064863 - 06/19/07 08:51 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
I disagree...a child is the responsibility of the parents until he is old enough to fend for him/herself....and if a parent decides that circumcision is the best course of action for the child, then that is their right to do so.

The idea of treating an infant with same the ideals as an adult is absurd...like it or not, as long as a child is dependant on it's parents, the parents get the final say.

...always has been that way...and with any luck...always will be that way.




yes thats right parents should have final say, but not on something like this,

becuase circumcision will still affect you even after your no longer being provided for by them, circumsizing your child would be like chopping off one of his fingers becuase you like the number 9 better then 10,

plus when your son is a teenager do you want him spending all of his money on the KY jelly (becuase i hear you need awhole lot of that to jack off when your circumsized)

ps. parents please stop fucking around with your kids genitelia
peace out Dm


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"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand says: don't you see? Gotta make it some how, on the dreams you still believe, Don't give it up, you've got an empty cup, only love can fill, only love can fill" < Grateful Dead!

The bus came by and I got on, and thats when it all began


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7064869 - 06/19/07 08:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

the decline in american circumcisions is the work of the DEVIL!


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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Asante]
    #7064874 - 06/19/07 08:55 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

what 'function' does a foreskin serve other than increasing the risk of STD's and generally being unhygenic? I seem to have gotten along fine without one.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7064898 - 06/19/07 09:07 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I seem to have gotten along fine without one.





But you don't know that. You would've gotten along fine with nine fingers also.

If you put your thumb on your glans and swiftly lift it, a shiver of sensation ought to run up your spine. Wearing underpants with your glans exposed should feel like torture. That's how sensitive a glans should be, and usually is when the foreskin is left on.

The glans is covered with a mucous membrane. After circumcision, it becomes kind-of like skin. The protective sheath is gone.

A lot of the pleasure of sex and wanking for the male lies in the motions of the foreskin and the friction it provides.

The foreskin are the labia of the penis.

You've done well without one, but Mother Nature intended you to have one. What you do with it when you can decide for yourself is your business.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Asante]
    #7064931 - 06/19/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Your comparsion of a foreskin to a finger is rediculous...a finger serves a purpose, a foreskin does not. I can provide SEVERAL studies that show the MANY benefits of removing the foreskin as an infant.

"Dr Edgar Schoen, Chairman of the 1989 Task Force on Circumcision of the American Academy of Pediatrics, has stated that the benefits of routine circumcision of newborns as a preventative health measure far exceed the risks of the procedure...Schoen points out that the association of lack of circumcision and urinary tract infection (UTI) has moved from "suggestive" to "conclusive" [312]. Moreover, this period heralded the finding of associations with other infectious agents, including HIV. In fact he goes on to say that "Current newborn circumcision may be considered a preventative health measure analogous to immunization in that side effects and complications are immediate and usually minor, but benefits accrue for a lifetime"

Some of the health benefits are:

-Decrease in physical problems involving a tight foreskin
-Lower incidence of inflammation of the head of the penis
-Reduced urinary tract infections.
-Fewer problems with erections, especially at puberty.
-Decrease in certain sexually transmitted infections (STIs) such as HIV, HPV, chlamydia, syphilis in the male and their partner(s).
-Almost complete elimination of invasive penile cancer.
Decrease in urological problems generally.

"Dr Tom Wiswell, a respected authority in the USA was a strong opponent, but then switched camps as a result of his own research findings and the findings of others. This is what he has to say: "As a pediatrician and neonatologist, I am a child advocate and try to do what is best for children. For many years I was an outspoken opponent of circumcision ... I have gradually changed my opinion" [389, 390]. This ability to keep an open mind on the issue and to make a sound judgement on the balance of all available information is to his credit ... he did change his mind!

Wiswell looked at the complication rates of having or not having circumcision performed in a study of 136,000 boys born in US army hospitals between 1980 and 1985. 100,000 were circumcised and 193 (0.19%) had complications, mostly minor, with no deaths, but of the 36,000 who were not circumcised the problems were more than ten-times higher and there were 2 deaths [397]. A study by others found that of the 11,000 circumcisions performed at New York's Sloane Hospital in 1989, only 6 led to complications, none of which were fatal [301]. An early survey saw only one death amongst 566,483 baby boys circumcised in New York between 1939 and 1951 [240]. (There are no deaths today from medical circumcisions in developed countries.)

Problems involving the penis are encountered relatively frequently in pediatric practice [204]. A retrospective study of boys aged 4 months to 12 years found uncircumcised boys exhibited significantly greater frequency of penile problems (14% vs 6%; P < 0.001) and medical visits for penile problems (10% vs 5%; P < 0.05) compared with those who were circumcised. In infants born in Washington State from 1987-96, 0.2% had a complication arising from their circumcision, i.e., 1 in every 476 circumcisions [65]. It was concluded that 6 urinary tract infections could be prevented for every circumcision complication, and 2 complications can be expected for every penile cancer prevented [65].Source






I could go on forever with facts and studies that show the obvious benefits of circumcision...can you provide any facts or studies that don't involve "the rights of the child"?

