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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
The Soul And The Monster
    #7003360 - 06/03/07 03:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I've been told that even though there is no evidence for the existence of God, the anecdotal evidence from those who have intangible knowledge of him is enough to form a belief and even make life changing decisions.

In other words, no one has ever seen, photographed, captured, measured, weighed, or chemically analyzed God, but they have some vague feeling, or drugged out experience, or dream or [fill in the subjective blank] and despite the non-evidence, they believe with certainty.

What about the Flying Spaghetti Monster who, just like for god, some people have professed intangible knowledge of.

Why do so many people believe in God, but so few believe in the FSM. Is this some kind of religious bigotry? I mean, in the end, both are similar implausible concepts, both have no supporting objective evidence, and both have proponents who claim to have a mystical link.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7003378 - 06/03/07 03:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If I should happen to experience his noodly presence first-hand, I'll be sure to pray to him.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Silversoul]
    #7003409 - 06/03/07 03:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think assigning high confidence to a highly subjective thing such as 'experiencing God' to such an extent that you allow it to frame your life philosophy is a mistake.

Humans are very good at kidding themselves, especially when they want something to be true. If I didn't know this, I might let subjective experience guide my outlook more, but I know all humans are gullible suckers and always have been. We can be fooled by ourselves as easily as by a someone selling snake oil.

I'm always on guard against both possibilities.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7003437 - 06/03/07 04:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I think assigning high confidence to a highly subjective thing such as 'experiencing God' to such an extent that you allow it to frame your life philosophy is a mistake.



I think assigning high confidence to anyone else's interpretation of reality is an equally big mistake. To be honest, I don't believe 100% in my experiences. I just consider them to be part of my reality tunnel, and I'm following them where they lead me. I've found it's lead to a much more fulfilling and meaningful life than shutting out any experience that some infallible authority called "science" hasn't put into its official canon yet.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Silversoul]
    #7003448 - 06/03/07 04:05 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Why do you pick on science like that? Science says nothing one way or another about mystical experiences.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7003456 - 06/03/07 04:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why do you pick on science like that? Science says nothing one way or another about mystical experiences.



Well, there's science in theory and science in practice. In practice, scientists can be as dogmatic as the pope or Pat Robertson. My real beef is with what I call "Scientism": The belief that if science has not confirmed something, it is not worth considering.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Silversoul]
    #7003537 - 06/03/07 04:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In practice, scientists can be as dogmatic as the pope or Pat Robertson.

Well, this is true, but they're not doing science at that point.

The belief that if science has not confirmed something, it is not worth considering.

For the record, and despite appearances, I don't buy into that idea. :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7003580 - 06/03/07 04:42 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think to state that there is nothing mystical about this universe, is kind of like saying we are the only sentient beings in this universe.
As far as the average person goes, or scientist for that matter, there is no more proof for ET's than God or such.
An argument can be made that there is just so much universe and how we know basically nothing beyond our solar system outside of knowing which gases a planet has on it or a star is burning.... but the human experience is as infinite as the universe..... but I am willing to bet that the majority of scientists or self-proclaimed logiscians would pick to believe in aliens over the possibility of mystical experiences.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7003643 - 06/03/07 05:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

there is no more proof for ET's than God or such

But there is evidence that life arose in at least one place. There is also evidence that the conditions in that one place exist in other places. So it's reasonable to conclude that there probably is life elsewhere.

Not so for God. Like the FSM, God has never been seen anywhere.

how we know basically nothing beyond our solar system outside of knowing which gases a planet has on it or a star is burning

This isn't true. The gas composition of stars can be determined from the star's spectra. Transmission spectra can be used to glean the atmospheric composition of planets surrounding those stars. Extrapolation can be used to guide the hypothesis that if at least SOME nearby extrasolar planets similar to Earth exist, there are likely many others too far for us to see at the moment.

This is the difference between science and irrational mystical belief in something not in evidence and in which others hold contradicting beliefs based on the same evidence.

Even when scientists come to different conclusions based on the same evidence, the disparity is temporary. As more evidence is found leaning one way or another, other scientists realize their beliefs must have been wrong in light of the new evidence.

