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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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 Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia  [Re: Icelander]  2
#7011376 - 06/05/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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ice: the tarot arcana are not the same as popular memes gammadion and swastika have diverged as have the applications of silicone - keeping abreast of everybody's self expression is harder than a witches tit.
backfromthedead: inverted cards do mean things to fortune tellers who are charlatans, and can turn any statement upside down (ask me how I know).
ice: I do have the crowley deck and have had it for several decades - it is lush and degenerate and I love it that way, but I would not use it to learn from, I am already lush and degenerate. besides - it goes down hill fast after the fool card which is most precious.
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 backfromthedead
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#7011407 - 06/05/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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How do you know?? Inverted cards?? I meant the symbols, mainly the pentagram with point up, and the original swastika.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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(takes one to know one)
anyway,
there is no up in space.
everything is relative.
the original swastika was a gammadion
symbol for dynamic priciples, energy and life.
it was 4 upper case gammas - greek letters with the approximate sound of "G"
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#7011504 - 06/05/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's appropriate--the experience of life energy often inspires me to exclaim "gee" or "wow!" 
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Misanthrope
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: Veritas] 1
#7011595 - 06/05/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I see nothing in schizophrenic people's behavior to suggest they are happier, healthier, or more understanding. Indeed many of them are in a constant state of fear (paranoid schizophrenia, the most common subtype).
I agree with current psychiatric thinking that schizophrenia is a organic disease of the brain. It seems to be a problem with the area(s) of the brain that synthesize information into congruent thought trains. There are MRI scans that show structural differences in most schizophrenic people's brain.
Schizophrenics do not merely hear voices and see things that aren't there. They have difficulty understanding the world around them. Most schizophrenics have incoherent speech, an inability to understand abstractions of speech, and difficultly concentrating on anything happening in the "outside" world.
A more interesting theory, is that schizophrenics are "plugged in" to a certain cosmic frequency. Similar to Terrence Mckenna's take on mushroom trips.
Edited by Misanthrope (06/05/07 11:47 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: Misanthrope] 1
#7011734 - 06/05/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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they are plugged into their own mental state elevator operating system without a manual or qualifications to drive.
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backfromthedead
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: Misanthrope] 1
#7011761 - 06/05/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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“Insanity - a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.”
“There is no such ''condition'' as ''schizophrenia,'' but the label is a social fact and the social fact a political event.”
“Madness need not be all breakdown. It may also be break-through. It is potential liberation and renewal as well as enslavement and existential death.”
-R.D. Laing
Hard to get above to the renewal process when reality shoves you back under.
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Icelander
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#7011848 - 06/05/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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ice: I do have the crowley deck and have had it for several decades - it is lush and degenerate and I love it that way, but I would not use it to learn from, I am already lush and degenerate. besides - it goes down hill fast after the fool card which is most precious.
Well I was teasing you. I remember long ago in a thread you made disparaging remarks about that deck. I like very much some of the interpretations used and inspired by the Crowley deck. In my very armature opinion they embrace the so called negatives in a more balanced way then other decks. I am not enthralled by many of the images myself but I don't find much in the Rider deck either, and I'm not an expert on the intricacies of the images and so just take that intuitive glance at a card.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
backfromthedead said:
“Insanity - a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.”
“There is no such ''condition'' as ''schizophrenia,'' but the label is a social fact and the social fact a political event.”
“Madness need not be all breakdown. It may also be break-through. It is potential liberation and renewal as well as enslavement and existential death.”
-R.D. Laing
Hard to get above to the renewal process when reality shoves you back under.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: Numerology and schitzophrenia [Re: Icelander] 1
#7012968 - 06/05/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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“We are all in a post-hypnotic trance induced in early infancy”
“The experience and behavior that gets labeled schizophrenic is a special strategy that a person invents in order to live in an unlivable situation.”
“Schizophrenia cannot be understood without understanding despair.”
-R.D. Laing
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Misanthrope
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R.D. Laing had a schizophrenic daughter. After his daughter was diagnosed, he produced with a whole lot of philosophy about schizophrenia being a growth experience. R.D. Laing was one of the many psychoanalyst who blamed the family and society for a person's schizophrenia. And like most psychoanalysts of the 1950-1970s, his theories about the cause of schizophrenia have no scientific validity. In fact, everything he says about the cause of schizophrenia is discredited by the current scientific data; and counter intuitive to most the people with schizophrenia or schizophrenic family members.
"I was looked to as one who had the answers but I never had them" - R.D. Laing, in a 1982 interview.
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backfromthedead
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: Misanthrope] 1
#7016255 - 06/06/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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"In fact, everything he says about the cause of schizophrenia is discredited by the current scientific data; and counter intuitive to most the people with schizophrenia or schizophrenic family members."