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065009 - 06/19/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

-Decrease in physical problems involving a tight foreskin
-Lower incidence of inflammation of the head of the penis
-Reduced urinary tract infections.

Teach a kid to clean their penis properly, there hardly ever will be problems with any of these. A child who habitually retracts his foreskin (when bathing, to wash his pecker) will not have a tight foreskin, rarely if ever glans inflammation or urinary tract infections.

-Fewer problems with erections, especially at puberty.

The problem presented here is the erections itself. Yes, your child will have fewer erections because the mutilation of his penis will render it less sensitive. Circumcised girls in Islamic Africa have far fewer problems with orgasms than uncircumcised girls.
Erections are not a bad thing. That a kid walks around all day with a boner may be an embarassment to parents, but its part of their development.

-Decrease in certain sexually transmitted infections (STIs) such as HIV, HPV, chlamydia, syphilis in the male and their partner(s).

In these times you have to exercise caution and take preventive measures against STDs. Once more, but now on the adult level: hygiene is called for, sexual hygiene in this case. None of these diseases are prevented, they just appear to be contracted less frequently. At the age sexuality kicks in kids should have sex education in place and when they become sexually active they can be offered circumcision for this reason. But most wouldn't want their penis cut, would they?

-Almost complete elimination of invasive penile cancer.

No. A threefold reduction of its occurrance, not an almost complete elimination of IPC.

I'd say let the kids gain sentience with age and then decide for themselves. Penis cancer and STD's are in almost all cases things they'll contract at an adult age, so let them decide whether they want it during their teenage years.


The foreskin protects the penis and allows it to maintain its sensitivity.

Here's a scientific study (2007) showing decrease in penile sensitivity in circumcised males

This study shows among other things that the most sensitive erogenous part of the penis it the edge of the foreskin in the uncut penis, and the circumcision scar in the cut penis. That scar is all that's left of a good and functional part of the male anatomy.

The foreskin is the male equivalent of the labia.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Asante]
    #7065077 - 06/19/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, your child will have fewer erections because the mutilation of his penis will render it less sensitive


Completely untrue...perhaps you misunderstood what you read...In other words..It meant that uncircumsized boys have MORE problems achieving erections. So much for your claim.



Quote:

Circumcised girls in Islamic Africa have far fewer problems with orgasms than uncircumcised girls




What a crock of shit...since when are orgasms considered a 'problem'...saying something like that completely invalidates anything else you say.

1)...Female circumcision often destroys the woman's capacity for sexual pleasure; male circumcision does not.

2) Parents routinely consent to operations on behalf of their minor children. Post-infancy circumcision is far more traumatic and expensive.

Quote:

The foreskin is the male equivalent of the labia.




"The chief evidence for this seems to be research by John Taylor. Dr. Taylor opposes circumcision, has not formally published his research, and is not a specialist in neurology. His remarks on the structure and purpose of the foreskin are highly conjectural and include such statements as, "We haven't done a strict quantitative study [but] to my mind [certain nerve endings] are rather more commonly found here in the prepuce than they are in the glans of the penis." It would be foolish on the basis of such work to make any definite statements about the foreskin's contribution to sexual sensitivity or anything else.

Quote:

In these times you have to exercise caution and take preventive measures against STDs.




I agree...and circumcision is an effective tool in the prevention of STD's

Quote:

No. A threefold reduction of its occurrance, not an almost complete elimination of IPC.




You are incorrect...Circumcision effectively prevents penile cancer. Of 60,000 cases since 1930, fewer than 10 have involved circumcised men.

your 'facts' have been weighed, measured and found lacking.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065097 - 06/19/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
what 'function' does a foreskin serve other than increasing the risk of STD's and generally being unhygenic? I seem to have gotten along fine without one.




Increasing STDs? If someone is worried about getting an STD, perhaps they should wear a condom if they're having sex with a prostitute or stranger. It's just completely stupid not to. Being circumcised isn't going to prevent it completely anyways... anyone with half a brain isn't going to take that chance, and will wear a condom.

Unhygenic? We live in a place in the world that has a thing called running water, or SHOWERS. You can use this to clean your body.

Plus, as you can probably guess, I'm not circumcised. I've never gotten an infection in my life. I never get a build up of smegma. I haven't even seen any smegma on my dick for probably months.

Let me tell you something. Once I decided to try having the head of my dick exposed all the time (just like being circumcised), which is easy to do, the foreskin can tuck easily behind the head.

Guess what happened? The sensitivity went to SHIT in a couple days. I tried having sex like this, and it almost wasn't even worth it. That's how much of a difference it was.

I just put my foreskin back over the head and the sensitivity eventually regained. Fuck, everyday I'm thankful my parents didn't have me circumcised, and I'm serious too.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065113 - 06/19/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The link between penile cancer and being uncircumcised is far from conclusive.