Not so for mystical beliefs. They are static, like dogma.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7003885 - 06/03/07 06:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I've been told that even though there is no evidence for the existence of God, the anecdotal evidence from those who have intangible knowledge of him is enough to form a belief and even make life changing decisions.

In other words, no one has ever seen, photographed, captured, measured, weighed, or chemically analyzed God, but they have some vague feeling, or drugged out experience, or dream or [fill in the subjective blank] and despite the non-evidence, they believe with certainty.

What about the Flying Spaghetti Monster who, just like for god, some people have professed intangible knowledge of.

Why do so many people believe in God, but so few believe in the FSM. Is this some kind of religious bigotry? I mean, in the end, both are similar implausible concepts, both have no supporting objective evidence, and both have proponents who claim to have a mystical link.




Man has created God in his own image. Therefore only Italians would consider the FSM as a suitable image for God. Since Italians never use psychedelics, there are none here to take up the FSM cause. But if you ever travel to Italy you will find many statues of him/her/it in the cathedrals there. (Or so I've heard)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Icelander]
    #7003911 - 06/03/07 06:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I got it! God is a flying Arroz con Pollo! :yesnod:

It's a Cuban dish for the culturally challenged.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7003920 - 06/03/07 06:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would love to partake of the eucharist.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Icelander]
    #7003931 - 06/03/07 06:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I surmise that the only real "proof" of God's existence would involve meeting him face-to-face.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Mr.Al]
    #7003939 - 06/03/07 06:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Him?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Icelander]
    #7003944 - 06/03/07 06:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I like my God more like arroz con leche.  Mmm.  Cinnamon.:cheers:


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7003962 - 06/03/07 06:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The best proof of god is existence itslef.

How else could there be all 'this'...?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: nolongerinuse]
    #7003995 - 06/03/07 06:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

So, you're saying all of this couldn't exist without a creator, God.

So, who created God? How else could God exist? :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Mr.Al]
    #7004015 - 06/03/07 06:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

yes...


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Mr.Al]
    #7004032 - 06/03/07 06:40 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would say that the only thing that could have created GOD was lots and lots of DRUGS!


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Mr.Al]
    #7004062 - 06/03/07 06:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

God as a product of evolution and drugs being the catalyst for learning how to perceive in a different fashion and through understanding gained through altered perception have total (all) power over his environment (reality!). But that's just the drugs talking.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7004077 - 06/03/07 06:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I got it! God is a flying Arroz con Pollo! :yesnod:

It's a Cuban dish for the culturally challenged.




What about the vegetarian's God?  Perhaps Arroz con Tempeh?  :lol:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Veritas]
    #7004091 - 06/03/07 06:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

God is NOT vegetarian. I experienced this and know it 100% for a fact! :noway:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7004097 - 06/03/07 06:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It's a good thing I'm not religious, then.  :smirk:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Veritas]
    #7004117 - 06/03/07 06:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i have a chicken deficiency


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7004144 - 06/03/07 06:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps you could take "communion" at Diploid's church?  :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Mr.Al]
    #7004599 - 06/03/07 08:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I would say that the only thing that could have created GOD was lots and lots of DRUGS!




:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Mr.Al]
    #7004604 - 06/03/07 09:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
God as a product of evolution and drugs being the catalyst for learning how to perceive in a different fashion and through understanding gained through altered perception have total (all) power over his environment (reality!).  But that's just the drugs talking.




:tongue::tongue::crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Silversoul]
    #7004695 - 06/03/07 09:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think assigning high confidence to anyone else's interpretation of reality is an equally big mistake.  To be honest, I don't believe 100% in my experiences.  I just consider them to be part of my reality tunnel, and I'm following them where they lead me.  I've found it's lead to a much more fulfilling and meaningful life than shutting out any experience that some infallible authority called "science" hasn't put into its official canon yet.




Quote:

Silversoul said:
Well, there's science in theory and science in practice.  In practice, scientists can be as dogmatic as the pope or Pat Robertson.  My real beef is with what I call "Scientism":  The belief that if science has not confirmed something, it is not worth considering.




