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Droz
Love of Life
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Emotions
#7057438 - 06/17/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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What exactly are emotions? I know they are these feelings that you get when you are with a girl/guy that you start to fall for. But what exactly are they and how do they control us? It's like emotions are a downside to human life for it makes you weak in the knees.
If I could i'd ignore all my emotions so that my emotions cannot control me. Love is powerful, but makes a man weak.
Peace, Droz
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7057513 - 06/17/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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How exactly does love make you weak?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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KingKush
Mycelium
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hmm. What are emotions, you ask ?
Well They are feeling that affect the sub-concious a little bit more. They come with thought's, that are often misleading
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Droz
Love of Life
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Re: Emotions [Re: KingKush]
#7057593 - 06/17/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip - Most relationships lead to heartache, most! Then there are that select few that work out. Instead of being weak because you feel love towards someone be strong and have a more open relationship. One that doesn't involve the "I love you" and "let's get married" when it makes the heart weak.
Peace, Droz
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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daytripper23
?
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Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7057621 - 06/17/07 03:56 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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love pretty much leads to attatchment in my book
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7057639 - 06/17/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think the weakness you're talking abut comes from our own inside conflicts and confusions, which are prior to feeling love. Love is a state which requires opening up and if we're in a state where we're lying to ourselves or are in fear, that's what we show when we open up. It's like saying that acid gives you bad trips. It doesn't. It's your own mind who does that, for specific reasons.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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daytripper23
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Loc:
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: It's like saying that acid gives you bad trips. It doesn't. It's your own mind who does that, for specific reasons.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Yeah, love isn't a weakness; its empowering. Love is transformative (if that is even a word ), and immersing oneself within it evolves one's understanding and awareness of their experience of reality. Its a higher level of consciousness than one centered around power, or sensation, or security. It essentially encompasses all of those levels of consciousness and keeps them in balance, focused around what is really important in life - a loving, peaceful experience of life, typically shared with another that is perfect for you in every way.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Droz
Love of Life
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All i get is heartache after i fall in love, i get jealous, afraid and hurt. Then when the relationship is over i'm stuck with a weakened heart.
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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Williamsii
Explorer
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 349
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Emotions are simply part of the human condition, for better or worse.
However, being disconnected from emotions is a lot worse. Without emotion there can be no compassion. Soldiers who have desensitized themselves as a coping mechanism are also capable of horrific acts.
I think the weakness you are talking about is more about lack of control as you generally can't control your emotions. Like a trip, don't try and control just let go and let it flow through you. This can help you feel more at peace. Yes relationships can cause a lot of pain, I know, but they also induce deep happiness. Try and get in touch with you emotions, accept them, don't see them as an enemy that makes you weak. They are part of you and should be embraced.
Then again, everyone is different so try and figure it out for yourself so that it makes sense for you.
Quote:
what exactly are they and how do they control us?
Well they are chemical changes in the brain and body that stimulate nueroactivity and body reactions. A lot of emotional reactions are based in the second largest collection of nerve endings in your body, the solar plexus at the base of your spine(i don't know if this is a scientific label) which gives you those feelings in the pit of your stomach.
Whether emotions are something more is an open question but that is how we think they control us anyway.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7057762 - 06/17/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: All i get is heartache after i fall in love, i get jealous, afraid and hurt. Then when the relationship is over i'm stuck with a weakened heart.
Jealousy comes from your own uncertainties, not from the love itself. I think that first of all you should analyze why exactly do you feel jealous? Is it a low self esteem? Is it the fact that maybe you were cheated in the past? Is it that you generally don't trust people? Could be lots of "reasons". So find out yours and then fix it Could be social programming. I mean, it could be the fact that you see and hear people talking that showing your emotions is a sign of weakness and then you do that because you're under the (wrong) impression that love make you weak. It doesn't, it you who are making yourself weak.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7057893 - 06/17/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: Most relationships lead to heartache, most!
Is it relationships that lead to heartache, or our inaccurate assumptions and expectations that cause our pain when they go unfulfilled?
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7060895 - 06/18/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey Droz,
that sounds like conditional love. Look where you make yourself dependent on your lover, then you will see, where MT's and NN's analysis head
The only danger of unconditional love is, that your partner will become jeleaus, because you never can stop flirting with other girls even if you promise to stay with your partner (of course)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: The only danger of unconditional love is, that your partner will become jeleaus, because you never can stop flirting with other girls even if you promise to stay with your partner (of course)
Unconditional love implies that one will flirt with other individuals?
Sounds like horrible rationalization, to me. "Oh, its unconditional love why I divert attention from you to flirt with other women" Do you find yourself broke because you give all your money to everyone around you and say its because you love everyone unconditionally?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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It's not that I eat too much, it's that I love all food unconditionally!
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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I am a professional actor, I have spent the past twenty-one years studying human emotions... and how to create them, for an audience... on command. No, I am not a doctor... but, I certainly do know a thing or two about emotions.
Love is just ONE emotion... there are several others... but not as many as one might think.
We feel emotion when our previous experiences set off warnings in our brain. We also, feel emotion when our experiences have not prepared us for what is currently happening.
Emotional triggers release chemicals into our brain... and those chemicals are what we FEEL, when we feel emotional.
We do choose to feel emotions... what happens next though, is mostly out of our control. Let's say you choose to fall in love with someone...
The emotion of love releases large amounts of Serotonin into the brain... just like a HEAVY drug (like say... an opiate) would. This causes a person, who is "In love". To feel euphoria... but it also causes them to act a little crazy. This means, people who are "In love" are not always the best lovers... and if the feeling isn't mutual... the person who is, "In love" is left vulnerable to heartbreak. Heartbreak leaves the lover craving for more of the source of that euphoric Serotonin... like an addict, who has been cut off from their source of crack.
No, it isn't very romantic... but it is true.