Penile Cancer and Circumcision

This article contains many citations to studies which refute your claims, as well as a statement from the American Cancer Society that circumcision is not recommended as a means to prevent penile cancer.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #7065116 - 06/19/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The whole sensitivity to sex is such a stupid, moot argument.

You can be uncut and say you are more sensitive.

I am cut and I can say I am more sensitive.

How can either of us prove the other one is wrong or right? It is literally just as stupid and endless a runaround argument as the argument that exists between those who whold a belief in a higher being and those who espouse atheism. There is no quantitative way to "prove" either side. It's just a foreskin pissing match.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065127 - 06/19/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

it is all about hygiene. if you keep your shit clean, it won't cause problems. i have my foreskin, so do my 3 brothers. we have never had any problems like you describe.

circumcision is a short-cut to hygiene. it makes it easier to clean the penis.

now come on, circumcision is like cutting your cheeks off to make brushing your teeth easier! it makes no sense, especially in modern times when hygiene is so easy.

Quote:

It meant that uncircumcised boys have MORE problems achieving erections. So much for your claim.




dude, this is the biggest pile of BULLSHIT i have ever seen! why would a protective sheath that maintains the sensitivity of the glans cause problems in achieving erections? i have never had a problem with that.

i think because you are circumcised you are depressed do to the fact that some very misguided people cut you in your infancy. this depression shows up as a vigorous argument supporting what was done to you. you see this all the time with child abusers. they were abused, so they abuse.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7065129 - 06/19/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
The whole sensitivity to sex is such a stupid, moot argument.

You can be uncut and say you are more sensitive.

I am cut and I can say I am more sensitive.

How can either of us prove the other one is wrong or right?




Once I decided to try having the head of my dick exposed all the time (just like being circumcised), which is easy to do, the foreskin can tuck easily behind the head.

Guess what happened? The sensitivity went to SHIT in a couple days. I tried having sex like this, and it almost wasn't even worth it. That's how much of a difference it was.


That pretty much proves it as far as I'm concerned. I just tested what it would be like to be circumcised, and the sensitivity and pleasure obviously went down. There's nothing anyone can say that will dispute this.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #7065132 - 06/19/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
The whole sensitivity to sex is such a stupid, moot argument.

You can be uncut and say you are more sensitive.

I am cut and I can say I am more sensitive.

How can either of us prove the other one is wrong or right?




Once I decided to try having the head of my dick exposed all the time (just like being circumcised), which is easy to do, the foreskin can tuck easily behind the head.

Guess what happened? The sensitivity went to SHIT in a couple days. I tried having sex like this, and it almost wasn't even worth it. That's how much of a difference it was.


That pretty much proves it as far as I'm concerned. I just tested what it would be like to be circumcised, and the sensitivity and pleasure obviously went down. There's nothing anyone can say that will dispute this.




It doesn't prove it because the baseline experience for you is having foreskin. The baseline experience for me is NOT having foreskin. You will never, ever have the experience of living your whole life without foreskin, and so you can never judge or quantify how pleasurable sex is or isn't for me.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7065140 - 06/19/07 10:46 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
The whole sensitivity to sex is such a stupid, moot argument.

You can be uncut and say you are more sensitive.

I am cut and I can say I am more sensitive.

How can either of us prove the other one is wrong or right?




Once I decided to try having the head of my dick exposed all the time (just like being circumcised), which is easy to do, the foreskin can tuck easily behind the head.

Guess what happened? The sensitivity went to SHIT in a couple days. I tried having sex like this, and it almost wasn't even worth it. That's how much of a difference it was.


That pretty much proves it as far as I'm concerned. I just tested what it would be like to be circumcised, and the sensitivity and pleasure obviously went down. There's nothing anyone can say that will dispute this.




It doesn't prove it because the baseline experience for you is having foreskin. The baseline experience for me is NOT having foreskin. You will never, ever have the experience of living your whole life without foreskin, and so you can never judge or quantify how pleasurable sex is or isn't for me.




So you think that magically the sensitivity would somehow increase the longer I left my bare head exposed to air and the rubbing of clothing? There's no possible way.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Shroomnibbler]
    #7065145 - 06/19/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomnibbler said:
Being circumcised also makes the head of your penis more rough, more insensitive, it´s like keratinised, rough like the palm of your hand...




...the head of my cock is not rough like the palm of my hand. in fact, it's rather soft.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7065150 - 06/19/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Aye, same here.

And HeavyToilet - I'm not even going to argue with you. You said it yourself that nothing anyone says is going to dispute your ideas for yourself, so what's the point of debating someone when they make a declaration like that?


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7065151 - 06/19/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If an usually high amount of friction is happening to part of the body, the body is going to make a callus there to counteract the friction.

It's a known biological fact.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #7065155 - 06/19/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Your biological facts do nothing to prove that experientially speaking, I have as pleasurable a sexual experience as anyone with a foreskin.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #7065158 - 06/19/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not aware of anyone that experiences a high amount of friction on the head of their penis unless they are jerking off with sandpaper.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7065165 - 06/19/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I haven't even seen any smegma on my dick for probably months.