A large problem, IMO. I am bipolar/schizophrenic, I find his analysis very helpful and subjectively accurate. I've spent time in a psych ward and their method was to basically medicate me into a coma. Yah, that helps. If you learn to view the situation in a different light new avenues of recovery open up. I realize not all schizophrenics are able to do this.
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spiritualemerg
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: Misanthrope] 1
#7017047 - 06/06/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Misanthrope said:
R.D. Laing had a schizophrenic daughter. After his daughter was diagnosed, he produced with a whole lot of philosophy about schizophrenia being a growth experience. R.D. Laing was one of the many psychoanalyst who blamed the family and society for a person's schizophrenia. And like most psychoanalysts of the 1950-1970s, his theories about the cause of schizophrenia have no scientific validity. In fact, everything he says about the cause of schizophrenia is discredited by the current scientific data; and counter intuitive to most the people with schizophrenia or schizophrenic family members.
"I was looked to as one who had the answers but I never had them" - R.D. Laing, in a 1982 interview.
Hmmm. Let me guess -- psychology student? Can you tell me, Misanthrope, what causes schizophrenia?
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~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.
Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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backfromthedead
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: spiritualemerg] 1
#7017163 - 06/06/07 08:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Let me guess -- psychology student?"
EEESH!! 
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
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the truth is people are ignorant lol and puppets
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Misanthrope
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: spiritualemerg] 1
#7017921 - 06/07/07 01:46 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
spiritualemerg said:
Hmmm. Let me guess -- psychology student? Can you tell me, Misanthrope, what causes schizophrenia?
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Med student. I (like any other credible individual) have no definite answer to that question, because the cause of schizophrenia is currently unknown. What is known, is that childhood traumas, relationships to parents, and status in a given community have no barring on who develops schizophrenia.
Prenatal viral infections, is a promising theory, but much more evidence much be gathered. It is curious how schizophrenics have inflamed immune systems. Virus as a cause would also explain why certain arenas of the brain are damaged, but the overall structural integrity is not compromised. Also how people born in the winter or spring, and in urban areas are much more likely to develop schizophrenia.
Also there seems to be a genetic factor is schizophrenia, leading to much research in to what genes make a person more susceptible to schizophrenia (there is no "schizophrenic" gene that can be isolated). Its been suggested that it may be both genetic susceptibility coupled with a prenatal viral infection, is the root of schizophrenia.
R.D. Laing has had his fair hearing on the matter. There have been countless studies done about the families and environments of schizophrenia. Believe it or not, from Freud to 20 years ago the majority psychologists, and even psychiatrists, believed schizophrenia to be related to the mother (later the family and community).
Freud himself never had nor wanted much to do with schizophrenia, shown clearly a letter in which he confided "I seldom see dements [dementia praecox or schizophrenia] and hardly other severe types of psychosis". Later he wrote to a friend: "I do not like these patients [schizophrenics]. . .I feel them to be so far distant from me and everything human. A curious sort of intolerance, which surely makes me unfit to be a psychiatrist."
Even so, the current thinking was that all mental illness was due to psychological damage, so naturally many psychologists and psychiatrists concluded the same should hold true for schizophrenia. And so surfaced theories about psychoanalytical causes and cures for schizophrenia.
During the 60s, Laing theories where quite popular amongst the progressive crowed. The problem is that the scientific literature simply does not show any link between psychotherapy of any kind of improvement or remission. In fact, most literature shows the schizophrenics respond negatively. R.D. Ling's "Kingsley Hall" where schizophrenics were exposed to loving family environments (but rarely medication) failed and closed.
Beyond the scientific data, there is the matter of common sense. The suicide rate is conservatively at %10 amongst schizophrenics. The majority of schizophrenics lack the ability to fully take care of themselves (many being homeless). 13% of schizophrenics are prone to violence. This does not sound like "enlightened" behavior.
How about people who suffer from schizophrenia after serious head trauma? or manifest schizophrenic like behavior due to brain tumors or Manic episodes? Are these people "enlightened" as well?
R.D. Laing himself, does not bother me. The few (and i stress, few) schizophrenics that take care of themselves and find his philosophies inspiring or what have you, I take no issue to. Its the anti-psychiatry associations that regurgitate his unfounded explanations, as if he ever offered a real alternative. Many associations convince people that are doing well to cease their medication, and campaign against money going to psychiatric programs.
I can understand why some people have animosity toward psychiatry. There are many institutions that are underfunded, understaffed, and overcrowded. There are many psychiatrist that are poor to incompetent. But trying to claim that schizophrenia doesn't exist, or is perfectly fine, isn't helping the situation. We need people to file suits against institutions and doctors that are behaving unethically. We need more money going into the right area's of research for schizophrenia. We need more caring understanding doctors, and less irresponsible philosophers and politicians dolling out deadly information.