Here's the definition of, "Emotion".
e·mo·tion (-mshn) n. 1. A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling: the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love. 2. A state of mental agitation or disturbance: spoke unsteadily in a voice that betrayed his emotion. See Synonyms at feeling. 3. The part of the consciousness that involves feeling; sensibility: "The very essence of literature is the war between emotion and intellect" Isaac Bashevis Singer.
[French émotion, from Old French, from esmovoir, to excite, from Vulgar Latin *exmovre : Latin ex-, ex- + Latin movre, to move; see meu- in Indo-European roots.]
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062041 - 06/18/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
This means, people who are "In love" are not always the best lovers... and if the feeling isn't mutual... the person who is, "In love" is left vulnerable to heartbreak. Heartbreak leaves the lover craving for more of the source of that euphoric Serotonin... like an addict, who has been cut off from their source.
If the love isn't mutual then it wasn't real love in the first place. Also people feel jealousy for the reasons I specified earlier. When we lie to ourselves, when we're in denial, we can not think straight and then when we happen to fall in love we behave in an even more chaotic way.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: If the love isn't mutual then it wasn't real love in the first place.
Love is an emotion... no emotion requires TWO people to feel it, before it becomes real.
English is very limited when it comes to love... most languages use several nuanced words to describe different degrees of love. However... since we are stuck with just the one word... I will stand by my previous statement.
I love many things which are incapable of loving me back... nature... theatre... great video games...
The love is real.
I have loved many women, who never returned the emotion.
The love was real.
I have had women love me, and I could not return the feeling.
The love was real.
I have loved people while on stage.
The love was real.
If you feel it, and it is an emotion... it is real.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062095 - 06/18/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, but did you also felt jealousy? And if you did, what were the reasons? As in your own mental process, step by step, which led you to feel jealousy. See, in my opinion, love has nothing to do with jealousy and if they happen in the same time it's incidental. They're not symbiotic.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Love is ONE emotion. You can feel OTHER emotions while feeling LOVE.
The play, "Othello" is a play about real love, and jealousy. In that play, the love was real... but jealousy got in the way... and we end up with two dead lovers... Othello and Desdemona.
Shakespeare didn't pull that plot out of his ass, he saw that sort of thing happen ALL THE TIME.
You can be in love, and AFRAID.
You can be in love, and feel JOY.
You can feel love AND jealousy at the same time. Serontonin makes one vulnerable to paranoia... and paranoia can lead to jealousy. It is a simple chemical reaction. Love is very much like being high... and love can easily lead you to a paranoid state.
Many young adults see the world the way you do... but by seeing the world in that light, you are also, redefining the words, "Emotion" and, "Love".
If we can't agree about what words mean, how can we have a discussion?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/18/07 03:54 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062209 - 06/18/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm sorry, but love isn't serotonin, it does not lie dependent upon any chemical composition to exist, and it isn't an emotion, but a level of consciousness, a state of being.
Maybe you should stop using the word "love" altogether and start using the word "infatuation"? Then your posts would make perfect sense.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062232 - 06/18/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Love is ONE emotion. You can feel OTHER emotions while feeling LOVE.
No. Love is a state of being. It's a higher level of awareness and sentience. Fear is on the other pole. They do define each other but they're being on different levels.
Quote:
The play, "Othello" is a play about real love, and jealousy. In that play, the love was real... but jealousy got in the way... and we and up with two dead lovers... Othello and Desdemona.
Shakespeare didn't pull that plot out of his ass, he saw that sort of thing happen ALL THE TIME.
Hmm playing is different than directly experiencing, even though you van set your mind so great that you can actually believe that you're feeling love. You can have strong emotions by looking at a picture with a field filled with flowers, but it's not the same as actually being there, smelling the flowers and touching them.
Quote:
You can be in love, and AFRAID.
You can be in love, and feel JOY.
You can feel love AND jealousy at the same time.
I think we really must be able to make the difference between plain attraction and love. Love is about making a connection on a very deep level with another person. When two people get that connection they know each other, they feel each other and reveal their true selves. This love, this connection and constant exchange of information and feelings leaves no room for doubt or fear, it's a logical contradiction if you like. That feeling of safety and unconditional love can't make one feel fear, this is something pretty obvious.
Quote:
Many young adults see the world the way you do... but by seeing the world in that light, you are also, redefining the words, "Emotion" and, "Love".
If we can't agree about what words mean, how can we have a discussion?
How exactly am I redefining words? And even if I do (which I am sure I am not but anyways ), maybe those words need to be redefined, it also has so very much to do with philosophy because it relates for the constant searching for the ideal, for the best method/meaning/function.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Oh... you lovers...
You're BOTH wrong.
Fireworks: I never said love IS serotinin. I said love triggers a release OF serotonin. True.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_(scientific_views)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,993160,00.html
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062259 - 06/18/07 04:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: You can be in love, and AFRAID.
You can be in love, and feel JOY.
No, you cannot. Well, joy is pretty much a natural expression of love, but fear is an obstruction of the experience of love. As previously stated, love is a level of consciousness, and fear is the result of thought processes that obstruct our ability to be centered within that level of consciousness. We fear when our sense of security is threatened. Its hard to experience life centered in the level of consciousness of love when one is still attached to the security level of consciousness.
Maybe you should review the definitions of the words "love" and "infatuation" before you accuse others of misusing the words?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062262 - 06/18/07 04:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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So... the theorist knows better than the experiencer, huh?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Maybe you should review the definitions of the words "love" and "infatuation" before you accuse others of misusing the words?
And perhaps you should read the links I posted to the science, concerning the emotion of love, before protecting your girl... in an act of lover's passion.
FG, you are proving my point FOR me.