But then again you haven't checked for months :blush:
j/k - you're right. With proper hygiene most of this aren't issues.


Quote:


The whole sensitivity to sex is such a stupid, moot argument.

You can be uncut and say you are more sensitive.

I am cut and I can say I am more sensitive.

How can either of us prove the other one is wrong or right?




The scientific study I linked has tested actual sensitivity, and it became clear that there is a significant difference. And hey, its entirely in line with common sense too.

An uncut penis is sheathed by a very soft fold of skin, while the cut penis is constantly subjected to the friction of underwear and dehydration of the mucous membrane on the glans.

Whatever part of your skin you subject to chronic friction will become less sensitive, as the nerves downregulate themselves. This is the same effect which produces drug tolerance and insensitivity to TV violence. Your body adapts to overstimulation or understimulation.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7065168 - 06/19/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


It doesn't prove it because the baseline experience for you is having foreskin. The baseline experience for me is NOT having foreskin. You will never, ever have the experience of living your whole life without foreskin, and so you can never judge or quantify how pleasurable sex is or isn't for me.




sorry man, but you too were born WITH a foreskin.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065169 - 06/19/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

i'm sorry, but this thread is really gay. well, it started out fine, but you sounds like a bunch of old ninnies arguing over spilt milk.


:nonono:


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7065170 - 06/19/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Your biological facts do nothing to prove that experientially speaking, I have as pleasurable a sexual experience as anyone with a foreskin.




HAHAHAHAH.

Well, it's easy to make up whatever answers you want to hear when you completely ignore science and medical facts I guess.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065184 - 06/19/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
I'm not aware of anyone that experiences a high amount of friction on the head of their penis unless they are jerking off with sandpaper.




I can see how a circumcised person would see this to be true.

But trust me, and everyone else who is uncircumcised, clothing is almost unbearably too rough to rub against for an uncircumcised glans.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #7065191 - 06/19/07 11:01 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Acidic_Sloth said:
i'm sorry, but this thread is really gay. well, it started out fine, but you sounds like a bunch of old ninnies arguing over spilt milk.


:nonono:




spilt milk? try spilt blood! and penis tissue :tongue:


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7065198 - 06/19/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

same fucking thing.

how about curdled milk? you can drink both and they are both chunky.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7065213 - 06/19/07 11:08 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

My only operation I got was a circumcision, I got it at age 7, I had to get it done for heath reasons.
I heard foreskin is pleasurable more to a woman..but what do I know?

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #7065223 - 06/19/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Acidic_Sloth said:
same fucking thing.

how about curdled milk? you can drink both and they are both chunky.




now curdled milk i can accept :laugh:

how about drinking a curdled milk and foreskin smoothy? sounds refreshing eh?


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7065227 - 06/19/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Mmm


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7065274 - 06/19/07 11:30 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

fuck yeah it does. makes me wish i had some curdled milk .. and some foreskin.

i never had a foreskin to begin with, otherwise i would chop off my own for smoothies. i feel fucking robbed!


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Skunk420]
    #7065334 - 06/19/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

skunk78395 said:
I heard foreskin is pleasurable more to a woman..but what do I know?




You know plenty. Those "Ribbed for Her Pleasure" condoms basically simulate the effect that a foreskin would have on a whole male.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Ziggen]
    #7065344 - 06/19/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

:yesnod:

personal opinion here ...


uncircumcised is better. again, personal opinion.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #7065348 - 06/19/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You must like the taste of smegma...:smirk:


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065360 - 06/19/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

actually, my ex kept his very clean and he never had a problem with smegma.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Acidic_Sloth]
    #7065365 - 06/19/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

so do you like the taste of smegma or not? inquiring minds want to know.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065378 - 06/19/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

i've never tasted it so i can't answer your question.

like i said, he kept it very clean.


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065598 - 06/19/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The penile hygiene issue is such a joke.  Vulvas get pretty funky if they are not cleaned, as do teeth, armpits, anuses, hair, ears, etc...

Justifying an unnecessary genital operation by claiming that it aids hygiene sounds so familiar...oh, I know!  It's how other cultures justify female genital mutilation!  :tongue:

My brother and both of my sons are uncircumcised, and they have never had any issues with infection and/or hygiene.  Taking regular baths is a reasonable solution to the difficult problem of keeping an intact sexual organ nice and clean.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7065625 - 06/19/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

let me put this simply...

Male circumcision and female circumcision are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT....this is just a common (and tiresome) shock tactic used to try and form an analogy between the two.

just because both involve surgery in the genital area, does not mean they are the same...You might as well compare male circumcision (which is harmless) to a hysterectomy.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065798 - 06/19/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Okey dokey, so you see no difference between one unnecessary genital operation and another.  :shrug:

I'm not claiming that they are the SAME, but that they are equally non-medical, non-recommended, and culturally endorsed.

