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the last temptation of christ
    #702095 -

magnificent book by kazantzakis...
(& eye-catching film by martin scorcese...)
the book got kazantzakis excommunicated by the greek orthodox church; the book is still on the index of books forbidden to roman catholics; the movie was picketed by many christians when it was released...
the story is about a tormented carpenter trying to come to terms with his god, and with his tempter... while gathering many followers who hope that this one, is indeed, the promised messiah... and as the ministry reaches its passionate climax of triumph, betrayal, desolation, & crucifixion, this jesus is tempted one last time --- to abandon the cross and live as a normal man, growing old surrounded by his wives & children, content and no longer bothered by the burden of attempting to live as the one chosen by his heavenly father to be the messiah... until he sees his beloved jerusalem put to the torch by the forces of the roman empire, and is confronted one last time by those who had called themselves his disciples...
has anyone else enjoyed this fascinating, infuriating, inspiring book ??? (or any other nikos kazantzakis books, for that matter?)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: gnrm23]
    #702104 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: World Spirit]
    #702168 -

then see it as entertainment for christ's sake (pun intended ;p)! i haven't read the book, but that movie has to rate top 10 in my book...


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: World Spirit]
    #702224 -

okey fine, dude...
hehheh... my mom's adult sunday school class went as a group to see the flick when it was released... so here's a buncha lutherans walking past a buncha sign-toting protesters all bent outa shape about... whatever.... go figure...
anyway, i still highly recommend checking out the book...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: gnrm23]
    #702607 -

Hey...when my ex-wife and I went to see the film in Miami when it came out, I was patted down, and her purse was searched, along with everyone else in line. The only time anything like that ever happened at the movies.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: World Spirit]
    #702740 -

And...do you still think/believe that the authors of the four Gospels wrote accurate, eye-witness accounts? Imagination, plus separate agendas (with Matthew, the Judaizer; and John, the Hellenizer, just for example).

The Man on the cross, bruised, lacerated, broken nose (if you believe the Shroud of Turin), in shock, fatal amounts of serum collecting around the pericardium (which later would be written of as water coming out with blood, when pierced by the spear of Longinus, the centurian), and death drawing closer by asphixiation and cardiac arrest. Meanwhile, his mother and favorite friend/disciple John at the foot of the cross: 'Mother, behold your son; John behold your Mother.' Very moving drama. Really, no sarcasm intended. But unlikely to the point of it being artistic license. He was treated like a common criminal, with no glowing nimbuses, heavenly choir, or any consideration from pissed-off, hot, field-weary, hardened Roman sentries. At best, sour wine on a sponge was offered, but even this account varies. Was it sour wine, wine mingled with gall, or wine and myrrh?

So, why not a Scorcese account as well. Because it suggested that Jesus may have been sexual with Mary ("who loved much") who has been painted by tradition to be a prostitute, but was never definitively stated that way in the Scriptures. If you discovered some how that Jesus was not a virgin, would you lose your faith in Him? Would He have defiled the Divinity in Himself by a physical coupling with another human being? Do the rest of us, even with a 'potentially' different ontology than Jesus, defile our Divinely held Spirit when we couple in sex? The answer should be a definitve "No" to all questions. If Jesus was a a fully human man as all theology maintains, and He was heterosexual, then to look upon a beautiful woman with desire would be as natural as salivating at the smell of delicious food. If He did not do these things (as the Docetists said, because He only had an 'apparent' body), then He wasn't fully human. Baby Jesus shit in his swaddling clothes when He was small. He nursed at Miriam's breast as an infant, and derived the same sensual and even sexual gratification that ALL babies receive, and which carries over to normal adult male sexual behavior.

Please do everyone a favor and refrain from using the word 'blasphemy,' it scares me 'cause it reminds me of Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor and every sexual sadist in black hood with red-hot instuments of torture, that ever lived. We don't know how it was. All we know is the Name, and its association with self-sacrificial love. That's all any of us needs. The rest is wrapping.