Now go, read my links. I am not making this up. I am not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, either.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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DrCamacho89
Mazel Tuff
Registered: 03/12/07
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7062289 - 06/18/07 04:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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The reason you feel weak is you feel regretful of allowing yourself to be hurt so While you think it is "weakening" your heart, it is indeed making it stronger. Every time we introduce ourselves to new, exciting emotions, and make ourselves vulnerable to someone wrongdoing us, even if they do it unconsciously, it is going to be hurtful at times.
I have come to this understanding in my months now of being away from a woman I love dearly and see a brilliant future with that had been clouded up with what seemed like a line of hurricanes of problems and road bumps, and I no longer could see the end game. That being said, the arguments (difference of opinion, opening others eyes to new things), and worry (whatever pre-occupied phobia that we all have personally when it comes to relationships) may just be a part of what a long term relationship is about. If you ask an old 90 year old couple if everything was a straight line, hunky dory, smiling always good time, they would probably say "hell no, but we made it through and we had some good laughs." But the important thing to make sure to keep in your mind is to treat your partner with respect and deep underlying sense of caring, even when you're judging them indirectly about a bad habit of theres.
Perhaps we have all become too sensitive?
-------------------- "The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"
Edited by DrCamacho89 (06/18/07 04:31 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062311 - 06/18/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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And isn't it true that you said that you can shape your feelings at your Will? You should know better since you're an actor If so, isn't that our AWARENESS, Will, make that chemical release happen? When we acknowledge love, we choose to get ourselves immersed in it and decide to be absorbed in that state. It is only chemical if you decide to look at it only from a chemical POV. As well as this world is only material if you decide to look at it from a material aspect. From the moment we decide to take responsibility for our feelings we can't say that they are dependent on things we can not control, it's a contradiction
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062315 - 06/18/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: I am not making this up. I am not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, either.
All you are doing is turning this into a personalized discussion, which lies at odds with the purpose and intention of this forum. I see no reason why I (or anyone) should engage in discussion of ideas and be subsequently subjected to comments such as these in a forum that is specifically intended for the discussion of ideas, and not the personal nature of those presenting them.
With that said, I will now recreate my reply I was working on before it crashed...
Quote:
You're BOTH wrong.
Well, as much as I love being served judgement, I'd tend to expect some demonstration as to the nature of my being wrong, if I am to lend any credence to said judgement. Without engaging in discussion regarding the perspectives I've presented, which is the spirit in which I engaged your perspective on the matter, your conclusion is unsubstantiated, effectively worthless.
Quote:
Fireworks: I never said love IS serotinin. I said love triggers a release OF serotonin. True.
I never stated that you said love is serotonin; I stated that love is not serotonin. Perhaps you could expand upon how you have related the subject matter with the presence of specific chemicals? You said love triggers a release of serotonin (your usage of the word is very ambigious in consideration of the context in which you've placed it, and you have not yet clarified this), and I'm interested in knowing more about how this is in regards to the subject. What does it mean? What role is it playing in your point of view?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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You gonna' read the links to scientific evidence I provided... or are you gonna' keep reacting to me like I have picked an unfair fight?
You are still proving my point FG.
You are taking things personally which I did not say to you.
You are reading malice into benign thoughts. And, apparently, you are still a few posts behind, in this thread.
You are reacting emotionally, and not logically. That is fine... but it is unfounded. Love IS a crazy emotion.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: And isn't it true that you said that you can shape your feelings at your Will? You should know better since you're an actor If so, isn't that our AWARENESS, Will, make that chemical release happen? When we acknowledge love, we choose to get ourselves immersed in it and decide to be absorbed in that state. It is only chemical if you decide to look at it only from a chemical POV. As well as this world is only material if you decide to look at it from a material aspect. From the moment we decide to take responsibility for our feelings we can't say that they are dependent on things we can not control, it's a contradiction
You are finally getting on board, MT.
We choose to feel emotions. True.
What happens next, we can't always control... since we are under the influence of chemicals.
I said as much in my first post.
You've almost got it.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062350 - 06/18/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
What happens next, we can't always control.
This is a really vague explanation... we can't always control. What "we" (we the Shroomery, we the living beings, we humans, we... what "we"?) And "can't always" doesn't speak for everybody And what happens next?
You also said that love is crazy which means unpractical and unfounded, something beyond control. You're contradicting yourself
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
Edited by MushroomTrip (06/18/07 04:55 PM)
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Rose
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IF I fall in love... I can't always control where that emotion will take me... not with a clear head, for you see... I will already be under the chemical influence of love.
It is sorta' like being an unreliable driver when you are drunk.
And, by, "We" I meant, "We humans".
Often, as an actor... I just fake it... or, "Schmact" my way through a scene. It is not very rewarding... but, some emotions are too hot to be consistently reliable on stage... especially for a young, inexperienced, or just plain bad actor.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062373 - 06/18/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: You gonna' read the links to scientific evidence I provided... or are you gonna' keep reacting to me like I have picked an unfair fight?
You are still proving my point FG.
You are taking things personally which I did not say to you.
You are reading malice into benign thoughts. And, apparently, you are still a few posts behind, in this thread.
You are reacting emotionally, and not logically. That is fine... but it is unfounded. Love IS a crazy emotion.
This entire post deserves to be deleted, in accordance with the rules of this forum. Not one of these sentences focuses upon the on-topic discussion of this thread, and, in case you weren't already aware, discussing the personal nature of other posters is not acceptable in this forum.
So, you can take your assertions regarding the nature of my "reactions", you can take your conclusions regarding how I am reading things, you can take empty statements regarding how many posts I am behind, you can take your entirely unsubstantiated statement that I am "proving your point", you can take your assertion regarding me "protecting my girl", you can take your reference to us being "lovers", and you can consider them unposted.
Feel free to send them to me through private messages if you want, because none of this contributes to the productive discussion of ideas. Its akin to sabotage of individuals who are interested in discussing ideas on an ideaological level, instead of failing to address dissenting and critical viewpoints with anything more than "you're wrong", "you're only proving my point", and various remarks concerning the personal nature of individuals, which is, of course, not what this forum is for.