Nice....    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7004860 - 06/03/07 09:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Its just a discordian trick to lure you off the trail and to fool you into not even believing in Eris the one and only god among the gods.

I agree with Silversoul in way of scientists being overly dogmatic, attempting to force feed people on the basis of all their work, however i do tend to give them more merit then the pope as they at least attempt to dispose of their dogma with a more ritualistic approach to logic (of course not all of them).... however before just discounting god, just ask yourself who and or what created everything, where all the base material began.... it matters not what you directly believe in, whether the big bang, or some other cosmological theory, or on the basis of parallel universes. It leads you to the conclusion through the use of our logic that everything had to come from something as that is just our capacity to reason, or everything existed for all time with no beginning and therefore no end (more on a tangent line of thought and cyclical logic)... It also begets the question of the gods for the gods paradigm wherein god is created by god, by a god, by a god ad infinitum, which only predisposes the situation in its entirity to the oriiginal god of gods, which only further ensnares logic.

Either way thats where god lies, whatever else you attribute to his nature such as being male, or if they procreate with humans, or being the sole province for morality etc... is up to you and relatively pointless and mere speculation without evidence. (just my opinion) a hat is a hat till you begin talking about its life history, where its been, where its traveled etc... the main point is that we tend to add superfluous details that are merely assumed on the basis of experience and that where all the trouble tends to begin as we travel through logical loopholes that we can't even concede to logic as it exists in our daily lives and bend our rational to suit our tastes.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (06/03/07 10:04 PM)


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7006553 - 06/04/07 08:53 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I've been told that even though there is no evidence for the existence of God, the anecdotal evidence from those who have intangible knowledge of him is enough to form a belief and even make life changing decisions.

In other words, no one has ever seen, photographed, captured, measured, weighed, or chemically analyzed God, but they have some vague feeling, or drugged out experience, or dream or [fill in the subjective blank] and despite the non-evidence, they believe with certainty.

What about the Flying Spaghetti Monster who, just like for god, some people have professed intangible knowledge of.

Why do so many people believe in God, but so few believe in the FSM. Is this some kind of religious bigotry? I mean, in the end, both are similar implausible concepts, both have no supporting objective evidence, and both have proponents who claim to have a mystical link.




People believe in god because they have been told that god exists. whether god exists is debatable...the absence of something does not imply that it does not exist.

you think what you want, religious people think what they want. you are no more correct than they are, and both assumptions operate under the same line of thinking; that is, you believe that your way of viewing the world is correct. you were told to think this way, and so you do, just like religious people were told to think one way and they did. maybe you got more than one perspective, and maybe they did too, but you still took in some form of thinking as the 'correct way to be'

so how are you different? you operate on one set of ideas while religious people operate on another set of ideas. Ideas are learnt, it doesn't necessarily make them true.

let me put it this way, do you feel that your way of thinking is 100% correct?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7006582 - 06/04/07 09:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so how are you different?

I form beliefs through critical thought and study of available evidence. Believers just believe. Indeed, some believe in demonstrably false things (like prayer healing) yet despite the fact that it doesn't work, they believe anyway.

That's how we're different. Although the question of God's existence currently cannot be answered, the question of prayer healing can and has been.

let me put it this way, do you feel that your way of thinking is 100% correct?

Don't be silly. Of course not, and I've said as much in several posts.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7006627 - 06/04/07 09:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"I form beliefs through critical thought and study of available evidence."