Before you state flatly that male circumcision is harmless, you might want to look into the actual details of the operation.  There is no reason to put our infant boys through such an ordeal.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6768853

You might be justifying your choices by ignoring the facts. :shrug:

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065814 - 06/19/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Male circumcision and female circumcision are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT....this is just a common (and tiresome) shock tactic used to try and form an analogy between the two.




I agree with that: the severity of female circumsicion is much greater than the severity of a male circumscision; but the point is that a foreskin isn't something that's meant to be removed and it's not bad to not remove it and many people actually prefer to have it, so it's WRONG to impose circumscion on a person. Circumscioopns is like plastic surgery; you should wait until the person is old enough to decide whether or not they want to have their fuckin' foreskin rmeoved or not.

You have to accept the fact that a foreskin may be a desired thing and that you're being arbitrary by having it removed when the person's too young to consent.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7065901 - 06/19/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Okey dokey, so you see no difference between one unnecessary genital operation and another.  :shrug:





Male circumcision is harmless to the health of men while excision and infibulation are a true amputation of the female sexual organ which deprive women from pleasure and generates menstrual and sexual intercourse pains, problems during pregnancy and delivery,hemorrages and death. I've yet to hear of an instance where anything REMOTELY close to to death has occured from a male circumcision.

I am quite aware of the operation and it is usually done under local anesthetic...while I feel for the child in the video, it is nothing but propanda intended for shock value...with no actual scientific merit.

Babies also cry when they are born...should we abolish birth as well?


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7065917 - 06/19/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

As I said, they are not the SAME, but they are both cultural practices with no medical basis, and they both involve mutilating the genitals of a helpless child.

In order to actually numb the pain of circumcision, they would need to give the infant an overdose of pain medication.  The local anesthetic is also a fairly recent (1970's) innovation, as doctors claimed for years that infants had no capacity to feel pain.  :eek:

There is no scientific merit to circumcision, either, and the 1989 opinion from the American Pediatric Association which you posted earlier was entirely recanted in their 1999 statement.

It's a barbaric and outdated ritual, which I hope will see an end soon.

By comparison, I'd say that birth is fairly necessary, even unavoidable.  :wink:

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7068287 - 06/20/07 01:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Jesus fucking christ people, I didn't want to start an argument here. I am circumcised. I chose to leave my two sons uncircumcised. Not because I felt bad about it or thought it was an injustice, I just felt that since nature put it there, I'm going to leave it there. It is fact that the penis is not meant to be an external organ, its supposed to stay sheathed until ready to use or clean, just like any other penis toting creature of the earth. Its an internal organ. No, I don't believe circumcision decreases a mans sensitivity, I still tend to prematurely ejaculate, it happens. I have never seen an uncut penis up close, but I know its not a health risk, thats just fucking ridiculous. Keeping your cock clean shouldn't be a problem if you're cut or not. I damn well wash mine real good despite being circumcised. Arguing about the right to shave off your childs foreskin is stupid because it just leads to more stupid arguments about what you can and can't do to your children. Why can't you just wait until they're old enough to think about it themselves? If foreskin is so goddamned horrible I'm sure they'll slap theirs right on the chopping block as soon as they get the chance. I just thought it was an interesting article and figured someone else would too. Get over yourselves and your gay fucking links to some goddamn scientific study done by someone you've never even met to know if they have a tendency to lie or not. Thats really what pissed me off the most, people posting links "Heres the evidence, the proof, the undeniable fucking FACT that someone I never heard of did some study that I never witnessed to someone who I can't even legally be told the name of, some fucking where in the world". If you want to circumcise your child, do it. I don't resent my father for it, its just something fathers are prone to do. It doesn't hurt, doesn't cause recurring trauma (although I did have a weird dream about it once when I was a kid) and it aboslutely will not reduce sexual pleasure or performance in any way. I'm drained. Thank you.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7068758 - 06/20/07 06:21 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There isn't a fight going on - it's mere lively discussion.

Nobody's angry here, just mass debating :rainbowcloud:


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7068861 - 06/20/07 07:23 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joekenorer said:
Jesus fucking christ people, I didn't want to start an argument here.




Haha then you picked the wrong topic... I guess you weren't around for the previous (8 page) thread, but obviously people are pretty passionate about this one on both sides. I avoided the debate this time because I said all I have to say about it last time.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7068908 - 06/20/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You've got some anger issues you need to sort out dude...have you ever heard of a 'debate'?


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: joekenorer]
    #7068921 - 06/20/07 07:58 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

W_S said at the start of the thread:
Debate on controversial issues should be intense and full of spirit. It's one of the joys of forum posting, you don't want to read one bland post after the other no?

Hit the nitrous and floor the gas pedal!:grin:




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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7069180 - 06/20/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

oh come on rono... stop trying to defend your lack of a foreskin... you can find as many advantages to a foreskin as you can find disadvantages...

personally i am not circumcised and not baptized and am thankful for it... i will do the same with my children when the time comes... if they feel like they want to join a religion or want to lose their foreskin they can do their own research and undergo whatever process needed by their own choice... and to be honest i think no adult would go as far as having a circumcision done because he feels like it... there's a reason for the foreskin, nature is smarter than we are...