Now, in order to facillitate your ability to focus on discussing ideas, I will now do you a favor and quote specific points I raised in direct response to ideas that you presented, so that you can focus upon them and actually discuss the ideas, in a productive and intelligent fashion. Any continuance of these projections of the personal nature of others will not be tolerated.
Quote:
fireworks_god said: As previously stated, love is a level of consciousness, and fear is the result of thought processes that obstruct our ability to be centered within that level of consciousness. We fear when our sense of security is threatened. Its hard to experience life centered in the level of consciousness of love when one is still attached to the security level of consciousness.
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Maybe you should review the definitions of the words "love" and "infatuation" before you accuse others of misusing the words?
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Well, as much as I love being served judgement, I'd tend to expect some demonstration as to the nature of my being wrong, if I am to lend any credence to said judgement. Without engaging in discussion regarding the perspectives I've presented, which is the spirit in which I engaged your perspective on the matter, your conclusion is unsubstantiated, effectively worthless.
Quote:
fireworks_god said: I never stated that you said love is serotonin; I stated that love is not serotonin. Perhaps you could expand upon how you have related the subject matter with the presence of specific chemicals? You said love triggers a release of serotonin (your usage of the word is very ambigious in consideration of the context in which you've placed it, and you have not yet clarified this), and I'm interested in knowing more about how this is in regards to the subject. What does it mean? What role is it playing in your point of view?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062376 - 06/18/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes some can some can't Some can eliminate negative additional feelings, some can't I was referring to the cases when we're being able to rid all the destructive emotions that make love be blind.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062391 - 06/18/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: IF I fall in love... I can't always control where that emotion will take me... not with a clear head, for you see... I will already be under the chemical influence of love.
When I smell a dandelion, and its chemical components enter into my system and subsequently alter my own chemical composition, I personally choose not to use it as a scapegoat for my own inability to assume responsibility for myself and my ability to effectively act and make decisions.
We can create any excuse we desire to evade personal responsibility. It speaks nothing for the nature of the emotional experience itself.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Love makes you do stupid things. Deny it all you want, but its true.
Moderator edit: Removed portion of reply that is in violation of forum rules.
Edited by fireworks_god (06/18/07 05:18 PM)
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Rose
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes some can some can't Some can eliminate negative additional feelings, some can't I was referring to the cases when we're being able to rid all the destructive emotions that make love be blind.
Certainly, the more experience you have with an emotion, the better you become at controlling it.
Now, I have to go to work.
Moderator Edit: Removed portion of post that is in violation of the forum rules.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by fireworks_god (06/18/07 05:24 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Emotions [Re: adrug]
#7062446 - 06/18/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
adrug said: Love makes you do stupid things. Deny it all you want, but its true.
Is that so? The position of the planet Jupiter makes people do stupid things too, doesn't it?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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figgusfiddus
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Re: Emotions [Re: adrug]
#7062468 - 06/18/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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If forced to choose between love as a nebulous and tired romantic ideal and love as an incredible and impossibly complex chemical and electromagnetic reaction in the most unusual life form yet, with life itself being an incredible and impossible notion in the first place, a reaction designed for the benefit of the species and indeed for the benefit of all life as we know it... well, I will take the latter. Love is not the purpose of life, because there is no purpose to life. It simply is, and that, certainly, is what makes it beautiful. Love is not magic, nor "spiritual energy", nor a "life force"... it is not mysticism or mythology. Love is not sex, or even the periphery that surrounds sex and the process of mating. It is the one thing that keeps us alive, the one thing that leads us to protect ourselves and the people around us. It is a glue that helps us to keep going, and that is greater than any romantic myth you could invent.
Humans are fascinated by the juxtaposition of the impossible with the possible, the fantasy with the real. Isn't the real enough? Isn't the real more potent than our inventions? A miracle is a cheap and petty thing compared to true human experience.
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
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Sinbad
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7062527 - 06/18/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: All i get is heartache after i fall in love, i get jealous, afraid and hurt. Then when the relationship is over i'm stuck with a weakened heart.
Love mixed with lust and attachment is a usually responsible for weakening the heart.
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Zaprabe
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7062614 - 06/18/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Emotions are a subjective aspect of human consciousness. The amygdala is the primary area of the brain associated with what we identify as emotions. There are some pretty fascinating studies in this regard. Autistic people some to severely lack a capacity for many emotions. But like I said, this is very subjective. We all more or less know what love or happiness is, but as of yet there is no way to quantify these things.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Emotions [Re: Droz]
#7062658 - 06/18/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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First of all, I think that it would be useful to discuss emotions in general, rather than delving into the realms of "love" (as related in this thread = infatuation, sexual chemistry, jealousy, heartbreak).
Emotions are information from the older portions of our brain, as theorized by Dr. Paul McLean.
Quote:
In 1952 MacLean first coined the name "limbic system" for the middle part of the brain. It can also be termed the paleopallium or intermediate (old mammalian) brain. It corresponds to the brain of the most mammals, and especially the earlier ones. The old mammalian brain residing in the limbic system is concerned with emotions and instincts, feeding, fighting, fleeing, and sexual behaviour. As MacLean observes, everything in this emotional system is either "agreeable or disagreeable". Survival depends on avoidance of pain and repetition of pleasure.
When this part of the brain is stimulated with a mild electrical current various emotions (fear, joy, rage, pleasure and pain etc) are produced. No emotion has been found to reside in one place for very long. But the Limbic system as a whole appears to be the primary seat of emotion, attention, and affective (emotion-charged) memories. Physiologically, it includes the the hypothalamus, hippocampus, and amygdala. It helps determine valence (e.g., whether you feel positive or negative toward something, in Buddhism referred to as vedena - "feeling") and salience (e.g., what gets your attention); unpredictability, and creative behaviour. It has vast interconnections with the neocortex, so that brain functions are not either purely limbic or purely cortical but a mixture of both.