And my statement again resides on that 'form' of thought.  you have critical thought based on evidence done through extensive research.  keep in mind, that's how I form my beliefs as well.  However, this does not translate into a belief that critical thought and study of available evidence is the only 'correct' way to trust in something.

and here's why...

too many times we as humans use logic and critical analysis to develop our way of understanding the world.  Now maybe the process of logic is not correct, but having full trust to the point that you disregard an idea that has no physical evidence is falling into the same line of thinking that 'religious' people have.  why?  it is because we as humans do not and cannot know everything about the world.  Many times we come about towards conclusion that later on are not correct because we did not know all of the information. If you have ruled out the existence of a monotheistic god, then you are trusting fully in your own way of thinking which holds just as much weight as any other belief. 

you ask why do people believe in god more than the spaghetti monster.  it's easy, because more people have been told to think this way.  Going along my same point, you and I have also been told that critical thinking based on empirical evidence is the only way to develop trust. We chose to take that in as the way to carry out our lives, just like  christians do. 

whether you base it on empirical evidence, or a gut feeling, we really are not that different.  I sometimes think that believing in these differences can lead to assumptions about others which might not be there to begin with.

does that makes sense to you or should I try putting it in another way..note I'm not trying to be condescending here :laugh:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7006876 - 06/04/07 11:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

you are no more correct than they are,

I think it would be correct to say instead. "You can't know if you are more correct than they are". One or the other might be more correct. We just may never know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7007117 - 06/04/07 12:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I form beliefs through critical thought and study of available evidence. Believers just believe.




Don't make it sound so baseless....!
Some believers critically believe based on subjective/personal evidence/experience....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7007742 - 06/04/07 03:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It is, because the kind of people you describe and who averse god like a spaghetti monster have a much more stiff, straight, described and defined view of what GOD should be to refuse G*D, than those who believe in and experience(d) what g*d might be.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7007865 - 06/04/07 03:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

whether you base it on empirical evidence, or a gut feeling, we really are not that different.




Nonsense. We ALWAYS communicate here using LOGIC-BASED devices. You travel in a LOGIC-BASED device. You eat food farmed using LOGIC-BASED methods. Your domicile was constructed using LOGIC-BASED devices and methods.

How can the logician be more certain that his views are correct? They work.

How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out.

How can the logician be more certain that his view of the Cosmos is more correct? It is called 'history'. Every paranormal claim that can be tested has been tested and failed.

What about myth and religion? Simple. Many myths and beliefs that people were 100% CERTAIN of, have been dispelled for all time. Many religions that people were certain of - have zero credence today.

Sorry, the logician is much more grounded and the believer is stuck in an ephemeral flight of fancy. Their mindsets are not even vaguely similar.


--------------------


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7007920 - 06/04/07 04:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Is there such thing as an artistic logician?? Or a logic artist??


--------------------


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7008294 - 06/04/07 05:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yes there isn't.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Icelander]
    #7008444 - 06/04/07 05:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:blazed:


--------------------


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7008464 - 06/04/07 05:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
so how are you different?

I form beliefs through critical thought and study of available evidence. Believers just believe. Indeed, some believe in demonstrably false things (like prayer healing) yet despite the fact that it doesn't work, they believe anyway.

That's how we're different. Although the question of God's existence currently cannot be answered, the question of prayer healing can and has been.

let me put it this way, do you feel that your way of thinking is 100% correct?

Don't be silly. Of course not, and I've said as much in several posts.




Let me inject a thought or 2 here.
1. it seems to me that there has always existed 2 dichotomous thought process in humans; one that is entirely logically based, and one that is non logic concept based. Where did this come from?
I can imagine that some humans, say 30,000 years ago, traveling in a group or tribe, lose a companion.

The logical group might say: "well, that's it for Grunt, he's gone, end of story. Bye!

The non logical mind might sit around the fire wondering what happens to Grunt now? Will I ever see him again? Will he need his spear and flint where he is going? This can't be all there is to Grunt and existence.

The point is, beliefs are powerful mental projections that can make no sense at all to some, and be the very core of existence for others.
If a belief does not make sense, so what? Has it hurt anyone anymore than the same twisted desecration of other humans that non-believers have imposed and executed? I think not.

People will believe in whatever resonates with their particular sense of proprietary, whether it is logical or not. It is not for the logical mind to dismiss and ridicule the non-logical.

The question of whether God exists in fact is immaterial. What matters is what appeals and drives acceptance of belief or non-belief to the individual.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: hummermania00]
    #7008533 - 06/04/07 06:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hummermania00 said:
If a belief does not make sense, so what? Has it hurt anyone anymore than the same twisted desecration of other humans that non-believers have imposed and executed? I think not.