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spiritualemerg
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: Misanthrope] 1
#7018278 - 06/07/07 06:30 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Misanthrope: We need more caring understanding doctors, and less irresponsible philosophers and politicians dolling out deadly information.
I'd be content with some better textbooks for medical students. Most of the misinformation within this thread is rooted in bias and ignorance. I can live with that from a "lay person". But you're training to become a doctor, and you have far more capability to inflict harm with your opinions as a result. Yes, I know you want to get all huffy and throw your hard-earned education at me, but I'm here to tell you that you only *think* you're getting a solid education when it comes to the topic of schizophrenia. Truth is, you're getting a bunch of recyled pap funnelled into your ears. Don't be so willing to call it education just because you paid for it with cold hard cash or nights spent burning the midnight oil.
Meantime, feel free to have a go...
There's lots more where those came from.
You are, incidentally, speaking with a "schizophrenic". Hospitalizations = 0. Medications = 0. Formal therapy = 0. My break was roughly five years ago; I have been working for 3.5 years, my relationships are all stable, my cognitive abilities are just fine (perhaps due to the lack of medication). Before you suggest that I'm an exception I'm going to remind you that the recovery rates in the west cannot hold a candle to the rates in developing nations -- I am only an exception in this culture and setting.
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~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.
Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
Edited by spiritualemerg (06/07/07 06:39 AM)
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spiritualemerg
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: spiritualemerg] 1
#7018293 - 06/07/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Misanthrope: The problem is that the scientific literature simply does not show any link between psychotherapy of any kind of improvement or remission.
You're wrong. The best recovery rates I've come across (80-85%) were produced by a Jungian trained psychiatrist (John Weir Perry) and a clincical psychologist (Jaakko Seikkula) both of whom relied on forms of talk therapy. Feel free to google those names to verify those facts or check out their articles in my Spiritual Recovery blog.
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~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.
Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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spiritualemerg
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: spiritualemerg] 1
#7018307 - 06/07/07 06:57 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Misanthrope: The suicide rate is conservatively at %10 amongst schizophrenics.
Many psychiatrists try to frighten families into keeping the person on medications by saying 10% of people with schizophrenia commit suicide. If you are told that, ask to see evidence proving that the statistic is accurate. The truth is, national statistics on suicide disprove that statement. There is no documented evidence supporting the assertion that 10% of people with schizophrenia commit suicide. If that was true, there would be over 250,000 suicides recorded in the United States every year instead of the 30,000 reported for all causes. If any mental health professional says that a person with schizophrenia is a suicide risk, ask to see published evidence that their statement is accurate.
Dr. Al Siebert
Misanthrope: 13% of schizophrenics are prone to violence.
May 15, 2006: TAC is Fuller Torrey's non-profit that goes around demonizing all mentally-ill Americans on the basis of the violent behavior of a few. Torrey is a controversial figure in psychiatry. He believes that a virus present in cat shit is the source of schizophrenia. I am not kidding. He has also spent much of his career accusing schizophrenics and bipolars of being John Hinkleys-in-waiting. He is also the author of the best-selling Surviving Schizophrenia. He is quoted in the press probably more than any other single expert on mental illness. He and his colleagues are powerful and argue for outpatient commitment laws before public bodies.
[...]
Here's what Torrey fails to mention. From the abstract itself: "Violence was classified at 2 severity levels: minor violence, corresponding to simple assault without injury or weapon use; and serious violence, corresponding to assault resulting in injury or involving use of a lethal weapon, threat with a lethal weapon in hand, or sexual assault."
What's interesting to me is that in his press release Torrey is wound up over the fact that most of the minor violence was directed against family members by patients being dragged off to the hospital. Having seen that dynamic play out before in the lives of patients I know, I can assure you that whatever hit mom or dad took from their son was partly driven by mom or dad screaming in their faces. I've seen this before. I wouldn't hit anyone over it, but I can understand how the supercharged dynamic gets out of hand and a shove turns into an assault turns into a crime turns into a poster child for Torrey.
Minor violence was reported in 15.5 percent of the cases or with 217 people. Serious violence was reported in 3.6 percent of the cases or in 49 people. I don't know about you, but I don't feel like seeing discussions about how we grapple with mental illness in this society being driven by 49 people out of 4,000 people in the entire fucking study.
Source: Fuller Torrey is Dangerous
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~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.
Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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spiritualemerg
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Re: Numerology and schizophrenia [Re: spiritualemerg] 1
#7018332 - 06/07/07 07:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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redgreenvines: they are plugged into their own mental state elevator operating system without a manual or qualifications to drive.
Do you have any idea how often I hear statements like this that attempt to comletely nullify who I am as a human being? To be a "schizophrenic" is to be one of the most feared, despised and scapegoated members of human society. I am not sure if you ever truly get used to it but it does give you insight.
I suggest you take two Tonglen and call me in the morning.
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~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.
Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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