MacLean claims to have found in the Limbic system a physical basis for the dogmatic and paranoid tendency, the biological basis for the tendency of thinking to be subordinate feeling, to rationalize desires. He sees a great danger in all this limbic system power. As he understands it, this lowly mammalian brain of the limbic system tends to be the seat of our value judgements, instead of the more advanced neocortex. It decides whether our higher brain has a "good" idea or not, whether it feels true and right.
http://www.kheper.net/topics/intelligence/MacLean.htm
To claim that this constant stream of "data" is responsible for our poor choices, our inability to use reason, or our attachment to life always going our way, is ridiculous.
We can utilize the emotional portion of our reactions to our experiences, integrate it with our more-evolved, neo-cortical responses, and enable ourselves to live as WHOLE beings.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7062816 - 06/18/07 07:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good post...
I would only add one thing.
Humans experience some emotions more often than others. Experience counts... therefore, your first heartbreak will hurt more than the next.
Without emotional experience... the reaction can and will be more immature than you described.
Back to work.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/18/07 11:07 PM)
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Veritas
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7062870 - 06/18/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree, and I would further say that this degree of emotional experience is necessary before one can fully develop one's ability to holistically respond to one's emotional reactions.
My sons are 14 and 6, and I've already taught them the basics of rational disputation and integration of their emotional reactions. When they were little (toddlers), I began their lessons with the "Cool Down" response. This could be counting to 10, breathing deeply and slowly, lying down, listening to quiet music, taking a Time Out in another room, or whatever worked to settle down their Fight or Flight reaction.
I've introduced more advanced techniques as they progressed through the stages of psychological development, and they have been able to use these tools during their acquistion of emotional experience.
It amazes me that we require knowledge and training in the operation of a car, yet teach people so little about the operation of their emotions.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7063785 - 06/18/07 11:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes,
Men in this culture are especially vulnerable to emotion.
Women learn to deal with their emotions in their teens... most men take until their early to mid twenties... and even then, men aren't as well versed. But hey, we guys can pee standing up!
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7063801 - 06/18/07 11:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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While I agree that men are mainly taught to ignore or suppress their emotions, I strongly disagree that women learn to deal with their emotions. If anything, they are even more prone to becoming addicted to romantic fantasy. They are also much more likely to become depressed, wallowing in self-pity and regret.
Same dysfunction, different symptoms.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7063848 - 06/18/07 11:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Heh... I agree and disagree.
Women are chemically MORE emotional. This is a fact.
While women are more apt in dealing with emotion then your average man... they also must deal with more emotions than your average man.
That said, women are generally more social than men... and this serves to train them emotionally, at a younger age. This is why we have movies about, "Mean Girls".
Finally, when men feel emotional, it, more often than not, triggers the fight or flight mechanism. Evidence of this reaction can be found in this very thread.
Women have a third option. Where a man would typically choose between fight or flight, a woman will often EMPATHIZE, rather than fighting OR running away. Evidence of this behavior can also be found in this thread.
Yes, women are more emotional... but they are better wired to deal with the emotions they feel.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/18/07 11:45 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7063897 - 06/18/07 11:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's only a social concept. Women are in a way and men are in different.
It's up to us whether we assume the role our society gives us or not. In other words, we can choose not be social victims and take our lives in our own hands, making our mistakes and learning our own lessons.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Sorry, MT... women ARE more emotionally evolved than men.
http://www.personalityresearch.org/papers/mccarthy.html http://www.utne.com/webwatch/2003_92/news/10733-1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tend_and_befriend http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/17008879/page/3/
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Women are in a way and men are in different.
I think that sentence is still a cut and paste away from making sense. Can you run it by me again?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/18/07 11:50 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7063937 - 06/18/07 11:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think that sentence is still a cut and paste away from making sense. Can you run it by me again?
You earlier said:
Quote:
While women are more apt in dealing with emotion then your average man... they also must deal with more emotions than your average man.
I think that's a form of avoiding responsibility and in the same time of acknowledging the fact that every human being (be it man or woman) can improve themselves. Saying "I'm not built to handle emotions" is a form of severe self indulgence.
I still didn't hear your own opinions regarding the links you gave me. I'd appreciate it if you will.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
I think that's a form of avoiding responsibility and in the same time of acknowledging the fact that every human being (be it man or woman) can improve themselves. Saying "I'm not built to handle emotions" is a form of severe self indulgence.
Every human can learn, and improve... even men.
Quote:
I still didn't hear your own opinions regarding the links you gave me. I'd appreciate it if you will.
Those links just back up what I have previously said. You said my calims were just a concept... so I backed up my claims with links. No need to read them if you don't wish to... but if you don't believe me... read the links. I learned long ago... if I am going to suggest men are different than women, I should back it up with links.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/19/07 12:10 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7063966 - 06/19/07 12:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Every human can learn, and improve... even men.
How come?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Well... uh... we have brains... for learnin' stuff with.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064000 - 06/19/07 12:14 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Sorry, MT... women ARE more emotionally evolved than men.
CNN: "Men everywhere have today conceded that women are more 'emotionally evolved' so that they will please stop talking about their goddamned co-worker's dysfunctional relationship."
Anyway, what you're describing is a distinction between male and female stress responses. It has nothing to do with being "emotionally evolved," except by the subjective criteria that you yourself seem to have established.
Additionally, though they have isolated a chemical reaction that may lead to this response (and which is proportional to estrogen content), they have apparently failed to note that virtually all human societies were founded upon community and cohabitation.
I have no problem with egalitarianism--which is potentially unique from any other "-ism" that starts with the name of any sort of group--but some people are so desperate for self-affirmation that they will distort any and every fact to their benefit. I'm not talking about you in particular--your interpretation of the study is common. And simplistic. Sorry.