You will most likely get the "holy war" smackdown for this part....  :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: hummermania00]
    #7008840 - 06/04/07 07:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The question of whether God exists in fact is immaterial.

This is why charlatans (PeterPopoff) who claim to read your mind through God and heal you with God's magic touch, and fake psychics (Sylvia Brown) who prey on grieving people when their loved ones go missing, and even Muslim terrorists all have a huge following of mindless drones who inexplicably accept as true things not in evidence because "whether or not they exists is immaterial". :shrug:

Has it hurt anyone

See above.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7008882 - 06/04/07 07:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:yesnod: :thumbup: The unknown drives it though, and an utter lack of true comprehension, or an apathy to attempt to achieve it. Can you really blame all those for attempting a comfortable easily explained and digested view of life and therefore a consonant form of happiness?

To be perfectly honest some part of me still wishes that i could believe in god.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: hummermania00]
    #7009124 - 06/04/07 08:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The non logical mind might sit around the fire wondering what happens to Grunt now? Will I ever see him again? Will he need his spear and flint where he is going? This can't be all there is to Grunt and existence.





Poor, poor Grunt. :dying: :cryariver:


--------------------


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7009208 - 06/04/07 08:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Nonsense. We ALWAYS communicate here using LOGIC-BASED devices. You travel in a LOGIC-BASED device. You eat food farmed using LOGIC-BASED methods. Your domicile was constructed using LOGIC-BASED devices and methods."

very general...please explain more by what you mean as 'logic based devices' If we are always basing our decisions on logic, then you have prove my point more so; that is, we are not all that different. However if this is not the case, then why is it that people can be 'illogical' then if we are always using logic-based devices?

"How can the logician be more certain that his views are correct? They work."

this is not true because there are many many times that our logic, however well research, end up being wrong. I stated this before, it has to deal with the fact that there was something else, some other piece of information that you do NOT know. And that's my point, you cannot know the inner workings of everything around us. However based on empirical evidence your ideas may be, they are by no means 100% correct. In this regard, YOU CANNOT SAY with 100% accuracy that ideas based on science are more true than a religious person's belief system.

"How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out."

And there is a system to many of these games that if, YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, then you can have better chances at winning.

"How can the logician be more certain that his view of the Cosmos is more correct? It is called 'history'. Every paranormal claim that can be tested has been tested and failed."

1) history has been distorted throughout time. even YOU should know that. people have invested interest in stake a lot of the time and history gets distorted. a person who bases his ideas as BETTER on something so VAST as the 'COSMOS' than a religious person is deluding him/herself. you, nor I, no anyone has any fucking clue. those who say 'my way is better, or more accurate is using the same frame of thinking that a 'believer' has.

And your idea about paranormal claim is a generalisation, why...BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERY PARANORMAL CLAIM. you do not have all the information available to you that you can actually justify your claim.

"Sorry, the logician is much more grounded and the believer is stuck in an ephemeral flight of fancy. Their mindsets are not even vaguely similar."

I have found your statements displaying this same 'flight of fancy' you fancy that a logician is more correct when I have clearly shown the opposite.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7009244 - 06/04/07 08:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

We communicate here using a logic-based device: computer
We travel in logic-based devices: cars, trains, planes, boats, etc...

While the ideas we communicate via our computers may be illogical, this does not alter the nature of the device.

Quote:

"How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out."

And there is a system to many of these games that if, YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, then you can have better chances at winning.




Hmmm...so a system based on logic can be used to improve your chances of winning? How does this contradict his statement? Or are you asserting that there is a system based on hunches and gut-feelings?


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InvisibleBERSERK DESTROYER
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Veritas]
    #7009257 - 06/04/07 08:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Holding a spiritual belief as a result of your own spiritual experiences isn't a bad thing. Holding a belief because of other people's professed experiences is utterly ridiculous.