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: In(di)go]
    #7069782 - 06/20/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nature is smarter than we are..




Then kindly explain the purpose of nipples on men.  :wink:


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7069801 - 06/20/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Good one.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7069925 - 06/20/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

All fetuses are female until/unless they are exposed to testosterone, thus all fetuses form nipples.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7069934 - 06/20/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
All fetuses are female until/unless they are exposed to testosterone, thus all fetuses form nipples.




Oh god I'm a transsexual and didn't even know it!  :awesome:


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7070035 - 06/20/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
All fetuses are female until/unless they are exposed to testosterone, thus all fetuses form nipples.




then if male nipples nipples are vestigial...why are they full-sized and fully equipped with blood vessels, nerves, and all the usual signs of functioning organs?


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070084 - 06/20/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
then if male nipples nipples are vestigial...why are they full-sized and fully equipped with blood vessels, nerves, and all the usual signs of functioning organs?




Females have much nicer nipples if you ask me :smirk:


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070108 - 06/20/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

They are not sexual characteristics. In females, the existing "equipment" is activated by estrogen and prolactin. In males, it is not . All fetuses grow nipples, in the same way that they grow ears, arms, fingernails, etc.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070265 - 06/20/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Is it being suggested that all male babies should have their nipples removed at the same time as circumcision. There is, after all, an infinitesimal rate of male breast cancer that could possibly be prevented this way. And besides, my nipples are a bitch to clean anyway. Goddamn my parents! Why couldn't they have had the sense to lop off my nipples when I was but a baby.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Ziggen]
    #7070281 - 06/20/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ziggen said:
Is it being suggested that all male babies should have their nipples removed at the same time as circumcision.  There is, after all, an infinitesimal rate of male breast cancer that could possibly be prevented this way.  And besides, my nipples are a bitch to clean anyway.  Goddamn my parents!  Why couldn't they have had the sense to lop off my nipples when I was but a baby.




:congrats:


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7070310 - 06/20/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

:congrats:

His "nipples argument" backfired on him!


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070315 - 06/20/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
I was circumsized...and if I have a son, intend to have him circumsized as well.




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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7070351 - 06/20/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JunkFood said:
:congrats:

His "nipples argument" backfired on him!




ummm...okay...actually it wasn't an argument...it was just a joking comment made to my friend indigo...hence the ";)"  sheesh.

And at no point was I suggesting that male nipples be removed...good lord.

I am merely saying that if you like your foreskin...fine...don't have your boy circumsized, it won't affect me one way or the other...but don't try to feed me crap about how male circumcision is mutilation, when I have provided ample examples of why it is beneficial...yet have been provided nothing to the contrary other than touchy feely, subjective propaganda.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070368 - 06/20/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Nipple removal is a perfect analogy for circumscision--it even fits the definition (to cut around)!


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7070407 - 06/20/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If you say so...

If you decide to cut off your nipples, you are more than welcome to do so.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070427 - 06/20/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You can't argue that circumscison is just. A foreskin is a choice; there's benefits to not having one (mostly aesthetic--and I'm not necessarily saying uncircumsized cocks look nicer; it's a preference) and there's benefits to having one. It's downright wrong to impose this operation on your children. If a person decides he wants to be circumsized later on in life he can go and get a circumscision--like getting plastic surgery.

You have to take into consideration: what if your son comes up to you 15 years later and says "Dad I wish I wasn't circumsized".


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7070489 - 06/20/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Parents routinely consent to operations on behalf of their children...that's up to the parents...not you...Post-infancy circumcision is far more traumatic and expensive.

Like I said...if you don't want to circumsize your kid...don't.

I fully intend to.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070545 - 06/20/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, but consenting to something like an appendectomy (an appropriate example I think, given that the appendix and the foreskin are both supposedly useless body-parts), where there is an obvious, and often immediate benefit to the health of a child, is different than consenting to a largely cosmetic procedure to be performed on a child who can't even voice their opinion, let alone make a reasoned judgment as to whether or not the want the procedure in the first place.
It is more akin to giving a two-year old girl breast implants.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070571 - 06/20/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
then if male nipples nipples are vestigial...why are they full-sized and fully equipped with blood vessels, nerves, and all the usual signs of functioning organs?




I might ask the same about foreskin.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Ziggen]
    #7070598 - 06/20/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Jeez, I hate to make three posts in a row, but something else just occurred to me.

Many of the same people who circumcise their children, are outraged by the docking of a dog's tail and ears. Hypocrisy.

Oh, and this is not directed at you Rono. I don't know how you feel about this practice on dogs. I'm not calling you personally a hypocrite (Though you might be. I'm not saying you're not a hypocrite either. I just don't know.).