EDIT: For clarity and to add a "Sorry." in case I am being mean. I am trying to curb this, because almost everything I say is pointlessly vicious!
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
Edited by figgusfiddus (06/19/07 12:25 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064009 - 06/19/07 12:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes... actually in "... even men", it's that part that made me wonder about the conduct of your reply. Do I detect a shadow of self esteem?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Quote:
figgusfiddus said:
Quote:
Cervantes said: Sorry, MT... women ARE more emotionally evolved than men.
CNN: "Men everywhere have today conceded that women are more 'emotionally evolved' so that they will please stop talking about their goddamned co-worker's dysfunctional relationship."
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Quote:
figgusfiddus said: CNN: "Men everywhere have today conceded that women are more 'emotionally evolved' so that they will please stop talking about their goddamned co-worker's dysfunctional relationship."
Funniest comment I've seen in ages. You get 5 shrooms for that one.
Quote:
figgusfiddus said: Anyway, what you're describing is a distinction between male and female stress responses. It has nothing to do with being "emotionally evolved," except by the subjective criteria that you yourself seem to have established.
Well, you'd have a point... if stress weren't a trigger for most emotions, positive and negative. This is why I bring up male, and female stress responses. I could also, link to evidence that ESTROGEN encourages women to feel emotions more often than men... while society encourages men to suppress their emotions.
Quote:
figgusfiddus said: I have no problem with egalitarianism, but some people are so desperate for self-affirmation that they will distort any and every fact to their benefit. I'm not talking about you in particular--your interpretation of the study is common. And simplistic.
You say you aren't talking about me in particular... but from your last sentence, it seems like you are.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/19/07 12:37 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064075 - 06/19/07 12:43 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK I'll generally speak. People who have the tendency to find excuses for some of their inabilities behind something preset is exactly what I named as self indulgence which puts a stop to evolution.
See: "Sorry, MT... women ARE more emotionally evolved than men."
The same could be replaced with: Human beings are not anatomically "designed" to fly. But that didn't stop us from inventing airplanes and helicopters, is that right?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: OK I'll generally speak. People who have the tendency to find excuses for some of their inabilities behind something preset is exactly what I named as self indulgence which puts a stop to evolution.
Humans stopped physically evolving, around the time we began to evolve verbally, emotionally and technologically. Coincidence?
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Human beings are not anatomically "designed" to fly. But that didn't stop us from inventing airplanes and helicopters, is that right?
True...
Although... we may yet sprout wings and feathers.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064113 - 06/19/07 01:02 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you decide to take ad litteram... which I know you're inclined to but it's not the case
Let me rephrase that though: We a think called self awareness. Which made us realize that we exist and that we know that we exist. Which in extent made us aware of our feelings that we can control them since we're not strangers to ourselves anymore And on that we already came to an understanding earlier. Since we know that we know (again) that we can control our own feelings, we can't hide behind a theory anymore unless... we really want to find an excuse for self-indulgence. Now consider this awareness and self awareness as a tool for making our feelings change the way we want. The way we use this awareness as a toll is exactly the way we use airplanes to make us fly.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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figgusfiddus
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064159 - 06/19/07 01:25 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: You say you aren't talking about me in particular... but from your last sentence, it seems like you are.
I didn't say I wasn't talking about you, just... not you exclusively.
Quote:
Well, you'd have a point... if stress weren't a trigger for most emotions, positive and negative. This is why I bring up male, and female stress responses. I could also, link to evidence that ESTROGEN encourages women to feel emotions more often than men... while society encourages men to suppress their emotions.
What are "positive and negative" emotions? I don't know, that's the kind of thinking I was talking about. I'm not calling you simplistic, but I think your analysis is simplistic.
It doesn't say that estrogen encourages women to feel more emotions, just that it may lead them to act more communally in stressful/dangerous situations.
That men don't feel emotions or are taught to somehow suppress them is a tired 1950s stereotype... I don't think anyone can really say that men feel emotions more rarely. Jealousy, rage, fear, love... all these things are emotions, and all people feel them. I do think it is more typical of male psychology not to discuss those emotions or to seek answers to their emotional issues by themselves, but I don't see how that relates to the study quoted. I think this study is a case of sound basic science being assumed to have widespread psychological implications.
By the way, I have no interest in the original post whatsoever that is unrelated to mockery. What's up with this thread? Can we see some age verification?
That's not a jibe... well, okay, it's a jibe, but I really think this is some adolescent stuff that will work itself out. "Love only leads to heartbreak! WOE! WOE!" Ah shit, there I go, proving I'm an insensitive male.
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
It doesn't say that estrogen encourages women to feel more emotions, just that it may lead them to act more communally in stressful/dangerous situations.
That men don't feel emotions or are taught to somehow suppress them is a tired 1950s stereotype... I don't think anyone can really say that men feel emotions more rarely. Jealousy, rage, fear, love... all these things are emotions, and all people feel them. I do think it is more typical of male psychology not to discuss those emotions or to seek answers to their emotional issues by themselves, but I don't see how that relates to the study quoted. I think this study is a case of sound basic science being assumed to have widespread psychological implications.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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I think I understand what you are saying, and if I do... I agree.
Although, I suspect you are as drunk as I am... because your posts are getting hard to read. You actually wrote, "We a think called self awareness."
Heh, it is getting late... we should continue tomorrow, on fresh brains.
Moderator edit: Removed off-topic portion of reply.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by fireworks_god (06/19/07 12:21 PM)
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064167 - 06/19/07 01:31 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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If FG is figgusfiddus, I'm pretty hard to offend, and wish that everyone else in the world were so allowing.
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Rose
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FG = Fireworks God
Quote:
figgusfiddus said: What are "positive and negative" emotions? I don't know, that's the kind of thinking I was talking about. I'm not calling you simplistic, but I think your analysis is simplistic.
I agree. My analysis IS simplistic. I like to keep my forum posts... well, post sized. That unfortunately requires cutting corners... from time to time.