--------------------
Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: BERSERK DESTROYER]
    #7009391 - 06/04/07 09:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

From what I've seen, many people who hold spiritual beliefs and claim them to be due to a personal experience are kidding themselves.

Would the average Bible Thumper have the beliefs they have if they'd been born in China instead of middle America's Bible Belt?

Probably not.

And from what I've heard and read, believers in Creation almost universally know absolutely nothing about biology or Evolution. They believe what they've been told, then later they forget this and internalize the belief as if it were a personal and original direct communication from God. And why wouldn't they? War propaganda has a long history of relative success. Just tell someone something enough times, and eventually most will believe it. So it goes for religious propaganda.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Veritas]
    #7010726 - 06/05/07 04:05 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
We communicate here using a logic-based device: computer
We travel in logic-based devices: cars, trains, planes, boats, etc...

While the ideas we communicate via our computers may be illogical, this does not alter the nature of the device.

Quote:

"How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out."

And there is a system to many of these games that if, YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, then you can have better chances at winning.




Hmmm...so a system based on logic can be used to improve your chances of winning?  How does this contradict his statement? Or are you asserting that there is a system based on hunches and gut-feelings?




nah...you are misinterpreting the idea :smile:

read again

"...there are many many times that our logic, however well research, ends up being wrong. I stated this before, it has to deal with the fact that there was something else, some other piece of information that you do NOT know. And that's my point, you cannot know the inner workings of everything around us. However based on empirical evidence your ideas may be, they are by no means 100% correct. In this regard, YOU CANNOT SAY with 100% accuracy that ideas based on science are more true than a religious person's belief system"

And that's what the thread is about; that it is wrong or incorrect to trust in something that there is no evidence for. that one way of thinking is 'better' or 'more correct' than the other because one system uses logic.  I feel that logic is limited because logic needs information to be correct.  Think of the many times you made a decision based on logic and was still wrong.

After all, there's a huge universe out there that we have no idea about. 

in short...who's to say which one is better than the other.  the very fact that one has to question why people believe in souls, or why a person believes in god, or anything like that, shows their 'faith' in logic, which is just another belief system.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlinetools_n_corpses
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7010809 - 06/05/07 05:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Everyone have a read of this:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/maslow.htm

RELGIONS, VALUES & PEAK EXPERIENCES


--------------------
"Misery only doth exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; naught save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.
"


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7011137 - 06/05/07 10:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The question of whether God exists in fact is immaterial.

This is why charlatans (PeterPopoff) who claim to read your mind through God and heal you with God's magic touch, and fake psychics (Sylvia Brown) who prey on grieving people when their loved ones go missing, and even Muslim terrorists all have a huge following of mindless drones who inexplicably accept as true things not in evidence because "whether or not they exists is immaterial". :shrug:

Has it hurt anyone

See above.





Well, all of that is just part of the price that we, as humans, as people with the ability to make choices, have to deal with. It is called diversity. And just because someone makes a choice that others percieve to be illogical, without merit, non-conforming, silly, or stupid; too bad for the perception.
One mans dream is anothers reality, and vice versa.
When it crosses the illegal line then action is taken in some cases.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7011192 - 06/05/07 11:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In this regard, YOU CANNOT SAY with 100% accuracy that ideas based on science are more true than a religious person's belief system"


So nothing can be said to be 100% sure. Fine. And I agree that logic isn't the best tool in all situations.

That's the rub though. One needs to have the basic thinking capacity to know when logic is the best tool and when, lets say, intuitive thinking should rule. But logical thinking takes discipline and work so many choose to ignore it out of laziness. That's the problem I see. Now to believe in a religion with no evidence that is contradictory with logic and evidence is most likely just lazy or something worse. Still in a world where you cannot know ultimate reality one cannot say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7011216 - 06/05/07 11:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why do you pick on science like that? Science says nothing one way or another about mystical experiences.




HOPKINS SCIENTISTS SHOW HALLUCINOGEN IN MUSHROOMS CREATES UNIVERSAL “MYSTICAL” EXPERIENCE


http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

The experience has been around for a while, IMO. Religion uses references to the experience to keep people in line, like dangling the carrot. People are now realizing that religion's God(s) are not the experience at all. Science is proving the existence of the experience which then shines new light on past belief systems helping to illuminate the origin of most of the stories themselves.