" There was a Man from midnight...Who walked along the road...a Light was His possession...it was a heavy load...He wrapped it all in colors, but kept the binding free...for those who felt the hunger, and truly longed to see." 'The Light' -Brewer and Shipley


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #702836 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #703251 -

Throughout the centuries, perpetual virgins in cloisters avoided human intimacy with the mistaken notion that their asexual, and I must say, repressed sexuality, equated with spiritual holinesss. The monastic mentality attempted to 'gird up' their loins, so as to act 'from the heart upwards,' like angels were assumed to do. The 'centauric man,' to use a term by Ken Wilber, was to be 'transcended' by abstinence of sexual union. Doesn't work - never has - which is why the original Jewish flavor of Christianity was perverted by the NeoPlatonic element upon which Catholic monasticism was based. Celibacy was never a part of Jewish culture. The Kings had more concubines than wives, and hundreds of each. The social stucture didn't allow for unmarried women outside of the family, so one could make the erroneous claim that people were holier back then. Jesus died young and probably didn't have a relationship with a 'girlfriend,' since it was not a social construct. He probably wouldn't have bought a hooker - shoot, even I haven't done that, and I've got just a 'B' or 'B+' morality. But Jesus is not God. He may have embodied the qualities attributed to Yahweh to such an extent, that people of a Hellenistic bent began to talk of Him as the very Incarnation or manifestation of God-on-Earth, but Jesus never said anything like 'I am God,' or 'I am the Father.' No, He allegedly said 'I and the Father are one,' and theologians made much of this mystical statement.

Oh my God! How can one claim to be a Christian, and not believe that Jesus=God? Easy. Jesus is the type of man, the archetype of man, that one needs to be like (as in likeness) in order to Know God. From this perspective, which I claim to be Christian, as well as Jewish and Islamic perspectives, the whole Trinitarian, Jesus as 'the prolation of the second Divine Hypostasis of the Triune Godhead,' is just wrong. It is a vain attempt of man, not a Truth of God, to set Christianity apart from the other monotheistic faiths. God was in Christ. Jesus was annointed, christed. Kings were annointed, and Kings were referred to as Sons of God in the OT. Nothing new here. A Covenant with God - for Gentiles, and, for Jews if they want to cut through the bullshit of religiosity as Jesus taught. But believe this...the baby Jesus did not shine like a 100 watt light bulb. Holiness is something else.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: gnrm23]
    #703884 -

but the beauty os kazantzakis is lost on those who would probably appreciate and love it the most- the book is not about sex. its not even about the steamy, sexy issue if jesus was christ, who he could have fucked, etc. it was a tribute to the love and torment that jesus could have suffered being a man, and how that manhood was necessary for him to carry out the struggles of becoming christ- allowing himself, forcing himself, running away from the huge weight of christhood. and that weight- kaz. illustrates that weight in a way ive never thought of before. and im not religious at all- and even i saw such beauty in the ... turmoil and triumph of the man-, that it always makes me sad when i hear people who *do* have the faith (incapable as i am) refuse to look at or try to experience this beautiful rendition of your lord... because though yes, it cannot be a first hand account (and, i refuse to enter in the debate of when the bible was written, and whose voice is and is not represented, etc.-) but it can be (and is) an attempt to glorify a man... ive never read a work that has glorified an experience or a man in a better, more profound way than kaz. did for christ.

i guess (thru my alcohol haze) im just trying to say- the zealots miss out if they dont read the book. because it lets you get past the little, trivial issues humans focus on (who fucked whom) and allows you to see one of the greatest triumphs achieved by a man. a man like me, a man we could be- because of the beauty, hugeness, and importance of humanity. i guess it is more of a tribute to humanity than anything, and if a tribute to humanity is blasphemy (how could it be? looking at the traditional *in his image* dogma, highest order, etc etc etc)- then, perhaps the *righteous* who are offended just of the concept of a drawing of god shouldnt read it.

but for the rest- its a great book one i would be happy to read along with with someone, if theyd want, after i finish vineland- i think im in the need for an uplifting novel in the wake of our era


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? oscill8 2001, 2002
"Any data submitted to Shroomery.org becomes our property"

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Re: the last temptation of christ [Re: oscill8]
    #703898 -

((ps, i cant help but offer the image of internalized bookburning ... you know *someone* has won *something* when people dont even have to burn the books anymore to get you to stop reading them. internal police... becoming your own cop, 101.))


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? oscill8 2001, 2002
"Any data submitted to Shroomery.org becomes our property"

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