I'm actually in favor of docking dogs tails and ears in certain circumstances. For example, if you're actually going to hunt with a dog, it's a good thing, because a hunting dog with floppy ears and a long tail is likely to get it tangled up in briers and thorns, causing them to get cut up, possibly leading to infection and death. For a normal house pet though it's not a good thing.


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7070777 - 06/20/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

when I have provided ample examples of why it is beneficial...yet have been provided nothing to the contrary other than touchy feely, subjective propaganda.





You have provided outdated examples, all of which have been disproven through more-accurate research.  You were provided with multiple scientific citations in the link I posted, and obviously either did not bother to read them, or do not want to acknowledge the facts regarding this issue.

You will have to make your own decision when/if the time comes that you must authorize a circumcision for your own son.  I hope that you will actually review the research prior to that day. :sad:

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7071151 - 06/20/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You will have to make your own decision when/if the time comes that you must authorize a circumcision for your own son. I hope that you will actually review the research prior to that day




back at ya...


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074195 - 06/21/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I've already made my decision, and based it upon a thorough review of current research.  I chose NOT to have a doctor attach a metal clamp to my sons' penises, then tear the sensitive adhesions between the foreskin and glans, finally cutting through nerve-rich erogenous tissue to remove an integral part of their sexual anatomy.

I would not want that done to someone I despise, much less to someone I deeply love and have sworn to nurture and protect.  :sad:

Do you consider official position statements from the American Pediatric Association AND the American Cancer Society to be "touchy feely propaganda"?  :rolleyes:  C'mon, one of us is ignoring the facts here, and it's not me.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7074398 - 06/21/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not ignoring anything...

The Official statement of the American Pediatric Association is... "Circumcision is not essential to a (boy's) well-being at birth, even though it does have some potential medical benefits"

Which is exactly what I've been saying from the start...



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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074439 - 06/21/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Here's the full text of the statement:

Quote:

Circumcision is not essential to a child’s well-being at birth, even though it does have some potential medical benefits. These benefits are not compelling enough to warrant the AAP to recommend routine newborn circumcision. Instead, we encourage parents to discuss the benefits and risks of circumcision with their pediatrician, and then make an informed decision about what is in the best interest of their child.




And an brief article on their website regarding why the benefits are not compelling enough:

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/archives/marcircum.htm

The only statistically significant medical benefit listed in this artile regards penile cancer risk, and this has been called into question by recent research, as evidenced by this letter to the American Academy of Pediatrics from the American Cancer Society:

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/letters/1996-02_ACS/

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7074451 - 06/21/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Okay...they still don't recommend NOT circumcising. :snub:

Not recommending doing something is not the same as recommending not doing something.


--------------------
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7074456 - 06/21/07 10:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

They wouldn't want to infringe upon someone's right to mutilate their child for religious reasons.  :tongue:  Unless the child is a girl, that is.  We don't do those sorts of things in AMERICA.  :eek:

Edited by Veritas (06/21/07 10:05 AM)

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7074468 - 06/21/07 10:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

They don't have the right to infringe on anything. They only have the right to make recommendations. Last time I checked they weren't a legislative body.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7074475 - 06/21/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, but all the mainstream national organizations tiptoe around religious practices.  They can't outlaw it, but they can stop recommending it, and expose the "medical benefit" propaganda.  That's a great start.  :thumbup:

Here's an excellent Wiki article:

History of Male Circumcision

I didn't know that circumcision rates in the UK fell to around 1% after the NHS stopped paying for the operation, nor that Canada had followed suit & reduced their rate to around 11%.  Most U.S. states are still paying for the operation through Medicaid, but there is a trend to drop it from coverage.  :smile:

Edited by Veritas (06/21/07 10:19 AM)

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7074529 - 06/21/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So then...using your own sources (Your personal interpretation not withstanding)...it's still a matter of choice of the parents.

"Major medical organizations in the United States and Canada now say that parents should decide what is in their child's best interests, declining to make a recommendation one way or another"


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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074546 - 06/21/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
So then...using your own sources (Your personal interpretation not withstanding)...it's still a matter of choice of the parents.

"Major medical organizations in the United States and Canada now say that parents should decide what is in their child's best interests, declining to make a recommendation one way or another"




Exactly...she is just pushing her personal agenda, and she wants major American medical associations to push it along with her, rather than leaving decisions up to individuals.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074550 - 06/21/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, as of now it is legal for parents to authorize the non-therapeutic mutilation of their son's penis.  :tongue:

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7074565 - 06/21/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

good enough for me...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7074579 - 06/21/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
she is just pushing her personal agenda, and she wants major American medical associations to push it along with her, rather than leaving decisions up to individuals.




The decision should be left up to the individuals. Not the fathers who figure it should be done because it "looks better" and because it was done to them.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #7074584 - 06/21/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I never mentioned once how it looks...those who oppose circumcision are the ones that keep saying it looks better. (Which says alot in itself..jealous much?)