I learned here, long ago... make your point... and defend it later. If people don't ask for more info... they didn't want to hear it in the first place.
I provided links to MORE information, BECAUSE my analysis WAS simplistic.
You are as guilty as I... since I have not yet seen analysis from your end to over complicate mine.
Fugg... I have one person asking for SIMPLE descriptions of my links, and then I have you, asking for complicated ones. You're getting the shaft... because I haven't known you as long.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/19/07 02:04 AM)
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064185 - 06/19/07 01:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, simplistic and simple are different things, at least the way I see it. But we can let it go.
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Rose
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Keep it simple.
Keep it simplistic.
Whatever...
If I had covered every single thing argued in this thread... I'd have covered everything from the rules of this forum, to weather things can ever actually be, "Positive and Negative".
This thread is about, "Emotions" hence the title... and, "Love" hence the first post. Forgive me for swimming through as many non-sequeters as possible... and attempting to keep it simple.
Forgive me for my simplistic analysis... that is why I posted links, to flesh out my thoughts.
Guilty as charged.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/19/07 02:07 AM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7064936 - 06/19/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't you wonder whether this "chemical fact" would be as factual if women were socialized differently?
Hmmm...I am reminded of a fascinating study I read in which men who were very involved in the gestation, birth and early care of their children showed major shifts in their endocrinology. I'll have to see if I can find it online later. (At work now. )
Suffice it to say, our endocrinology is probably far more responsive to our behavior than you are claiming. Men who choose to be more in touch with their emotions (so-called "feminine side") may develop a different endocrine profile than those who choose to identify with the macho "tough guy" stereotype.
More later.
(Nice to see you around again, Cervantes.)
Found it!
Fathers and Hormonal Changes
Quote:
Parke believes that the research suggests something even more radical: "Men are much more androgynous than we think." We have the capability to be aggressive and nurturing. The traditional view of men as predominantly aggressive really sells men short and denies their capability to experience the range of human emotions.
The research suggests that a man's hormones may play an important role in helping him experience this full range of emotions especially in becoming a loving and devoted dad. In fact, it offers the first evidence that to nurture is part of man's nature.
Edited by Veritas (06/19/07 09:50 AM)
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7065439 - 06/19/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I SAW that on the news this week. Very cool.
Fathers will practically become mothers, while their girl is preggers.
Not too surprising... hell, some animals will switch sex... if need be.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7065608 - 06/19/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not just during pregancy, but potentially permanently, if they continue to actively parent their child!
I suspect that our endocrinology is highly responsive to our behavior, as well as vice versa. It is not a one-way, set-in-stone by our XX/XY factor, one-size-fits-all chemical composition, but a fluid, responsive, highly-changeable formula.
"The Alchemy of Love and Lust," by Dr. Theresa Crenshaw, is a fantastic book regarding endocrinology in process.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7065623 - 06/19/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fascinating stuff... both sexes are programmed to act one way...
Then children get put into the mix... and a father becomes maternal... he may even begin the lactation process.
Dead beat dads have no such change... they leave BEFORE the estrogen starts pumping... and continue acting like alpha males.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7065763 - 06/19/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd be interested in a study which compares the estrogen/testosterone ratio in men who are emotionally intimate with their partners vs. "loners" or emotionally distant relationships.
I've heard anecdotal evidence which supports my suspicion that it is connection, and not biological imperatives (childrearing) which tips the balance between nurturant (estrogen) and competitive (testosterone) hormones.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7065932 - 06/19/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm on the same page.
Still human males are much more inconsistent as parents than other primates.
Other monkey males either raise their young, or they don't. Humans are much less consistent.
It is theorized that since humans take so long, and so much energy to mature... the man is hardwired to step in for the woman... when society needs it.
I wonder, if women are wired to step into a man's role...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/19/07 02:36 PM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7066021 - 06/19/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, as a single mother, I have to fulfill both the "man's" role (providing, protecting) AND the "woman's" role (nurturing, teaching).
So it seems that the sexes are fairly adaptable to what is needed. Perhaps if our culture were more oriented toward androgeny, there would be a less-defined line between these gender roles, and thus fewer hormonal and behavioral distinctions between the sexes?
Of course, there will always be biological differences, as they are necessary for our reproductive functionality, but they do seem to have become fairly exaggerated by our cultural dictates. Both sexes are encouraged to become emotionally stunted in certain aspects, rather than develop into "well-rounded" humans.
I've always aimed for androgeny, myself, as I see many beneficial qualities in both masculinity and femininity.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066126 - 06/19/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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As do I.
I wonder if bisexuality, homosexuality, transgender... etc... I wonder if they become MORE common, as population increases. Sort of nature's way of preventing overpopulation?
There is proof of animals switching sexes during times of underpopulation.
Could overpopulation lead to androgeny?
Certainly big cities are more liberal towards homosexuals... et all.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7066246 - 06/19/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Now, now, androgeny refers to gender performance, NOT sexual orientation. Sexual orientation seems to be "set" in utero, or so the latest studies indicate. Gender performance is learned, culturally enforced and variable.
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Williamsii
Explorer
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 349
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066396 - 06/19/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well Shakespeare pulled his plots from previous stories. In the case of Othello, Hecatommithi from Cinthio's collection of stories. These stories reflected realities in the human condition.
Quote:
Serontonin makes one vulnerable to paranoia
That is a very simplified statement and is not particularly true. Serotonin causes one emotional reaction. It is a more complex and subtle balance of chemicals of the brain that leads it to paranoia.
I feel love is too complex to cover in this short medium. There are so many varied opinions and types of love that we could argue about this for a ridiculously long time. Try and accept that you need to learn for yourself because people generally won't believe something until they experience it themselves.
Feel the love
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Williamsii
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woops! Didn't realise there were several pages . Sorry guys.
