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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Icelander]
    #7013280 - 06/05/07 10:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Seven. So much for inner site.

I threw in an innocent non sequitur as a test and you and Hue bit like a hungry bass on a fat worm.

You serious and powerful sorcerer's sure know how to give me a good belly laugh. Nothing like some controlled folly. :rofl2:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7013293 - 06/05/07 10:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I threw in an innocent non sequitur as a test and you and Hue bit like a hungry bass on a fat worm.




Yeah, right. That sounds like the the stuff DeMille published in his book debunking Castaneda, and I suspect that is where you got the point you were trying to make. By the way...I have never used the term sorcerer, shaman, nagual, or magician in reference to myself and I do not consider that I would ever have a snowballs chance in hell at becoming one...IF they exist, but there is no flaw in using ideas that work for ones self effectively.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7013319 - 06/05/07 10:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Also...I have experienced bi-location and I am a Castaneda reader. I do not know why it happened or if it was real, but it happened after ingesting about 1000mcgs of LSD. I did perceive it, however.




Hmmm, let's anaylyze this. A threshold dose of LSD is around 25-50 mcg. The famed Orange Sunshine was reportedly 125 mcg. So you took about 6 to 10 times the normal dosage and your experience was more likely due to:

A. A book you read.

B. Taking many times the normal dosage of the most powerful hallucinogen ever developed.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7013349 - 06/05/07 10:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I agree there could have been many causes, but it did occur. I did have the perception, and it had a lasting impact on my view of the world. I understand the fallacy of considering drug experiences as real, but perceptions are real in the context that they are perceptions. I have also had contact with drug induced entities. I also understand that they were drug induced, but the perception occurred nevertheless.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7013401 - 06/05/07 10:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Finally, before I left that evening, I had to ask him, "Did I really fly,
don Juan?" "That is what you told me. Didn't you?" "I know, don Juan. I
mean, did my body fly? Did I take off like a bird?" "You always ask me
questions I cannot answer. You flew. That is what the second portion of the
devil's weed is for. As you take more of it, you will learn how to fly
perfectly. It is not a simple matter. A man flys with the help of the second
portion of the devil's weed. That is all I can tell you. What you want to
know makes no sense. Birds fly like birds and a man who has taken the
devil's weed flies as such ." "As birds do?" "No, he flies as a man who has
taken the weed." "Then I didn't really fly, don Juan. I flew in my
imagination, in my mind alone. Where was my body?" "In the bushes," he
replied cuttingly, but immediately broke into laughter again. "The trouble
with you is that you understand things in only one way. You don't think a
man flies; and yet a brujo can move a thousand miles in one second to see
what is going on. He can deliver a blow to his enemies long distances away.
So, does he or doesn't he fly?" "You see, don Juan, you and I are
differently oriented. Suppose, for the sake of argument, one of my fellow
students had been here with me when I took the devil's weed. Would he have
been able to see me flying?" "There you go again with your questions about
what would happen if . . . It is useless to talk that way. If your friend,
or anybody else, takes the second portion of the weed all he can do is fly.
Now, if he had simply watched you, he might have seen you flying, or he
might not. That depends on the man." "But what I mean, don Juan, is that if
you and I look at a bird and see it fly, we agree that it is flying. But if
two of my friends had seen me flying as I did last night, would they have
agreed that I was flying?" "Well, they might have. You agree that birds fly
because you have seen them flying. Flying is a common thing with birds. But
you will not agree on other things birds do, because you have never seen
birds doing them. If your friends knew about men flying with the devil's
weed, then they would agree." "Let's put it another way, don Juan. What I
meant to say is that if I had tied myself to a rock with a heavy chain I
would have flown just the same, because my body had nothing to do with my
flying." "If you tie yourself to a rock," he said, "I'm afraid you will have
to fly holding the rock with its heavy chain."




--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7013403 - 06/05/07 10:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, right. That sounds like the the stuff DeMille published in his book debunking Castaneda, and I suspect that is where you got the point you were trying to make.



Wrong again. Never read the Demille book. Try to get one right when deciphering me.

Quote:

By the way...I have never used the term sorcerer, shaman, nagual, or magician in reference to myself and I do not consider that I would ever have a snowballs chance in hell at becoming one...



No, but Castaneda did - and they were allegedly written as somewhat of a How-to book, not merely metaphorical entertainment. And if a devout follower like yourself has little chance, then what does that tell us of the book's methods? Either the author was a poor transmitter or he was making stuff up.

As the efficacy ot utilizing bits and pieces in your life - that is all fine. But the books main core was sorcery.


--------------------


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7013443 - 06/05/07 10:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Never read the Demille book.




I was mistaken then. I was thinking of Swami. In a discussion about a year ago he brought up DeMille's name in reference to erroneous data he believed was in the Castaneda books.

Quote:

But the books main core was sorcery.




I personally believe that such a thing may be possible, but to pick it up from a book would be ridiculous. Now my definition of a sorcerer and yours would differ. I see the sorcerer as an expert interpreter and utilizer of non-rational experience. Now, if I use what I find that is useful then I am not necessarily trying to claim that crown, but merely looking for ideas. Some of the ideas in Castaneda's books I cannot relate to...such as jumping off of a 2000 foot cliff and dreaming myself elsewhere. I will hold off on that one...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7013498 - 06/05/07 10:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I was mistaken then. I was thinking of Swami.



0 for 3.

Quote:

In a discussion about a year ago he brought up DeMille's name in reference to erroneous data he believed was in the Castaneda books.