I simply mentioned hygene and health related reasons.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7074592 - 06/21/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Quote:

Rono said:
So then...using your own sources (Your personal interpretation not withstanding)...it's still a matter of choice of the parents.

"Major medical organizations in the United States and Canada now say that parents should decide what is in their child's best interests, declining to make a recommendation one way or another"




Exactly...she is just pushing her personal agenda, and she wants major American medical associations to push it along with her, rather than leaving decisions up to individuals.




I would be glad to leave the decision up to the individuals. My objection is to taking the decision away from the individuals. Any legal adult who chooses to have his foreskin removed should have this option, though doctors should not be required to perform non-therapeutic circumcisions.

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074594 - 06/21/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Jealous? I pitty those that were circumcised. Fuck, my girlfriend always tells me how glad she is my dick wasn't mutilated.

I can't believe shit like that still happens. The rates are declining, and soon it will be a thing of the past. By the time you have a son he'll probably be made fun of in school for not having his whole penis.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #7074612 - 06/21/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Good for your girlfriend....most women think otherwise. (although I barely care)


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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OfflineJunkFood
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074883 - 06/21/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Although circumsized cocks tend to look nicer, I wouldn't trade off sensation for looks--just like I wouldn't wear uncomforatble clothing just because it looked good.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7074903 - 06/21/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I can't say that I've had an issue with lack of sensation...in fact, I enjoy sex very much.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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OfflineJunkFood
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074923 - 06/21/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You don't know what you're missing, duh. Obviously if a circumsized cock is the only cock you've ever known then you're not gonna have a problem. But alas, ignorance is bliss :shrug:


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7074935 - 06/21/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I could say the same to you...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074948 - 06/21/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
I could say the same to you...




Yeah...they don't seem to understand that at all.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7074968 - 06/21/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

How could he say the same to me? That circumscision causes desensitization is a fact--desensitization is a commonly recognized phenomenon.


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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7074999 - 06/21/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
what 'function' does a foreskin serve other than increasing the risk of STD's and generally being unhygenic? I seem to have gotten along fine without one.




There are erotogenic nerve ending in the foreskin,10,000 to 20,000. And the frenulum is a specialized sex tissue which doesnt take any science to tell me it's the male g-spot on my penis.Even though there is research backing it.There are also Estrogen receptors on the foreskin that researchers don't know what they are for. Pheromone producing glands.Gliding action for her pleasure.

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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7075036 - 06/21/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Good for your girlfriend....most women think otherwise. (although I barely care)




The majority of women who come of age in countries where uncircumcised penises are the norm prefer them, and vice versa.  It is about what you are used to.

The girls in my younger son's generation, in our region of the U.S. (West Coast), will likely prefer uncircumcised penises, as only 20% of boys will be circumcised.

I grew up around uncircumcised penises, and was shocked and somewhat appalled by my first sight of a cut penis.  :eek:  I got used to it, but still prefer unmutilated male genitals.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Veritas]
    #7075242 - 06/21/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

My family is proud of our desensitized, mutilated penises.


--------------------
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OfflineJunkFood
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7075276 - 06/21/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

And I'm sure serial killers are too.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: JunkFood]
    #7075284 - 06/21/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes...serial killers are also proud of my family's penises.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7076625 - 06/21/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
good enough for me...




I suggest a vasectomy Rono.

If I had a son and loved him I wouldn't take any chance however small that mutilating his genitals might cause him emotional trauma at a time when trust issues are of utmost importance.

If I didn't give a shit like most ignorant parents and was completely self absorbed and insecure about my manhood I wouldn't care and just go do it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: Rono]
    #7076924 - 06/21/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
My family is proud of our desensitized, mutilated penises.




:rofl:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Offlinejoekenorer
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7078076 - 06/22/07 12:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

lol, I can't believe this thread is still going. Wow. And I also can't believe you're all still trying to convince the other person to think what you think. You actually believe this is going to happen? lol, who do you think is actually going to concede to the other ones beliefs? Might as well agree to disagree.


--------------------
My favorites are weeping willows, which aren't really weeping at all. They're very wispy, witty and will dance in the breeze with you. Nothing like a tree that wants to dance with you. Although it doesn't like its thin limbs being pulled at all, it absolutely LOVES it when you walk through them, letting them gently slide over your face and shoulders. If you're naked, the willow considers it to be sex. It will orgasm on your mind and you will blow dream chunks into outer space. All very fun until your neighbor sees you.                                    -The Joekenorer

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InvisiblePJDIDDLE
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? *DELETED* [Re: joekenorer]
    #7078098 - 06/22/07 12:39 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Script

Reason for deletion: .


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Offlinechubbycharley
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Re: Decline in American circumcisions? [Re: PJDIDDLE]
    #7078167 - 06/22/07 01:07 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yes...serial killers are also proud of my family's penises.




:lol:

Quote:


I can’t wait for the day when the pub can go a month span without a 10 page Circumcision thread.




way to jinx it, you idiot :laugh:


--------------------
if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me :smile:

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