--------------------


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7011270 - 06/05/07 11:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No, I am not "misinterpreting the idea," I think that you do not understand what OC was posting. None of the technology we take advantage of on a daily basis would exist without logic.

The use of "gut feelings" in gambling is likely to lose you all your money, whereas applying a logical understanding of the rules and patterns of the games can result in winning more than you lose.

If you want to claim that logic is just as subject to flaws as faith, you will need to do more than assert that logic is not 100% correct 100% of the time. How often is faith correct?

The point here, IMO, is not that logic is perfect, but that it is a more-reliable and accurate method of examining ideas than dogmatic faith.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7012773 - 06/05/07 07:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That report comments on people having experiences, not experiences. I doesn't (and can't) address if those experiences are real or entirely in the head of the tripper.

Science only addresses things that can be tested and for which there is observable evidence. That puts all things mystical squarely outside its scope.

This is not to say that the Scientific Method cannot test mystical claims. Many mystics who claim to predict the future, see auras, astral project, and all the other mumbo jumbo fall flat on their face when tested using the Scientific Method.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7012861 - 06/05/07 07:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"That report comments on people having experiences, not experiences."

??

"The researchers’ message isn’t just that psilocybin can produce mystical experiences. “I had a healthy skepticism going into this,” says Griffiths, “and that finding alone was a surprise.” But, as important, he says, “is that, under very defined conditions, with careful preparation, you can safely and fairly reliably occasion what’s called a primary mystical experience that may lead to positive changes in a person."

Aren't they observing the evidence and testing the theory??

Seems like they are using the Scientific Method to at least test the experience and its effects on some, never mind the claims of others.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7012961 - 06/05/07 08:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

They are commenting on the people having experiences. They say nothing about whether or not the experience is anything but inside the experiencer's head.

The truth of the experience is not testable, so science doesn't say anything about it. Whether or not a lot of people have the experience and its effect on them IS testable. That's what the report comments on.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7013025 - 06/05/07 08:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Wouldn't the experiencer's head be about the only place that the experience could happen?? It is a chemical that you ingest.

What truth of the experience??


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7013053 - 06/05/07 08:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What truth of the experience??

If you eat mushrooms and experience talking to God, either that was REALLY God (true experience) or it was all in your head and there is no God (not-true experience).

The experiencing is real. Science can verify this by looking at your physiological response. The experience itself can't be verified or falsified by science, so science has nothing to say about it.

Griffiths is quick to emphasize the scientific intent of the study. "We’re just measuring what can be observed," he says; "We're not entering into 'Does God exist or not exist.' This work can't and won't go there."


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7013112 - 06/05/07 09:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you experience talking to God(?) something is going on that is not made up, call it what you will.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7013133 - 06/05/07 09:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That's YOUR opinion.

BTW, on my first few trips on psilocybin, I saw God. He was a happy, good-natured, chubby black Jamaican guy with a thick accent and a contagious guffaw. He'd do amazing magic for me, tickle me, whisper in my ear from across the room. Those were some of the best times of my life.

Then I got sober the next day, and there was no trace of him left. No trace at all, and I looked really, really hard. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7013138 - 06/05/07 09:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Where'd you look??


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7013347 - 06/05/07 10:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I saw God. He was a happy, good-natured, chubby black Jamaican guy with a thick accent and a contagious guffaw. He'd do amazing magic for me




I had the SAME EXACT experience, everything you said fits to a "T".....!
Coincodence....?     

I think not.....    :lol:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7014654 - 06/06/07 06:36 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
I saw God. He was a happy, good-natured, chubby black Jamaican guy with a thick accent and a contagious guffaw. He'd do amazing magic for me




I had the SAME EXACT experience, everything you said fits to a "T".....!
Coincodence....?     

I think not.....    :lol:


>^;;^<




You guys know the same god? :what:
Everything happens for a reason :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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