A Google search brings the DeMille name up which is different than actively searching out and buying/borrowing and reading his book.


--------------------


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7014668 - 06/06/07 06:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

A Google search brings the DeMille name up which is different than actively searching out and buying/borrowing and reading his book.




My conclusion was based on the fact that this name was once presented to me as evidence of Castaneda's misrepresentation. If you haven't read it then there isn't much to say about it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7014978 - 06/06/07 11:03 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Seven. So much for inner site.

I threw in an innocent non sequitur as a test and you and Hue bit like a hungry bass on a fat worm.

You serious and powerful sorcerer's sure know how to give me a good belly laugh. Nothing like some controlled folly. :rofl2:




I responded to your post. When you don't like or have a response to the post then you switch tactics. Very skillful of you.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7014983 - 06/06/07 11:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)


I was mistaken then. I was thinking of Swami. In a discussion about a year ago he brought up DeMille's name in reference to erroneous data he believed was in the Castaneda books.


oops :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7015002 - 06/06/07 11:11 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

As the efficacy ot utilizing bits and pieces in your life - that is all fine.


This is all that matters. This point has always seemed to bypass you. All spiritual and religious writing is mostly fictional IMO. The trick is having the discernment to find something there that is not. Some people never develope this skill and some (like me) develope it partially.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Icelander]
    #7015533 - 06/06/07 02:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

This point has always seemed to bypass you.




Not at all. However the CORE of the books is on sorcery and to my knowledge not a single reader has been able to duplicate the outrageous feats claimed. If I buy a book on carpentry, I ACTUALLY want to learn carpentry. And I expect a book labelled non-fiction to basically be non-fiction.

Your defense reminds me of watching the 'chi' videos. A defender might say, "OK, he really can't do magic, but notice how clean his dojo is and how respectful his students are." Nice, but not central.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7015565 - 06/06/07 03:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Disagree.

The central points which are repeated ad nauseam in the books are, losing self importance, using death as an adviser, choosing a path with heart, accepting responsibility for yourself. These are the core ideas IMO. Nobody would buy a book just stating these basic ideas. :rofl2: Nobody wants to do them. Anyone expecting even to look into the more far fetched ideas he presents would have to have mastered the preliminaries of the so called warriors way. Nobody does that of course. In fact most people it seems are looking for any excuse to not be responsible for the state they find themselves in. Know what I mean?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Icelander]
    #7015609 - 06/06/07 03:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The central points which are repeated ad nauseam in the books




And seem to require a 'fresh' thread in P&S covering the books every 4 months. *yawn*

Quote:

In fact most people it seems are looking for any excuse to not be responsible for the state they find themselves in. Know what I mean?



Not exactly. Are the Tsunami victims of 2004 not actually victims and responsible for losing home and family? No, wait. You must be talking about emotions. Are humans responsible for having biologically evolved in a certain way to have feelings that other creatures don't?

If the line of responsibility cannot be drawn with any clarity between attitude and circumstance, perhaps it is also fiction. Whip a dog daily when it is a pup and it will either be mean and viscious or fearful and withdrawn, but NEVER happy & balanced. What does that tell us about external influence?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7015672 - 06/06/07 03:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Or disciplined and respectful. All depends on how you whip and if your training it properly. You skew the results to make it seem as if a negative is bound to occur as a result of external influences.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7015691 - 06/06/07 03:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I'm talking about emotions; although those surviving Tsunami "victims" will still have to make choices on how to deal with what has happened. Some will give up and bemoan their fate and others will move ahead with purpose.

What does that tell us about external influence?

It tells me it's there. Now it's up to me to attempt to change whatever I am able and to find a way to offset the rest. Otherwise I just sit around and whine about my miserable fate while life passes me by.

Dogs and humans don't have the same mental abilities so the comparison isn't really valid.

I draw my own line between attitude and circumstance. Each of us does as life isn't black and white. The best choice for me is to accept life as it presents itself as best I can. Whining and carrying a grudge against life didn't work out that well for me. It took everything and made it flat and lonely. I might have stayed that way but my cubic centimeter of chance popped up one day and I grabbed it.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Icelander]
    #7015708 - 06/06/07 03:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Some will give up and bemoan their fate and others will move ahead with purpose.



Some men are born with great physical strength and others are weak and sickly; some are talented with numbers; some with art and so forth, yet all of us are 'supposed' to have equal emotional strength?

Quote:

Dogs and humans don't have the same mental abilities so the comparison isn't really valid.



But it is. People beaten as children are more prone to violence and to beating their own children.

Quote:

I might have stayed that way but my cubic centimeter of chance popped up one day and I grabbed it.



My 'chance' is a little larger than a cubic centimeter. :penis: Your MMV...






--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7015871 - 06/06/07 04:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Some men are born with great physical strength and others are weak and sickly; some are talented with numbers; some with art and so forth, yet all of us are 'supposed' to have equal emotional strength?


Doubtful. Not all strong men are equal, not all sickly are equally sick. Not all have equal math talent and not all artists are equally talented. You make the best of what you have. It's almost always more than we tell ourselves.

But it is. People beaten as children are more prone to violence and to beating their own children.

No it isn't. While children abused are prone to violence not all go that route. Some find a way to re pattern themselves. They become at least up to comparative standards, healthy.

My 'chance' is a little larger than a cubic centimeter. Your MMV...


Prove it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: The Dark Legacy of Carlos Castaneda [Re: Icelander]
    #7018039 - 06/07/07 05:07 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

oh it is on!


--------------------


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