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Rose
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066497 - 06/19/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Heh, Will... I was wondering if you'd read this whole thing.
Quote:
Veritas said: Now, now, androgeny refers to gender performance, NOT sexual orientation. Sexual orientation seems to be "set" in utero, or so the latest studies indicate. Gender performance is learned, culturally enforced and variable.
Yes, you miss my point.
I wonder if there will be a higher percentage of homosexuals conceived... as the world's population increases. Or if not homosexuals, at least... people with less need to procreate. This was the global, "Androgyny" I was referencing in my last post... not the best word choice... but I'm sticking with it.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/19/07 05:13 PM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Rose]
#7066677 - 06/19/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK, you were re-interpreting the term--gotcha. I doubt that homosexuality will increase relative to the population, but infertility does tend to increase as a population outgrows the natural resources and/or space available to live in. Homosexuality seems to exist at a certain percentage in animal populations, and would appear to be a genetic "quirk" as opposed to a response to environment.
You probably know that all fetuses are "female" until/unless they are exposed to testosterone in utero. It seems that a small percentage of chromosomally male fetuses are exposed to less testosterone than others, and a small percentage of chromosomally female fetuses are exposed to small amounts of testosterone. The hormonal difference is not enough to create a hermaphrodite, but it changes the fetus' brain. In some cases (think: "Boys Don't Cry"), this alteration is significant enough to cause gender conflict.
Very interesting stuff! I've always felt that my brain and sex drive leaned towards the male side of this hormonal teeter-totter, but that might just be relative to my particular culture.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066709 - 06/19/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: ...Homosexuality seems to exist at a certain percentage in animal populations, and would appear to be a genetic "quirk" as opposed to a response to environment.
Is racism genetic? Preference for Indian food? I think homophobia, racism or a habitual dislike of certain foods, is more a factor of circumstance than genetic.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7066740 - 06/19/07 06:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Homophobia, racism & enjoying hot curries are all examples of acquired preferences. These preferences do not exist in other animal populations, but homosexuality does. This indicates a genetic basis. In addition, brain studies have shown beyond question that the brains of homosexuals have much more in common with brains of the opposite sex than they do with their own sex.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7066763 - 06/19/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Booby said:
Quote:
Veritas said: ...Homosexuality seems to exist at a certain percentage in animal populations, and would appear to be a genetic "quirk" as opposed to a response to environment.
Is racism genetic? Preference for Indian food? I think homophobia, racism or a habitual dislike of certain foods, is more a factor of circumstance than genetic.
If preference for ethnic cuisine is genetic then a Thai baby raised in Brooklyn would naturaly revert to a Thai preference I presume.
Perhaps sexual appetite and food preference are not both covered by genetic influences. Or maybe it's only the sexual preference.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066797 - 06/19/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Homophobia, racism & enjoying hot curries are all examples of acquired preferences. These preferences do not exist in other animal populations, but homosexuality does. This indicates a genetic basis. In addition, brain studies have shown beyond question that the brains of homosexuals have much more in common with brains of the opposite sex than they do with their own sex.
I would imagine that varying preferences in diet occurs within the same species when groups of such species are isolated from one another (such as apes). If such is the case then acquired preferences does exist in other species. I guess this is a question for zoologists?
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7066821 - 06/19/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have not heard of another animal with a preference for hot curries.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066909 - 06/19/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just think, if we can determine that all homo's are genetic, then we could determine that all psycho's and petty thieves are genetic.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7066919 - 06/19/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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*sigh* Apples and oranges.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066936 - 06/19/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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We've determined that the physical characteristics are genetic and now we want to confirm that mental characteristics are also genetic.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066946 - 06/19/07 06:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I have not heard of another animal with a preference for hot curries.
My dog loves hot curries. She'll take them over bland food any day, even though you can see tears streaming from her eyes as she gobbles them down.
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7066954 - 06/19/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Booby said: We've determined that the physical characteristics are genetic and now we want to confirm that mental characteristics are also genetic.
Everything psychological is both genetic and acquired. There is a medium and there are those acquired things which happen to that medium, shaping it. This is why almost everything genetically determined is in fact a genetic "predisposition", not a deterministic certainty.
It's simple, and yet everyone refuses to consider that a gray answer is more correct than a black and white one.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Simpler if it's black & white.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7066972 - 06/19/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Homosexuality is more akin to a physical characteristic than a mental characteristic, as the actual structure of the brain is different. This is not about preferring blonds to brunettes.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7066981 - 06/19/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Then a catscan will determine if I am a homosexual? ( or predisposed as such?)
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
figgusfiddus said:
Quote:
Veritas said: I have not heard of another animal with a preference for hot curries.
My dog loves hot curries. She'll take them over bland food any day, even though you can see tears streaming from her eyes as she gobbles them down.
Yes, she has learned to like them through your offering them to her. It is not as though she was wandering in the wild & came across a bowl of hot curry. No wild animals have a natural preference for curry, yet a significant percentage have a natural preference for the same sex.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7067010 - 06/19/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nope, you'll have to wait for the autopsy results.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7067040 - 06/19/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Then I guess there is no argument against your assumption that all homosexuals are genetically divergent as their brain indicates upon removal and dissection.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7067049 - 06/19/07 07:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's not "my" assumption, it's the results of research.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7067056 - 06/19/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Could the research be biased ya think?
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Emotions [Re: Booby]
#7067074 - 06/19/07 07:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, the research involves several different studies, all of which examined the brains of heterosexual and homosexual men and women. If there was bias, it was very widespread & involved successfully faking physical evidence.
If anything, I'd say the bias goes in the other direction--that homosexuals could change and be "normal" if they wanted.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Emotions [Re: Veritas]
#7067093 - 06/19/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago) |
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Unfortunately biased opinions are common. It's not farfetched to believe that one could "Pay for" or design a study to acquire a specific finding. I guess I'm skeptical of the results, but perhaps time will prove you right.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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